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Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Christine, May 10, 2011.

  1. 8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus— 10 that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus,[a] who became my son while I was in chains. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.
    12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.
    17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.” – Philemon 1:8-18

    1. It is not murder alone that is forbidden by the 6th commandment; you shall not murder.21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca[1],’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.” – Matt 5:21-22

    2. Whoever has offended you has offended God greater.
    “4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
    and done what is evil in your sight;
    so you are right in your verdict
    and justified when you judge.
    5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
    sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
    6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
    you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

    7 Cleanse me with hyssop[2], and I will be clean;
    wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.”

    You will not get forgiveness from God if you don’t forgive others.
    “12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.

    13 And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from the evil one.’

    14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.– Matt 6:12-15

    If you won’t forgive and seek revenge, you fail to use the authority of God.
    19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.– Romans 12:19
    “It is mine to avenge; I will repay.
    In due time their foot will slip;
    their day of disaster is near
    and their doom rushes upon them.” – Deut. 32:35

    Absence of forgiveness makes you unfit for worship.
    23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.”

    7 “Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the Lord’s people.
    Paul’s Plea for Onesimus
    8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus—….” - Philemon 1:7-9

    Actions of One Who Forgives
    “10 that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus,[a] who became my son while I was in chains. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.
    12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary.” - Philemon 1:10-14
    1. Reception
    22 “Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.” – Coloss. 3:22-24
    A) Repentance
    B) Transformation
    C) Faithful

    2. Restoration
    You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.– Gen 50:20
    “.…no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.– Philemon 1:16

    3. Restitution[3]
    6 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any man or woman who wrongs another in any way and so is unfaithful to the LORD is guilty 7 and must confess the sin they have committed. They must make full restitution for the wrong they have done, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the person they have wronged. 8 But if that person has no close relative to whom restitution can be made for the wrong, the restitution belongs to the LORD and must be given to the priest, along with the ram with which atonement is made for the wrongdoer.– Num 5:6-8
    17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.– Philemon 1:17-18

    [1] Term of contempt

    [2] A plant, perhaps the origan (an herb), where its twigs were used in ceremonial sprinkling.

    [3] giving a compensation for loss, damage, or injury for the cause.

    I spent a good amount of time putting this together again from a Sunday service. Personally, I have a great deal of trouble in forgiving others. Sometimes I feel like I have forgiven someone only to find out at another time, I haven't fully forgiven that person. I'm posting this in case someone else has this issue with this as well.
    Jas virdee and xspinningisfun say Amen and like this.
  2. Good! I forgot about the forgiveness of Joseph! Thanks for reminding me.

    In all the worlds religions, it is only the one who is saved that can forgive.Since we are all born of God, and the Love of God has been shed abroad our hearts, we have the ability to forgive. When the Lord jesus revealed to me who had killed my father and how, it was a forgivenes test for me. I would read some of the above scriptures you mentioned many times until my mind was renewed. Today I can go and visit those very same people who had a hand in my fathers death and have dinner with them discussing the things of God. This is what christianity is all about. I rememeber reading the story of a woman in rwanda. Her whole family was given a choice to choose how to die by the rival tribe.They were asked to either buy a bullet from the rivals or they would die by being hacked by a big knife at the back of the head.Since this family did not have the money to buy the bullets, so that the family can die without much pain, they were hit at the back of the head by a big knife and burried.This woman did not die but was unconcious. Another woman came to lament for them at the grave and heard crying.She was dug out and she fled the country. Later she got saved through a friend she met. She went back and visited one of the killers in jail and told him that she had forgiven him.

    Now this lady had pains at the back of the head and nightmares. As she dug in the word of God and listened to messages on forgiveness, she forgave and God healed her head! No more nightmares and fear!. God healed all the trauma and pain in one night. It was because she obeyed God and forgave.

    The 9 fruits of the Spirit are not mental, but spiritual.
  3. In the past I have never had much trouble forgiving anyone. But as most everyone here knows, I have been deeply emotionally and mentally damaged from the events leading to and ending my marriage.

    I have always said forgiveness is mainly about letting go and not allowing the wrongs done against you to effect your relationship with God.

    If a person is truly sorry it's a no-brainer you forgive and pray and encourage them to do better and continue to love them.

    If a person is not sorry and continues in the behavior, you still need to forgive, but you don't have to continue to have a relationship with that person. Allowing someone to repeatedly sin against you makes you a party to their sin.

    Far too many Christians use the "you're supposed to forgive" line in a sinful and manipulative way. They use it to inflict guilt and get the other person to behave the way they want him to behave. That motivation is sinful!!!

    They do the same thing with the line "you're not supposed to judge" to silence the Word of God!

    It takes time to heal. It's not so easy to just turn emotions and feelings off and on like a light switch. I have always found it insensitive when someone's first words are "you need to forgive". Of course we do!!! But we also need to mourn and deal with the hurt of betrayal, the loss and pain that comes with certain types of offenses.

    It's similar to a death in the family, you need time to mourn and work through all the pain and emotions that are raging in your being.

    When someone has committed a great sin against you, you need time to work through the pain as well, and when it is someone very close to you, it is even more painful.

    I would love to go back and make everything wonderful by saying, "I forgive you.", but the fact is the people who have wronged me are too stupid (ie) to even know they ahve done anything wrong. (Oh a few probably know it deep down somewhere, but are too proud to admit it) They loath me and do not want me around. My presense would provoke ill feelings in them.

    So, forgiveness in this case is certainly not going back. It's not continuing a relationship with them.

    My concern is not with them at all, as I have no control over their stupidity. I have all I can handle dealing with my own!!!

    My concern is with my lack of desire to fellowship with other Christians. There is a part of me that wants to raise my kids, get them out on their own and then become a recluse - seriously. I would be one now, except my kids and my job keep forcing me to interact with the outside World! :mad:

    So, if I am seen as unforgiving, and unsaved because of it, then I was never saved to begin with. Now that's a sad thought, but, I don't believe that. I have great faith that God will bring me thru this.

    But I cannot change things by shear will, so I wait upon the Lord.... I'm waiting for the Elijah angels to come and feed me, and then God can send me back.
  4. I don't have a problem with forgiveness in principle (although I don't know how I'd feel if someone say raped and murdered a relation - I would forgive but I guess that could take me time) and I sort of figure that God offers the best side of the deal anyway, ie. I reckon what others may have done to me is very minor compared to all the things I may have done wrong in God's eyes...

    That said, things can have a horrible habit of coming back, eg. perhaps in an argument I drag something up that should (or was?) have be been forgiven and forgotten or maybe some conversation will get me back thinking "grrr" over something - it can happen all too easily... Then I have to stop and say to myself "but that was forgiven wasn't it?".

    I don't really know why it happens (though maybe Satan throws his tuppence in to "help"?) but it can really annoy me. I'd rather forgive and move on and while I know some people will say "revenge is sweet" but I have found on the odd occasion in the past where I have held onto a grudge, it just drags me down and makes me bitter. Apart from anything else, personally, I don't think wanting revenge or to see someone else fall is healthy for me either.
  5. I hate to hear what has happened to you Ginger.

    A lot of believers experience tension and stress because they live daily with the consequences of past events.
    If we struggle to understand why God allows us to continue to suffer because of past events in our lives I may help all of us to understand a great phycological principle and a Bible truth............................

    Forgivness is relational!
    Our relationship with Jesus is the totality of the reason behind God's forgivness of OUR sins. He allowed His Son to pay the greatest price form 0ur sin. He has already eliminated the greatest debt we will ever owe. He allowed Jesus to die instead of us, as we deserved to. Understanding that forgivness is RELATIONAL is the first part of the thought that leads to understanding why God allows the consequences to continue.

    Then we need to understand that CONSEQUENCES ARE CIRCUMSTANTIAL.
    Bad choices lead to bad consequences. It is a fact of life. A lot of the time, someone elses bad choices effect us with their consequences.

    I feel the need to tel you that it is never easy to face the negitive consequences of life when we struggle daily to live as God wants us to live. However, nothing is so sad that we can not rejoice in the grace of God and the forgiveness that is our eternal assurance. Many people who have become most effective in leading the lost to know Christ as their Savior bear the scares of consequences that God has chosen not to take away from thier lives.

    We all have scares my dear friend!!! But they too have a purpose, not to cause us pain or grief but instead as a tribute to God's mercy and grace. It is the way we look at the scares that makes the diffference in how we face the consequences that God has chosen not to remove. Whatever the scares, whatever the consequences, the attitude will determine how we relate to our Lord. Either we will reach a point of understanding and thank Him for the reminders of His grace, or we will become bitter.

    I do not know if this is anything to help you, I hope that it does but either way, may the Lord bless you and keep you strong and in the palm of His hand!

  6. I'm so sorry to hear that Jas. I haven't had to deal with murder in my family or friends, though one of my friends did die from too much partying and left her son behind. I can forgive her for the life she wanted to have. For some weird reason, I can forgive someone for doing something so terrible, but it's so hard for me to forgive some of my family members that haven't done something awful. I just wonder why that is.

    And like Jobanjo said about things being brought up that were supposed to have been forgiven. Every now and then a person will come to mind that just boils my blood. I'm supposed to have forgiven this person, so why do I still feel so angry? How do we know we have fully forgiven someone?
  7. Major, You're preaching to the choir. :)

    I understand all of what you said and I appreciate your caring for me. I truly do.

    I have had some terrible things happen to me in my lifetime, b ut I have always been able to use the experience for the glory of God.

    No doubt there will be many times to come when I will be able to help someone (spiritually) because of this experience. But that doesn't change the psychological damage that has been done. It doesn't undo the wrong.

    I think what people are unable to separate is the fact that when ewe forgive, we are not forgiving as God forgives in the sense of pardoning or removing the guilt - we cannot do that! Only God can.

    So, the question is, what does it mean for a brother to forgive a brother?

    It means to make peace with each other. But not everyone wants peace. It means to let go of any emotions or feelings that may be separating you from God. But letting go requires healing and healing requires time.

    Generally speaking, I don't need anyone to tell me what I already know, that is, to forgive. What I need to do is ensure there is no rift in my relationship to God while I work through this.

    There is a passage within Scriptures that tells us to wipe the dust off our feet when we leave. It is not my relationship to these people that is the problem. They don't want to be reconcile - that is their problem not mine. It is the dust that I still carry with me the needs to be wiped away somehow.

    This has not in anyway, changed my views on forgiveness not judging. I thanks God for that, as if I had judged others for taking to long to "get over" their hurt, how much more would I condemn myself now that I am in the same situation. God kis merciful indeed.

    Throughout this ordeal He has giving me reassurance and held me. So, I wait upon the Lord to guide me thru this, as I cannot find my way out on my own.

  8. Perhaps I should say, despite my current distain for those who call themselves Christian, all is not lost. I am still drawn in some way to Christians.

    Christine is one of those people whom I sense the Holy Spirit in and I am drawn to her. I love to read what she writes. She thinks of herself as a baby Christian who has so much more to learn, yet in her words I often see great wisdom.

  9. Ginger, have you ever felt the compasion of God flow through you? It is posible to mature in the 9 fruits of the spirit until it is imposible to hurt you.
    You are saved. Aslo I do not know if you realise this, many young in the Lord here look up to you.Do not take this privilage lightly.
    In bible the greek word for felowship is "Koinonia".The word koinonia goes much more deeper than what you understand about felowship. It takes the Love of God to have koinonia.Natural human Love cannot have koinonia. You can be alone amongst many friends.The reason is that there is no koinonia. An example of koinonia is when in the book of acts they sold all and put it at the disciples feet and none lacked anything.Breaking of bread in each others house and having all things common is an example of koinonia.Other peoples problems becoming your problems is koinonia.

    The God of all comfort is able to comfort us.

    You have the Love of God in you. No one is saying anything about you doing anything.Just ask God to let the love of God that is already in you to flow out of you. The christian walk is a very supernatural one.There nothing natural about the being saved.
    Christine likes this.
  10. I apologize to just show up all of a sudden (busy and I'm on another forum). I admire Ginger and I wish I could find somebody like her in our church. I forgot to tell this on another thread with mostly girls/women that posted -- she's got this love for others but I understand her being hurt by those we consider as the members in the body of Christ. I've overlooked and forgiven many people's offenses (bullying and all since they're mostly unbelievers) before but people who call themselves Christians back stabbed you (I found out through the prompting that I needed to do) and wanted to break my marriage is just too much for me. Forgiveness is a process and it doesn't mean that you have to trust those people who've hurt you, again. I had forgiven them but when I remember how they did it, I am furious inside. They're my mother-in-law and her sister!! I've talked to people about this and they've shared my burdens. Praise God I don't have to do this alone. Thank God for His daily mercies on me and his steadfast love that He deposits in me, so in return, I would completely forgive them even if they don't ask nor feel any remorse. God knew what happened and that, I'm thankful that there IS a God.
  11. Thank you Jas. I know what you are saying is out of love.

    Concerning those who "look up to me": I believe it is because I have openly and honestly shared my experiences, my feelings and let them see, I too, struggle and sometimes fall, and at times it is hard for me to rise above and do what is right. But despite what I am feeling or experiencing I treat those who have done me wrong with kindness. That gives them hope. At some point, this will all change and I will share and someone will be encouraged and say "God brought Ginger thru this, He can bring me thru my time of turmoil."

    I do not pretend to be perfect. It is through our weaknesses that God's power is revealed.

    Now, looking up to any human is a mistake IMO. Many Christians are turning to books written by famous preachers to learn about the message of the Gospel of Christ. They forget these books are written by men and NOT the inspired Word of God.

    The books and sermons all sound so nice, but often distort the Word and mislead many people. They preach a "feel-good" religion; a "name-it and claim it" Gospel where God is reduced to some sort of magic genie who we can manipulate into giving us anything we desire, if we just rub His lamp in the right way.

    If I can encourage anyone to become a better person by following and trusting Jesus, wonderful, but no one should presume they cannot do the same for me.

    I am sorry I am in the state I am in, but that does not stop me from calling upon God for help. It does not stop me from sharing my inner most thoughts and feelings (right or wrong) with Him and asking for help to overcome.

    But He allows us to go through these struggle for our own benefit and the benefit of the kingdom and so we caqn become more compassionate and understanding to others and let them know we have gone through trials and God carried us - He will carry them thru as well.

    I thank God for the good and the bad because he uses all things to work together topward His good and perfect will.

    This is a struggle for me now, but all things here are temporary and what matters is how God will use this for eternity.
  12. Thank you gemma, you are such a blessing to me. :)

  13. I believe that these people are telling you that they "admire" what you have been able to do in your life.

    Truth is that you probably admire them as well.
  14. I am deeply touched by your words, Ginger :) It is true that I don't know a lot about the Bible at all. I just feel drawn to some threads and the need to research what people are trying to say is all I do. I am sad to say that some of the research I do is lost over time. That is why I say I'm a young Christian who needs a lot of work.

    There are a lot of people on CFS that I think are so knowledgeable and wise in what they say, that includes you Ginger. You have so much wisdom in what you post and I enjoy reading them. Sometimes I even get a peek at the real you in some sentences and then the Holy Spirit is back working in you. It's very interesting to see that. :)

    I know how hard it is not to be angry with Christians - whether or not they are true. In my church, I have met some pretty judgmental Christians myself, but they will be everywhere. It's like a spy in a kingdom's castle where the darkness spreads from the inside out, and can make or break a church. We have to decide to save it or leave it, but even if we decide to leave, where will we go? It will just happen to the next church over time. All we can do is pray, like you always say.

    I've made that decision not to get involved with people - Christian or not - and it's brought me nothing but numbness. I don't wish this for you, so I pray you will meet the right people. I used to hate the world for what it's brought me, and I'm sure everyone goes through this in their life. But I've really had to over look the darkness and see what God has made. Not everyone is "ill willed" like I thought and I am able to see the beauty of the world He has made.
  15. Do you want to be able to obey the word of God without any problem? Here is how God told Joshua to do it.

    Jos 1:8

    This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

    Aslo you cannot live the christian life without the Helper.The Holy Spirit. He is your advantage over satan. The bible says:
    Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
    Zec 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
    I cannot imagine my life without the Holy Spirit. He is the comforter God sent to be with us in us.
    God did not leave us helpless, He sent the holy Spirit to be our helper.
  16. Thanks Jas. I'm already aware of those important things.

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