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From Eternity Past

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by netchaplain, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. The intent of this article is not a presumption to know or understand God’s will for mankind, but rather to speculate concerning His control within the entirety of all of His creation. In my opinion, His will must involve complete control (acting according to foreknowledge, e.g. He always knew but not always acted upon creation until His time of choosing to create); otherwise I believe it could be concluded as confusion. Also, please forgive me if this article seems to be disruptive to you in any way.

    From Eternity Past

    Was man supposed to enter into sin (could God say, “They weren’t supposed to do that)? Since God foreknew man would sin and allowed it to transpire, could this be part of His foreknown plans; esp. considering nothing happens without His foreknowledge and the fact that He could have preplanned to disallow it? The issue isn't that man chose to sin, but rather the fact of God’s foreknowledge of it.

    I believe since God is omniscient, every occurrence in this life that He allows to transpire is not only foreknown by Him, but is also taken into consideration as part of His plan, which was foreknown prior to creation—from eternity past. The only alternative is being bereft of the impossibility that God is not omniscient and does not foreknow everything; or He chooses not to know certain things, which would be an even greater impossibility, considering omniscience means “all knowing” (God never had to learn anything but has always foreknown everything—a very comforting thought for the saved).

    To address the above concept, two prominent and unavoidable elements must be examined and if done rightly, it may serve as a base. These are; God’s will and God’s desire. In a general sense these two terms can intend identical definitions, depending upon the context, as all words do; but their specific sense varies according to usage.

    The specific intention of “God’s will” concerns His “ways,” which are “past finding out” (Rom 11:33). Even though He is “not willing (desirous) that any should perish” (2 Pet 3:9), and “Who will have (wills or desires to have) all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), He foreknew the generality of mankind would perish (Matt 7:13, 14). For “He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him” (John 1:11). This passage has direct reference to the Jews but may also be applied indirectly to the rest of the world when considering “The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof” (1 Cor 10:26, 28).

    For example, the “will of God” is that all who receive His Son inherit eternal life (John 1:12). Now, if He chooses not to grant the same for those who do not want to believe, this cannot be attributed as being partial (Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9). Partiality can only be attributed if He broke His will for the unbelieving and granted them eternal life, which would disregard His will.

    Therefore concerning the controlling-factor of God (the crux of this article), everyone is an active subject of His will, but not an active subject of His desire!

    KingJ likes this.
  2. In my opinion, man was allowed to fall so that he might be better than unfallen mankind.
    Which is greater? To be free of sin from birth or to have conquered sin through gifts offered by God?
    Before the fall, Adam was pure, but a complete and utter moron.
    The Saints, having been tempted and having overcome, have the wisdom that only God can give.
  3. Thanks for your reply and comment which I find interesting, though I wouldn't think it to be necessarily accurate to conclude Adam and Eve as possibly being foolish, since they hypothetically were supposed to sin. What do you think?
  4. Thanks for asking the unanswerable. Haha.
    I would think the primary question would have to be concerning fallen angels before Adam.

    Evidence from scripture shows that angels are witnessing the works of men and are involved in some capacity to aid men in our service to God.

    I had a crazy thought once (well a lot of them), that God created man in God's image to prove something to the angelic host. The evil one who desired to be like God now has before him the created beings of humanity who are lesser in strength and lessor in beauty than he. Satan provided the very same temptation to Eve that was his original undoing, the desire to be like God.
    I can't answer why God limited His sovereignty by allowing the will of the evil one to fall. One day you can tell me I told you so. :)
  5. Thanks for you reply and your comment is also interesting concerning, "the very same temptation to Eve that was his original undoing, the desire to be like God" because Eve desiring "to make one wise" (Gen 3:6) does have a degree of parallelism to Satan's claim (3:5).

    I believe the angelic realm is inferior to the position of redeemed humans, because only man was created after God's image and are "heirs of salvation" (Heb 1:14), which involves a faith consisting without physical proof. I believe the angelic order is not within the realm of salvation because they have seen and been with God. What do you think?
    JustPassingThru likes this.
  6. ..yet he named all of the animals brought before him, he understood horticulture, he knew how to start a fire and he knew how to produce leaven to make his bread on that fire.

    Yes, there seems to be Scriptural evidence to that idea, the book of Job is about God's honor and I once heard the creation, fall and redemption of mankind is a response to an accusation (which is not found in Scripture) against Him of not being Love and not being Just.

    Personally I think they had a choice to make before Adam and Eve were created, 1/3 chose to follow Lucifer and the other 2/3 chose to stay with God.


  7. then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God,
  8. Supposed to sin? Not sure I follow you.

    Adam and Eve were innocent (in the original meaning of the word).
    God would have beings that are faithful through their own free choice and wise.
    You cannot have wisdom and innocence, they are mutually exclusive.
  9. That's why I posted the question, "Can God say they weren't supposed to sin, considering He knew they would?
  10. The Eternal God is omniscient, wise, and clever.
    They were not supposed to sin, but God knew they would.
    By having fallen, we were given the opportunity not only to freely choose God,
    but to become greater than our natural state due to the gifts that God would freely give to those
    that choose to serve Him.
  11. I think I understand your point, and I also understand that claiming they were supposed to sin doesn't sound right or sensible, but there was no alternative, because regardless of everything--since they sinned it wasn't supposed to happen any other way or it would have; nor would it have been part of His salvation plan, which "was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1 Pet 1:20).
  12. I think I understand your point, and I also understand that claiming they were supposed to sin doesn't sound right or sensible, but there was no alternative, because regardless of everything--since they sinned it wasn't supposed to happen any other way or it would have; nor would it have been part of His salvation plan, which "was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1 Pet 1:20).
  13. Nothing happens outside of God's sovereign will. This included allowing for the fall to take place. Obviously God can and does place limits on His sovereign will and this is how the permissive will of God allowed for the fall.

    An example of God placing limitations on His own sovereignty is with the flood. Can God destroy the earth again with a flood? Does He have the capacity to do this? Yes. Will He destroy the earth again with a flood? No because He said He wouldn't do it that way again so God can place self limitations on Himself.

    I can't think this thru any further so help a brutha out..
  14. Hi IJ - You're doing pretty okay! Myself, I don't see it as a fall (no Scripture reference), since it's part of His plan. It's not like they were not suppose to sin, or be perfect, God's plan for that is latter. The only alternative that this was not part of His plan is that He didn't foreknow it, which is surly not the truth (1 Pet 1:20).

    Just as He knew He would eventually covered Adam and Eve with "coats of skins" (Gen 3:21), He also knew He would cover the believers with His Son's blood!

    I believe the concept of the imperfection of Adam and Eve is only a recent concept, because I believe the Body is approaching a clearer understanding (by His Spirit) concerning the depths of the decadence of our "old man." I believe He can only show us the heights of His holiness by showing us the depths of sin.
  15. Boy I've seen a lot of that
  16. Boy I've seen a lot of that
  17. Interesting way to see it in the OP Net. Will vs desire seems to make sense. I prefer to just see God as He defines Himself and avoid filling in the blanks with assumptions. God says ''He is'', ''I am''. Never in this lifetime will we grasp how He came into existence. Likewise we may never grasp how a sovereign, omniscient God can be impartial. But that is what scripture says and we have to accept it and not fill in the blanks with our assumptions. 5 pt Calvinists like to downplay James 2 and Acts 10:34 but they need to do alot more then that as .....a just God cannot be partial. A righteous God cannot be partial. A good God cannot be partial. A merciful / longsuffering God cannot be partial. A God that relents from sending calamity and wills that none should perish cannot be partial.

    God is omniscient and impartial at the same time. Nobody judges God because He is perfect / impartial. If He was partial we would judge Him as evil. In fact....the devil would still be the covering cherub in heaven if God was partial :). Hell is proof of God's impartiality and our true free will. As no babies go to hell, we know that something happens of our own doing when we reach the age of accountability that would cause us to go there. The alternatives of believing God sends babies to hell or we are justified to kill babies are simply mad. That is the territory Calvinists suggest but dodge admitting.

    Hence we can be forgiven for saying God does not know who will go to hell. God did not know if Adam would sin. But He did know that there was a likelihood of His creation at such a high intelligence being rebellious / sinning.
  18. High KJ - Thanks for the heart-felt reply. Until the meaning of omniscience is understood there can be no basis of learning many "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven," which "is given unto you to know" (Matt 13:11; Luke 8:10).

    God's omniscience is one of His three primary attributes He wants us to know that are revealed in His Word. The other two are omnipresence and omnipotence, three powers which only Deity can possess and through understanding these we more understand Them. The purpose of this is to know Them as much as possible here, but our understanding now will not compare with that which we will have There.

    God's blessings to your Family!
    KingJ likes this.

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