Ok then..do you have to crucify your flesh daily? Give us your biblical understanding and more than that your struggles against the will that works in you that is contrary to the Spirit of God?I'm okay, I know how to swim.
Free-will Vs The Perfect Work Of Paitience
- Thread starter Mitspa
- Start date
I like what you are saying (as often!).. I don't know if I would read the verse with the same context.. But I think your message is reflected all through NT.. I totally agree with you.. We have to surrender ourselves to His will.. And often we act too fast on our desires rather than waiting on Him.. I think what you have described is a perfect explanation of what people commonly refer to as "waiting upon the Lord"
But I have some questions.. What would be the implication of a person continuously walking on his will rather than His Will? Can a person indwelt by Holy Spirit continuously refuse to yield to His Will? We might disagree here.. But we both certainly agree on the importance of yielding to His Will.. Which is the most important thing..
Don't you think that man giving in to the will of God would be considered and act of humbleness?
Probably the most asked question to me is something like......."How do I know the will of God?"
Then that leads me to ask .....why all of the mystery? Why all of the tension? Why tears and pressure and fasting?
I am sure that many will not agree with me and that is OK because I am not even sure of this myself. I think that the Lord is more interested in revealing Himself to us than simply revealing details about Himself to us. I just can not believe that God wants to act like an information center in our lives. To me, it seems as if He wants to be involved in our lives in most intimate of ways through a relationship that revolves around faith and trust.
In tough times when the pressure is on and we begin to ask more questions when we are seeing God's will for us, He has the intention of drawing us into a more personal and intimate relationship with Him.
I completely agree.. Lord is more interested in being involved in our lives rather than just being an outsider helping us out.. At the same time, you raise a great question.. How do I know the will of God!! We talk about giving into will of God.. But what is the will of God?
You will agree with me.. Revealed will of God is His Word.. His secret will is secret! If we know what it is, then we cannot call it secret will! And we cannot say there is nothing like secret will.. Then that person should first tell me why God created me!
When we have choices in life, the most important thing from our perspective should be walking in the revealed will of God.. Then we don't have to sweat about the secret will of God.. Because he is not going to reveal it to us! And when we talk in His revealed will, He will take us in the right path..
That is why I liked the way Mitspa quoted it.. Not sure if that is what he meant! We should deny ourselves, our desires of the flesh to align with His Will.. Which He has revealed through His Word.. When we do that, a relationship develops and He will then take us through and reveal greater things.. Giving answers on why we have to go through certain things in life..
But people often take this will of God into a different perspective.. Taking it to the levels of fortune telling magical sphere.. Whatever it is called!!
Well clearly that would be considered what Paul called "sowing to the flesh"..and I think a multitude of warnings could be considered, but the reaping of corruption and the correction of the Lord would be sure to this person. For sure the righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit would not be manifest in such a person.
You know, I am not obedient because I fear the penalty for disobedience..although I believe it wise to always remember the warnings of scripture, I seek obedience because I know the joy and life that comes from walking in Gods Will. I cannot imagine a life that is not full of Gods Joy and peace? I know that as I walk in His Ways these good things are abounding in me and are of more value to me, than silver or gold or any other thing in this world. I love Him, because He first loves me... that is obedience...
That 10 years ago idea is your thing - the finished death is a real, living fact at any time. That is why we "..always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body." 2 Corinthians 4:10.
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh,"4 in order that the righteous requirement. of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. [Hostile to God, unable to submit to God's law? How then could these people be born of the Spirit (saved) and yet be unable to submit to God? At least the saved have the ability or choice to please God!] 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e]his Spirit who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. " Romans 8:3-14.
And so Christ Jesus "condemned sin in the flesh.." And that is the key! For without that condemnation of sin in the flesh (the death of the old man!) we are still slaves to sin! And slaves to sin can not pursue righteousness! The mind of flesh is unable to please God or submit to His law. ""For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin—7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." Romans 6:6-7" No finished death, no freedom from sin.
Does being in the world mean we are worldly? No. We are in the world, but not of it. Does living in these bodies of flesh mean we are fleshly? No.....in the flesh, but not of it! "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it." Romans 8:12.
For once the sin nature of our flesh has been condemned and put to death through Jesus Christ, our flesh is a tent our spirits live in while we dwell on this earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands." 2 Corinthians 5:1. "I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body," 2 Peter 1:13. This flesh becomes our servant. "No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." 1 Corinthians 9:27. We then have authority over it and no longer must be ruled by our flesh. Gone is the fleshly mind - for we have the mind of Christ. "for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:16.
Even our Lord walked in a tent of flesh....a fleshly body. Would anyone dare say he had a living sin nature when in that flesh? And our Lord......is the Firstborn among many.....our example! "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14.
"Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:34-36. Again...it comes down to one thing - the old man is either dead or he isn't. For as long as he is alive one is a slave to sin, and not a free son of God. One or the other. It can not be a gradual thing.
So one has been freed from being a slave to sin. But God will not force one to walk in the Spirit. One can chose to go back to the old patterns....back to his own vomit. But that choice is there because the rule of the sin nature (and if it is alive it will rule) has been broken. "He condemned sin in the flesh." There is also the fact that a young Christian is not instantly mature. He is born of the seed of Christ "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God." 1 Peter 1:23. But, by the Spirit, he must grow up. "And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:18.
Look I have proven in the clear reading of the scriptures that what you are trying to affirm is unbiblical.. so not sure what else to do to try and help you? You seem to think because you believed 10 years ago that you don't have to believe today? That's just unbiblical and the truth of scriptures is to be walked in everyday until the end..
Your assumption is incorrect. The death happens once. The reality of that death is forever. And one must always believe - I do not think that believing is a one time deal. And it is that death fact I am persisting in - not belief.
But let's call this the end......it isn't going anywhere....
Sorry you are clearly failing to understand how a believer "walks" in the truth.
I have seen it and I "walk'' in it...I am just sorry you could not see Truth.
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily
Ga 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule,
I think both Mitspa and Tressa are correct.
Our sin self is dead and buried upon salvation and we are made alive in Christ. This death of the sin self is by faith. However, not only daily, but moment to moment we must exercise that faith, which allows us to live in God's Spirit and walk as new creations. If the faith is not used then the person walks in their flesh because they are out of faith. This is what perfecting is all about. Surrendering more and more moment to moment to God's will through faith and less and less to being out of faith.
Even when someone steps out of faith however, if a believer they have the Holy Spirit as a guarantee that they are saved and the Holy Spirit brings them more and more into God's will and the light.
In the Holy Spirit which we now are in as believers we are completely perfected. However when a believer walks in their own will, yes they are still in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is in them, but they walk not according to the Holy Spirit (out of God's will) thus according to the past flesh. The perfecting is about abiding in the Spirit and denying the flesh moment to moment.
It is as two realms. The believer can choose to walk in the physical/ spiritual earthly realm or the spiritual realm of God. The believer is always in the spiritual realm of God by the Holy Spirit, but they can choose to also be and act from the earthly spiritual realm as well. The believer is to live from God's spiritual realm here in the earthly realm, not the earthly spiritual in the earthly realm.
Our sin self is dead and buried upon salvation and we are made alive in Christ. This death of the sin self is by faith. However, not only daily, but moment to moment we must exercise that faith, which allows us to live in God's Spirit and walk as new creations. If the faith is not used then the person walks in their flesh because they are out of faith. This is what perfecting is all about. Surrendering more and more moment to moment to God's will through faith and less and less to being out of faith.
Even when someone steps out of faith however, if a believer they have the Holy Spirit as a guarantee that they are saved and the Holy Spirit brings them more and more into God's will and the light.
In the Holy Spirit which we now are in as believers we are completely perfected. However when a believer walks in their own will, yes they are still in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is in them, but they walk not according to the Holy Spirit (out of God's will) thus according to the past flesh. The perfecting is about abiding in the Spirit and denying the flesh moment to moment.
It is as two realms. The believer can choose to walk in the physical/ spiritual earthly realm or the spiritual realm of God. The believer is always in the spiritual realm of God by the Holy Spirit, but they can choose to also be and act from the earthly spiritual realm as well. The believer is to live from God's spiritual realm here in the earthly realm, not the earthly spiritual in the earthly realm.
People often only focus on the one salvation experience (which yes does cause the inner baptism and guarantee of the Holy Spirit), but I think it is important that the faith in salvation must be taught as a continual commitment to that faith. Because so many people don't realize that it is a continuous believing in times of testing they often doubt that God loves them and they doubt their salvation. They get saved and forget that being a new creation is a continuous awakening in them by faith moment to moment.