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For Rosa Vera

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by calvin, Dec 1, 2013.

  1. #1 calvin, Dec 1, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2013
    Rosa, without really taking time to get to know me, you have made some accusations against me which I feel are unfounded.
    Firstly, might I draw your attention to Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
    You seem to be of the understanding that all those affiliated with the church that is headed up by the Pope, (also known as the Bishop of Rome) are saved...is this a correct summation of your understanding?
    Another passage from the Scriptures that you might like to study is Mar 9:38 John said to him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us."
    Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, "Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me.
    So a precedent is set that not all who were in the direct company of the disciples with Jesus, (including Peter) were the only ones who were disciples. Yet..........Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
    So, on the one hand, not all who belong to the group of which Peter was to emerge as a leader are exclusively the Lord's people, on the other hand not every one who names the name of the Lord will be saved. It is worth noting that when these unfortunates claim to have done works in the name of Jesus, He does not deny their claims, He just rejects them for other reasons.
    So now who are these people going to be? Were they Muslims? not likely because a Muslim would do whatever a Muslim does if anything, in the name of Mohammad or Allah. Were they Buddhists? No, they wouldn't invoke the name of Jesus either? Were they Atheists? Not likely, for they do not recognize Jesus as anybody other than just another man.. So who will they be?

    The distinction between Catholic and Roman Catholic is a well established one. You might find the article at
    http://trinityacc.org/about.html useful. Now am I really such a bad egg for having a 'wider than some' understanding? My distinction between Catholic and Roman Catholic is not denigrating Roman Catholics, it is believing Jesus' words and for that I will not apologize.
     
  2. Let's get a few things straight. I have read all the Calvin and Hobbes and Calvin is Always guilty despite Calvin's explanation. So by default, Calvin is always guilty despite him blaming Hobbes or any other misfortune he claims came upon him that caused his unwarranted deeds.

    Roman Catholic different than Catholic?

    Any Church not part of the Roman Rite is not part of the Roman Catholic Church. These off branch Catholic churches do not take up Roman Heritage but their own local customs, but still retain the same faith.

    So, people that live in Robbins, Oak Lawn will tell you they don't live in Chicago, you sure can't tell the difference as it's all connected.

    Someone form Compton will quickly point out they don't live in L.A.................

    Apostolic Church will tell you they are different than Assemblies of God churches. Not really, the Apostolic church just added a bunch of rules to follow. Both speak in tongues and believe the same stuff once you take the local rules out of the picture, and not make a big deal about Trinity or Oneness both Creeds made by man. God is 3 in 1 or God is 1 that manifest as 3.

    The important issue that divides any Catholic Church, Rome included is something called "Solo Scriptura"
    This is another man made term, but has a point. Only the Bible (66) books contain what man needs to know about God and living right. No other books, works, writings contain anything of value when talking about God, but those (66)

    Anything labeled Catholic do not believe in "Solo Scriptura" so it don't matter if it's Roman Catholic or not. Any work they see fit has the same authority as Scriptures do.

    We might as well call Apples, apples. If a organization believes that works outside the Scripture contain just as much authority as the scriptures themselves, then there will be problems.

    Just ask the Methodist Church, they know this all to well. Their Book of Discipline which they hold over Scripture has almost destroyed the United Methodist Church. Even now because of this book, Homosexuals have infiltrated a once strong Church and are eating away from the insides. Because of this Book of Discipline there was a gay vote taken that almost passed to allow Gay Pastors and Clergy. Just because of one book that is held as important outside the Word of God.

    No Church should ever consider taking such a vote. It's like voting to have witchcraft practice on Tuesday night, right after prayer meeting.

    As for me, Scripture only please......................................................
     
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  3. Scripture is not the only way God teaches us ..
    those who have the HS knows this ..

    it is because of Sola Scriptura that there are so many denominations ..
    people using their own reasoning to interpret .. thus Theo-Logia ..
     
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  4. That is an interesting idea. You have taken what I have posted and put it into interpreting scripture by their own reasoning. I only mentioned Solo Scriptura in contrast to Catholic and Methodist beliefs. Both do not take any stance or agree with Solo scriptura which just means "By the Scripture alone" Both have works that are "Believed" to be of equal value to the Word of God.

    Despite others using Theo Logical methods because of their stance on Solo Scriptura such as Hermeneutics and other man made mind sets to understand God's Word. It's still far better than adding a bunch of extra stuff believed to be of equal importance. Not perfect by any means but at least in the ball park somewhere.

    One might still say wrong is wrong no matter how you arrived at 2+2=5.

    So perhaps Prima Scriptura would be a better Word.

    If this be the case then those using Prima Scriptura would or should see (CLOSE) to the same things and not interpret the word with logical reason but through the HS.

    Just an example of Isa 14, Solo Scriptura takes a human study approach with some Hermeneutic thrown in to say we are talking about a king here, not Satan. One could logically see how this conclusion makes sense, however those listening to the HS would also see how the Word of God also covers the spiritual understanding also.

    I have had this type of discussion before with a few others, for the most part it's a bit past understanding for a lot of believers. It was in a post called, "Is scripture enough to know God?" (another forum)

    Thank you for that input :)

    Michael
     
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  5. #5 ixoye_8, Dec 1, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2013
    Michael .. this is where the verse of the Apostles saying "they do not follow us" and Jesus saying "leave them alone" .. can easily be applied to denominational doctrine ..

    the Gospel of Salvation AS IS is what is important ..
    IF the icing (doctrine) does not change the cake (Gospel) under it, then leave it alone ..
    IF the doctrine does change the Gospel, then by all means you need to address it to help your brethren to obtain Salvation as was given ..

    Paul does NOT say a different doctrine .. he says a different Gospel ..
    doctrine NOT changing the Gospel of Salvation won't help you or hurt you ..
    notice when Jesus spoke of repetitious prayer, he never said DON'T DO IT ..
    He simply says it doesn't help ..
    this simply means God knows yours what is in your heart ..
    thus a Catholic praying a rosary kevanah (hearts intent) may in fact be more pure then one not praying a rosary .. or vise-versa ..

    May God Bless you and lead you in all His ways ..
     
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  6. Michael ..
    I like your changing of the term "sola scriptura" in favor of "prima scriptura" ..
    I changed the term "denominational beliefs" in favor of "dominional beliefs" ..
     
  7. +++++++++++++++++++

    Calvin thank you for this... understand that i feel you are a child of God that tries his best to help and to bring the word of God to others... also understand that as a Catholic/Roman Catholic i see it all the time, good people that speak the word of God and yet will take subtle small jabs at my church, without any reason or need to, as when you posted to help Aireen but yet you had to put in your little jab at her Catholic faith which is Roman Catholic. Yet, i do not see that many Catholics, Roman or otherwise, that do the same to other denominations no matter what they are. Please, i don't want to have you feel i am singling you out or attacking you, actually i am glad we are addressing this and speaking of it, but with love in my heart i am trying to make whether you or anyone that reads this understand that we are all declaring the gospel of our Lord and His message of salvation. What is the message of our Lord Jesus:
    -He came for us all
    -He died for our sins
    -He is the Son of God
    -repentance of our sins
    -He resurrected on His own after death (this is the most important)

    Hence, the way i see it as long as a church teaches the message of salvation to its congregation then they are following the path of grace and salvation that our Lord Jesus gave us all...

    In my opinion why take jabs at all if it is not necessary in a discussion... if the discussion is about that particular faith, or it makes a difference in a discussion to expound on the topic by bringing out some of the traditions of that particular church then i see no harm, but, in the case of Aireen i felt it was harming her to mention to her that her church was not exactly a Christian church.

    And i do not go by articles and what somebody else says who i am, i know who i am, and i know my church, and i know the many misconceptions that many desire to point out without knowing anything about or taking the time to understand the words spoken by the leader of the Roman Catholic Church...

    With love i write this and, yes, not everyone that says they are of Christ are of Christ, but then that goes for all of us not just some...
     
  8. Hi Calvin ..
    it indeed is always a good idea to straight out ask intent ..

    I'm not quite sure how you meant that verse, but may I draw your attention to Jesus' own words ..
    Jhn 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

    and Paul's words ..

    1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
    1Cr 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

    Also if you notice, what we do judge, is sin by establishing witness and using God's word to do it with .. for a rebuke is based on this sort of judgement first ..
    Luk 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.


    the context of "not passing judgement" in Rom 14:4, is in regards to doctrine used .. such as one who eats pork and one who does not for instance .. or one who may say a rosary and one who does not ..

    did you know while Paul was in Greece starting churches, Peter being in "the jaws of the lion" was unable to ??? .. Paul wrote to the Romans while in Greece (Rom 1:7) and Peter wrote a letter to the Thessalonians while in Rome (2Pe 3:16) and when Paul came to Rome, he said when he got there there were believers, but no churches are mentioned (Act 28:15) even Paul was met with resistance (Act 28:24) and together (though they worked separately 2Ti 4:11) as Paul then preached to Jew & Gentile both, but only from his home (Act 28:28-31) my feeling is AFTER the end of this chapter, Peter and Paul started preaching openly in Rome, started the church of Rome , and it cost both of them their lives by Nero, who tortured Christians and even set fire to the city blaming Christians, trying to get the Romans to reject the new faith also .. so the Church of Rome was the greatest single accomplishment by the Apostles and the cost was their lives .. because if they failed there, Christianity would then also have failed, as Nero would have widen the persecution into the rest of the empire (Act 28:22) .. thus Jesus words in Mat 16:18 ..

    .. I wonder what became of Luke, as he seemed to disappear before Paul's death, and what is sad, is that John Mark (by tradition fled to Alexandria) did not even write about Peter's evangelism as far as we know .. I do believe John Mark wrote Peter's Gospel for him as John Mark was too young and from Jerusalem, and could not have written the Gospel attributed to him .. as well as I believe Luke wrote Paul's Gospel (Rom 2:16, Rom 16:25, 2Ti 2:8) for him, but was erroneously attributed to Luke ..

    did you know written on the outside of the Dome of the Rock it says "God has no Son" ???
     
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  9. Hi Calvin ..
    it indeed is always a good idea to straight out ask intent ..

    I'm not quite sure how you meant that verse, but may I draw your attention to Jesus' own words ..
    Jhn 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

    and Paul's words ..

    1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
    1Cr 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

    Also if you notice, what we do judge, is sin by establishing witness and using God's word to do it with .. for a rebuke is based on this sort of judgement first ..
    Luk 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.


    the context of "not passing judgement" in Rom 14:4, is in regards to doctrine used .. such as one who eats pork and one who does not for instance .. or one who may say a rosary and one who does not ..

    did you know while Paul was in Greece starting churches, Peter being in "the jaws of the lion" was unable to ??? .. Paul wrote to the Romans while in Greece (Rom 1:7) and Peter wrote a letter to the Thessalonians while in Rome (2Pe 3:16) and when Paul came to Rome, he said when he got there there were believers, but no churches are mentioned (Act 28:15) even Paul was met with resistance (Act 28:24) and together (though they worked separately 2Ti 4:11) as Paul then preached to Jew & Gentile both, but only from his home (Act 28:28-31) my feeling is AFTER the end of this chapter, Peter and Paul started preaching openly in Rome, started the church of Rome , and it cost both of them their lives by Nero, who tortured Christians and even set fire to the city blaming Christians, trying to get the Romans to reject the new faith also .. so the Church of Rome was the greatest single accomplishment by the Apostles and the cost was their lives .. because if they failed there, Christianity would then also have failed, as Nero would have widen the persecution into the rest of the empire (Act 28:22) .. thus Jesus words in Mat 16:18 ..

    .. I wonder what became of Luke, as he seemed to disappear before Paul's death, and what is sad, is that John Mark (by tradition fled to Alexandria) did not even write about Peter's evangelism as far as we know .. I do believe John Mark wrote Peter's Gospel for him as John Mark was too young and from Jerusalem, and could not have written the Gospel attributed to him .. as well as I believe Luke wrote Paul's Gospel (Rom 2:16, Rom 16:25, 2Ti 2:8) for him, but was erroneously attributed to Luke ..

    did you know written on the outside of the Dome of the Rock it says "God has no Son" ???
     

  10. i feel the same way, there are so many writings of such great disciples that were disciples of the Apostles and their writing gives us a such wonderful teachings which clarify and testify to many of the actions of the Apostles. How i long so many times to be able to read more of the writing of the Apostles, to know more of their everyday life, of what Mary the Blessed Mother did daily with Jesus our Lord as he was growing up... and the writing of those that came after the Apostles gives me a bit more and i love reading them...
     
  11. "IXOYE wrote:
    did you know written on the outside of the Dome of the Rock it says "God has no Son" ???
    "

    This is so sad to see this, i did not know, and to realize how much their hate is for us all that follow Christ... by doing this who are they trying to please, not the Christians, but sometimes i think they are trying to please the Jews as they also do not believe in Christ as being the Son of God... but this may be more that they are trying to demean us and to declare their supposedly imagined dominion over us all... let us not forget they purposely pick on the Christians in Jerusalem, and when they leave their homes in desperation the Palestinians squat in their homes and make it theirs... they tried to build a latrine on top of the roof of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and only with the pressure from the world and from Israel did they stop... temporarily .

    Many times i wish God would strike them and show them He is not pleased with their action...
     
  12. Rosa .. if I caused you to feel resentment, I am sorry ..
    so let me correct that .. I am sure many Christians resented Saul (Paul) but I wonder how many Christians, and even if the Apostles themselves (who had to know of him) prayed for God to open his eyes ??? .. perhaps God closed Saul's eyes, and reopened Paul's eyes in direct prayer from the Apostles ..

    look at the difference praying for your enemies can make ..
    I know even if God doesn't .. it makes your own heart a better place to do this ..

    remember, Jesus told us He came here not to judge but to help ..
    and if their heart is harden, and they do evil to God's kids, God will take care of it ..
    he will judge them AFTER, but at that point, they will have wished they received an earthly judgement then the one that will ensue ..

    so pray for those that do evil eyes are closed and reopened (born again) ..
    according to the righteousness of the Lord ..

    God bless you and teach you in His ways ..
     
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  13. Rosa .. if I caused you to feel resentment, I am sorry ..
    so let me correct that .. I am sure many Christians resented Saul (Paul) but I wonder how many Christians, and even if the Apostles themselves (who had to know of him) prayed for God to open his eyes ??? .. perhaps God closed Saul's eyes, and reopened Paul's eyes in direct prayer from the Apostles ..

    look at the difference praying for your enemies can make ..
    I know even if God doesn't .. it makes your own heart a better place to do this ..

    remember, Jesus told us He came here not to judge but to help ..
    and if their heart is harden, and they do evil to God's kids, God will take care of it ..
    he will judge them AFTER, but at that point, they will have wished they received an earthly judgement then the one that will ensue ..

    so pray for those that do evil eyes are closed and reopened (born again) ..
    according to the righteousness of the Lord ..

    God bless you and teach you in His ways ..
     
  14. Sorry but I cannot see the connection: previous paragraph takes us into Rome…and the last line talks about the dome which is in Jerusalem?

    first time I heard the “dome of the rock” I thought something to do with Peter : )

    Googled it a bit: it is in a contested place in Jerusalem, an Islamic architecture....
     

  15. Please do not feel that you are the cause, actually in another post i did confess that the actions of Muslims whether terrorists or not are my stumbling block... i will say it is difficult for me to pray for them when i would rather strike at them, but i am trying in my prayers for God to help me with this and i hope to surpass this stumbling block and actually get myself to pray for these that i see as enemies...
     
  16. hi aha ..
    my reply was to Calvin ..
    and that part of my reply, was a reference to this part of his original post ..

    So now who are these people going to be? Were they Muslims? not likely because a Muslim would do whatever a Muslim does if anything, in the name of Mohammad or Allah. Were they Buddhists? No, they wouldn't invoke the name of Jesus either? Were they Atheists? Not likely, for they do not recognize Jesus as anybody other than just another man.. So who will they be?
     
  17. there you go ..
    we all have stumbling blocks ..
    and we all are suppose to bear one another's burdens ..
    so I hope I helped you .. that was my intent ..

    the greatest affect is always within our own hearts ..
    so our goal is to perfect our hearts into that which is pleasing to God ..
    for the earthly will pass away, but what we lock into our hearts remain forever ..

    God bless you and teach you in all His ways ..
     
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  18. OK, so Praying the rosary can be even more heart felt with the things of God in mind than say just reciting what they call the Lords prayer everyday at some churches with no clue what they are reciting.

    How can you recite "Thy Will be done on Earth, As it is in Heaven" every Sunday for the last 20 years and still preach that it's not God's will to always heal someone?
    It's clear they pray this out of tradition with no heart or revelation.

    So, praying the rosary can be out of more a pure heart, but I have to ask................. Do right motives move God on our behalf when those motives are based on our reasoning and not Prima Scriptura?

    I think back to the man who out of a good heart held back his talent and did not risk it. He certainly did not want to come up empty when his lord returned.
    Upon returning his Lord was not very happy because the 1 talent was given according to each persons ability to make money. What seemed like the right thing to do, ended up not being the right thing to do.

    I need some coffee now, I just got up my full cup is still looking at me from my desk.

    Michael.
     
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  19. #19 ixoye_8, Dec 1, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2013
     
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  20. Bless God, not to make this post to deep, as it can go that direction. I want to keep in mind the rest who may read. I am not opposed to repetitions of the Word. In fact I have a "Confession" book from the 1990's I still kept. In the book are scriptures I would take time every day to confess and mediate on just as the Lord told Joshua to do so that his way would be prosperous.

    Example:
    I lay hands on the sick and they always recover. Every sickness with a name must bow to the name of Jesus, every thing not right in a persons life has a name and must bow in the Name of Jesus. When I lay hands on the sick in the name of Jesus, they always recover because Jesus said they would. That is a fact as the Lord always goes with me performing his word with signs following.

    I know that is just basic stuff as Paul said let us not go back to milk and laying on of hands, but that is where I was at back then. I did not want to run into a "What if they don't get healed, then what? What if I look bad?" I am not the healer and it's not up to us to perform the Word, we just deliver the message. Recover does not always mean instant as I also found out, but they will recover.

    I am not against the repetitions. I guess are we talking about praying repetitions or doing repetitions as faith comes by hearing the Word to change us to get in line with God?

    When I pray over our meals, I do the praying as head of my house, the kids don't until I am done. I don't say grace, I speak to the food that it be sanctified by the Word, safe to eat and good for our bodies. Food I call you clean and fit for us to eat. Lord we thank you for our supply and your faithfulness.

    I have a purpose and revelation for what I am saying. I am not just saying grace because that is what people do. You can say things with a "Pure" heart but most the time that Pure heart is a form of fear and emotions. Doing something out of fear and emotions don't work out so good. Ask Job when you see him.

    So the question then. No matter how heart felt, or emotion behind it. Does that dictate to God to be moved to do something even though we are not in line with what He said? My answer through scripture and experience is NO.


    When I say Your will be done Lord on Earth as it is in Heaven, protect us from Evil. I say that because that is how it is and with revelation. God gave the earth to man, so that must have been the reason Jesus said pray that because in Man's hands, the will of the Lord is not always first place. As believers we can enforce his will in our lives and spread that through power to others. Since the Lord does not have two different wills, one for earth and one for Heaven, then that settles all those healing, and getting your needs met questions and the Lords will concerning that.

    We won't get to Heaven and be told to stay out of the south side because that is the rough part of Heaven and you just don't want to go there because it's not safe.


    (Talents) yes, it's whatever the Lord gives ability to do, money, anointing, position. Don't waste it and don't be afraid.

    You almost sound like one of those tongue talking believer types. :)


    Your blessed!!! and favored!!!

    Michael.
     
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