First Church?

[Brother David]

Haha, if it's coming off that way, then it goes to show how bad I am at explaining certain things

In short, you asked if I believe all non-Catholics are hell-bound. It would have been clearer if I answered it this way; non-Catholics put themselves at great risk of being hell-bound. Does this mean ONLY people who die Catholic can go to heaven? Not quite -- this is still in great discussion, and this also tends to bring in the discussion of purgatory and what purgatory is. Or perhaps it's better to say that only Catholics are in heaven, but this couldn't mean a Protestant can die a Protestant and not go to heaven. However, could it mean Protestants may find themselves going to hell for denying Catholicism? It certainly can, especially if they intentionally reject it despite what they've come to know.

Does this also mean all Catholics go to heaven? Probably not. Again, this is something still being discussed. A Catholic can be a Catholic only by name and even by religious practice, but he may not be a Christian if his religion falls empty and his works are only of himself and not God.

Wow ! How absolutely ridiculous, heaven or hell based upon Catholicism.........It is not about your religion, it's ALL about Jesus !!
Christ alone......period.
Heaven is for those that have been born-again, not because of man-made creeds or rituals.

 

[MichaelH]

Wow ! How absolutely ridiculous, heaven or hell based upon Catholicism.........It is not about your religion, it's ALL about Jesus !!
Christ alone......period.
Heaven is for those that have been born-again, not because of man-made creeds or rituals.

It's not based on that Brother David. It's just that some Catholics blundered over to this thread by mistake. We have to be kind and remember they believe what we believe and add a bunch of stuff never mentioned in scriptures. I would rather see a valid argument presented with scripture only as it's hard to really respond to people who choose anything that moves as cannon. We need to understand what we are dealing with and be nice.

Scripture only please does not suit believers as it should.

blessings.

 

[RosaVera]

No! Actually I agree with almost every word...I misjudged no one with my questions. I also did not receive answers. I received diversion. I asked Rosa concerning that specified post "IYO are only Roman Catholics "the true church" and when YOU use the word Catholic do you only mean Roman Catholics?" The question was not intended to begin a firestorm just to initiate clarity. Rosa has still not answered my questions.

As for what I believe, I believe the true church (the ekklesia of God) IS the catholic church and it is comprised of all who are truly born from above (for without the Spirit of Christ in you, you are none of His). In a practical sense, all local bodies founded by the Apostles, whose first leaders were those taught by and appointed by the founding Apostle (whether Jerusalem, Smyrna, Antioch, Rome, Ephesus, etc.,) are the one holy apostolic church, but all who attended these are not necessarily His children unless they were birthed into a new creature IN CHRIST.

That being said, when re-reading this post I referred to, I still am looking forward to an honest straight forward answer as I would give being a brother in the Lord...

a) IYO are only Roman Catholics "the true Church", and
b) When Rosa used the word Catholic did this mean to ROSA only Roman Catholics

Simple...yes/no...

In His love

Brother Paul

Hi... actually i did answer but you may have missed it, and please understand that i do read between the lines and there was no need for you to ask me that question and it seems a bit odd that you would ask that, you might want to answer the motive behind that as i never ask anyone if they think they are the one true believers, anyway here is my answer previously :

Thank you Brother Paul... question is what is the true church of God...? Is it one of the 7 as quoted in Revelation, but then event those not all were in sync with our Lord's gospel. Our Lord Jesus said we are all His family IF we do the will of the Father... our Lord Jesus also said that what differentiates us from all others is our love for one another hence we are His disciples and make up His church. Hence when you see a concerted group of Christians, a church that professes the gospels of our Lord, demeaning another group of Christians, another church, are they the 'true church' ...?

i gave birth to my daughter, she is a part of me, she looks like me, does a lot of things like me, but is she the original me that gave birth to her...?

Brother Paul, you don't seem to me to be argumentative, and i do hope not anti-Catholic, and as a Catholic, which i stated when i first joined the group, i don't really see that many of whichever denomination they belong to do the same, not that it is important but why not state it ...?

 

[RosaVera]

It's not based on that Brother David. It's just that some Catholics blundered over to this thread by mistake. We have to be kind and remember they believe what we believe and add a bunch of stuff never mentioned in scriptures. I would rather see a valid argument presented with scripture only as it's hard to really respond to people who choose anything that moves as cannon. We need to understand what we are dealing with and be nice.

Scripture only please does not suit believers as it should.

blessings.

Actually i am surprised that you are writing these words Michael... your tone is haughty and condescending, did not expect that from you, and did not expect from another Christian that you need to be ''nice to us Catholics'' ... but then your opinion is between you and God and we shall all answer to Him one day for our earthly stay.

 

[Brother Paul]

Hi... actually i did answer but you may have missed it, and please understand that i do read between the lines and there was no need for you to ask me that question and it seems a bit odd that you would ask that, you might want to answer the motive behind that as i never ask anyone if they think they are the one true believers, anyway here is my answer previously :

Thank you Brother Paul... question is what is the true church of God...? Is it one of the 7 as quoted in Revelation, but then event those not all were in sync with our Lord's gospel. Our Lord Jesus said we are all His family IF we do the will of the Father... our Lord Jesus also said that what differentiates us from all others is our love for one another hence we are His disciples and make up His church. Hence when you see a concerted group of Christians, a church that professes the gospels of our Lord, demeaning another group of Christians, another church, are they the 'true church' ...?

i gave birth to my daughter, she is a part of me, she looks like me, does a lot of things like me, but is she the original me that gave birth to her...?

Brother Paul, you don't seem to me to be argumentative, and i do hope not anti-Catholic, and as a Catholic, which i stated when i first joined the group, i don't really see that many of whichever denomination they belong to do the same, not that it is important but why not state it ...?

So then you are Eastern Orthodox! Fine...

 

[Brother Paul]

No lines to read between (which of itself is very subjective) my questions were straight forward and you still have not answered them (though I suspect for some unknown personal reason you will not). So fine...the peace of our Lord be unto you...

 

[RosaVera]

No lines to read between (which of itself is very subjective) my questions were straight forward and you still have not answered them (though I suspect for some unknown personal reason you will not). So fine...the peace of our Lord be unto you...

i belong to a wonderful and incredibly beautiful small Roman Catholic church which looks like a small cathedral.. it has a beautiful altar and behind it is the Eucharist, which is for us the Holy of Holies for the Jews. We pray, we sing psalms, we worship our Lord and God Jesus ( i love the way St. Thomas said it: my Lord, my God), we get together at times after church for coffee and sweets, we have a center which we do lots of get togethers like movie night, musicals, dances, Christmas and New Year celebrations plus a very nice BBQ in the summer... i love being a part of my church as i am sure you are also, and i did answer directly your question, the Catholic church was first then when they broke up it became the RCC because the Anglican church thought it was fun to bash us with that title... you did not answer my question, which is not important to answer as i am not going to demand you do, i know you feel you have the truth, i feel we all have the truth as long as we obey God and His commandments, and my church that i belong to which is the RCC does ...

Brother Paul i asked in a post i made earlier about the March for Life on Washington DC this Wed. the 22nd.., only got an answer from 2 people and one is a Catholic, RCC... now why is that...? Why aren't other Christians involved as the RCC is in the defense of the unborn...? and why do they let only the RCC take the full brunt of consequences for standing up for the life of the unborn, for marriage between a man and a woman, and all other gospel teachings...? Why don't we all stand up for these same beliefs...?

God is great ... bless you Brother Paul...

 

[MichaelH]

First, David posted in this thread concerning heaven and hell. The thread is about the first church. So he should have posted in that hell thread instead.

Actually i am surprised that you are writing these words Michael... your tone is haughty and condescending, did not expect that from you, and did not expect from another Christian that you need to be ''nice to us Catholics'' ... but then your opinion is between you and God and we shall all answer to Him one day for our earthly stay.

NO Rosa, that not right. I don't start a conversation about tongues with a Baptist. Just like no point in going into subjects using scripture only with Catholics about certain subjects. I am scripture only, and must be shown in scripture. I am not into other works or belief systems.

I am not opposed to or against Catholics, therefore I think we all ought to be nice.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Purgatory is a place of penance. Scripture says the Lord is more than able to present us without spot or blemish. The Lord is able not Purgatory or any mention of Purgatory or even the concept of Purgatory. It's a made up place and I do have more scriptures.

It's appointed to men to die once then judgement. The only Judgement ever talked about is those that are Jesus and the White throne Judgement. After you die you don't get a opportunity to get things right. There is no scripture for that.

Purgatory is a place where fire or whatever purify the believer for heaven. This concept alone trashes the power of the Blood of Jesus who went to the cross so that we would not have to endure the punishment we deserved.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

So, if the blood worked the first time, then there is no need to visit Purgatory. That is why it's hard to talk to Catholics about certain things because they make stuff up despite what scripture says. I meant no disrespect but I only believe the Catholic doctrine that is Word based, not the make believe stuff.

I hope this was more clear. This site in the TOS
1) The Holy Scriptures, in it's original form, is the inerrant Word of God.

means we stick with scripture only as proof of anything on this site.

i hope this clears stuff up.

blessings.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

OK, so the short answer is you just made it up.
As there is ZERO scripture that even comes close to the comment.

Also all other things are Practiced except we call it taking communion. If you ever been to a mass it's not much different giving respect to the blood and body of Jesus.

So that makes the Statement that Non-Cathloics may be in danger of hell, whatever. To be make believe as you listed everything all believers practice.

You keep forgetting in these discussions that repentance, communion, Confessing sin to God, and so on are normal practices by all believers (Most anyway) these are not something invented by a Baptist church or a Catholic church since both were not even around or can even be proved they were around during the time Acts took place. Just saying there were Christians at the time of Acts so they must be Baptist is not going to cut it, so Baptist must be the right and first church is fairy tale land.

trinity:
There is ONE scripture (Some think it a forgery since jerome (Latin Vulgate) did not have it or add it and it was only added in the 3rd edition of the Greek accepted text (Ersamus not wanting to add it thinking it also a fake but did so to keep the peace)

Is that there are 3 that bare record the father, word, Holy Spirit these three are ONE.

3 separate beings that are as ONE.......... TRINITY.
Husband and wife are one Flesh............ Mystery

All other attempts to say Jesus is the Word is god is oneness, Modelist postion and full of scripture contradictions and goofy thinking. Trinity never made any such other scripture claims.

So, trinity just might be there, though I am not a Trinitarian because trinity also says Jesus is the 2nd person in the Godhead and there is no scripture for that.

There is a difference between "christian things" and Catholic things,. all Christians believe the same thing else they are not Christians.

There is no Catholic Doctrine that I know of saying if you don't believe in vampires (Holy water) or don't bother Mary constantly that you are not a Christian. Nothing about keeping mass not making you a believer. I have never seen Catholics put out this stipulation anywhere. Witch burnings, yea, but it's always been to believe on the lord Jesus Christ. Rome has come down with some heavy handed stuff, but never Have I seen History that you have to practice any belief to be saved but what is written in the word.

So any comparisons that point to Believer does not make it a denominational thing.

Blessings.

You have misunderstood just about everything I said. I never claimed the elements of the catholic faith I listed to be exclusively catholic.

Michael, the least you could do is conclude I'm misguided, not "making it up" as you claimed. I wouldn't claim you were trying to make this stuff up, but I do thing you're misguided. But to claim I'm "making it up" is staggeringly ignorant, no offense, as well as insulting as you've just judged me as someone trying to drive people down the wrong path. I'm a sinner, and I don't know everything, but I deserve a little more credit than to intentionally lead people down to hell.

To end an insult with "blessings" adds to the phoniness, and at the risk of crossing the line, I don't stomach that sentiment very well.

 

[ixoye_8]

No! Actually I agree with almost every word...I misjudged no one with my questions. I also did not receive answers. I received diversion. I asked Rosa concerning that specified post "IYO are only Roman Catholics "the true church" and when YOU use the word Catholic do you only mean Roman Catholics?" The question was not intended to begin a firestorm just to initiate clarity. Rosa has still not answered my questions.

As for what I believe, I believe the true church (the ekklesia of God) IS the catholic church and it is comprised of all who are truly born from above (for without the Spirit of Christ in you, you are none of His). In a practical sense, all local bodies founded by the Apostles, whose first leaders were those taught by and appointed by the founding Apostle (whether Jerusalem, Smyrna, Antioch, Rome, Ephesus, etc.,) are the one holy apostolic church, but all who attended these are not necessarily His children unless they were birthed into a new creature IN CHRIST.

That being said, when re-reading this post I referred to, I still am looking forward to an honest straight forward answer as I would give being a brother in the Lord...

a) IYO are only Roman Catholics "the true Church", and
b) When Rosa used the word Catholic did this mean to ROSA only Roman Catholics

Simple...yes/no...

In His love

Brother Paul

I have no clue why you are asking me these questions .. I have made it abundantly clear I am non-denominational ..
and my remark about misjudging was a blanket statement of wisdom as so not to jump to conclusions and not to be guilty of misjudging .. works to both's benefit ..

God bless you ..

 

[ixoye_8]

I want to say this .. as non-denominational ..
I can point out doctrine in EACH AND EVERY denomination that is not scripture based ..

 

[MichaelH]

You have misunderstood just about everything I said. I never claimed the elements of the catholic faith I listed to be exclusively catholic.

Michael, the least you could do is conclude I'm misguided, not "making it up" as you claimed. I wouldn't claim you were trying to make this stuff up, but I do thing you're misguided. But to claim I'm "making it up" is staggeringly ignorant, no offense, as well as insulting as you've just judged me as someone trying to drive people down the wrong path. I'm a sinner, and I don't know everything, but I deserve a little more credit than to intentionally lead people down to hell.

To end an insult with "blessings" adds to the phoniness, and at the risk of crossing the line, I don't stomach that sentiment very well.

Your comment................. Non-Catholics are in danger or not as good of a position to avoid hell.

There are zero scriptures to back this statement.

That means you made it up.

You have to pick a side here. With me it's scripture only, That is it. Jesus said that the World will believe on "Their" Word. He commissioned the last 12 Apostles (Paul thrown in later) to give the Eternal word. (John 17:20)

That means any belief outside of this when it comes to the things of God is not God. We have the OT prophets and we have the last 12. (Not saying there are no apostles today, just none given that order that we believe on "Their" word also.

Any statement not backed by scripture (More than one place as we give no scripture or passage of scripture any private interpretation) then it's make believe concerning the things of God. (2 Peter 1:20)

It is absolute safe to stay and stick with Scripture only. It's not safe to go into ideas and thinking outside of scripture.

how you want me to handle this Brother? on what level? This idea that Rome knows any more or does better than any other denomination is fallacy.

Every Statement I make I will back with scripture. I think before I type something so I don't get called on the carpet for it later on non-scriptural fairy tales.

I would hope everyone would do this and value the word.

If you make something up and someone calls you on it and you don't have "A" scripture then call it for what it is, you just made it up. Not a big deal.

Word of Faith:

There are some sayings in my camp, I don't use them or buy into them. I have enough sense not to mention them here in a open forum.

"I was slain in the spirit" (One recorded death from the Holy Spirit and you still lived, scripture please)
"our words are containers of power" (What scripture would that be?)
"If you confess it, it will come to pass" (Not exactly what Jesus said where is the scripture?)

If you want me to instead just ignore comments with no scriptural bases then I can do that also if it keeps the peace.

anyway, sorry to offend you, that was not my intention and I myself do not get offended. I was called ignorant in that hell thread but that was without the person backing anything with scripture. If I wrong them I certainly want to get corrected on it.

blessings.

 

[Brother David]

It's not based on that Brother David. It's just that some Catholics blundered over to this thread by mistake. We have to be kind and remember they believe what we believe and add a bunch of stuff never mentioned in scriptures. I would rather see a valid argument presented with scripture only as it's hard to really respond to people who choose anything that moves as cannon. We need to understand what we are dealing with and be nice.

Scripture only please does not suit believers as it should.

blessings.

I am sorry if I did not come across as "nice" and "kind".......Catholics do NOT believe what we believe......At least not what I believe.
My mother is Catholic and my late grandmother was Catholic.....I am not ignorant about what Catholics believe.
They call their priest Father, they pray to Mary and dead saints, their collection of the skulls of dead saints are rather sick.
Catholics love their crucifix's because they want to keep Jesus on the cross......He's NOT dead, He's alive

 

[RosaVera]

I am sorry if I did not come across as "nice" and "kind".......Catholics do NOT believe what we believe......At least not what I believe.
My mother is Catholic and my late grandmother was Catholic.....I am not ignorant about what Catholics believe.
They call their priest Father, they pray to Mary and dead saints, their collection of the skulls of dead saints are rather sick.
Catholics love their crucifix's because they want to keep Jesus on the cross......He's NOT dead, He's alive

We are used to your kind of bashing and it is sorrowful to see that you make it clear to all... it proves even more that the Catholic faith, whether Roman or otherwise is the true faith, don't see any Catholic whether Roman, Orthodox or Greek or Eastern that bashes other Christians the way you and others do... but thank God not all.

You say you know about Catholics, i say you don't...

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

Children...when will we see? When will we hear....?

 

[MichaelH]

I am sorry if I did not come across as "nice" and "kind".......Catholics do NOT believe what we believe......At least not what I believe.
My mother is Catholic and my late grandmother was Catholic.....I am not ignorant about what Catholics believe.
They call their priest Father, they pray to Mary and dead saints, their collection of the skulls of dead saints are rather sick.
Catholics love their crucifix's because they want to keep Jesus on the cross......He's NOT dead, He's alive

I know, right out of horror movies....... it is what it is though.


Num 19:11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days.

I guess this priest did not get the memo about God not liking us to parade human heads around on a platter. Might be good for Hollywood but we should keep this out of church.



This Catholic Church in Poland ran out of money for building Material but a visit to the local Graveyard seems to have fixed their situation. I am glad they got it sorted and should rent their building for the next Chainsaw Massacre movie to come out.

I hear you Brother David and why I am Scripture only. God is not the God of the dead..... (that is scripture!!!) guess Rome has yet to receive that memo either.

Blessings.

 

[RosaVera]

First, David posted in this thread concerning heaven and hell. The thread is about the first church. So he should have posted in that hell thread instead.



NO Rosa, that not right. I don't start a conversation about tongues with a Baptist. Just like no point in going into subjects using scripture only with Catholics about certain subjects. I am scripture only, and must be shown in scripture. I am not into other works or belief systems.

I am not opposed to or against Catholics, therefore I think we all ought to be nice.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Purgatory is a place of penance. Scripture says the Lord is more than able to present us without spot or blemish. The Lord is able not Purgatory or any mention of Purgatory or even the concept of Purgatory. It's a made up place and I do have more scriptures.

It's appointed to men to die once then judgement. The only Judgement ever talked about is those that are Jesus and the White throne Judgement. After you die you don't get a opportunity to get things right. There is no scripture for that.

Purgatory is a place where fire or whatever purify the believer for heaven. This concept alone trashes the power of the Blood of Jesus who went to the cross so that we would not have to endure the punishment we deserved.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

So, if the blood worked the first time, then there is no need to visit Purgatory. That is why it's hard to talk to Catholics about certain things because they make stuff up despite what scripture says. I meant no disrespect but I only believe the Catholic doctrine that is Word based, not the make believe stuff.

I hope this was more clear. This site in the TOS
1) The Holy Scriptures, in it's original form, is the inerrant Word of God.

means we stick with scripture only as proof of anything on this site.

i hope this clears stuff up.

blessings.

Michael, i can read English rather well and let me re-post your own words:

"It's not based on that Brother David. It's just that some Catholics blundered over to this thread by mistake. We have to be kind and remember they believe what we believe and add a bunch of stuff never mentioned in scriptures. I would rather see a valid argument presented with scripture only as it's hard to really respond to people who choose anything that moves as cannon. We need to understand what we are dealing with and be nice.

Scripture only please does not suit believers as it should.

blessings."

Some Catholics blundered over to this thread...???
We have to be kind...???
We have to understand what we are dealing with and be nice...???

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

[ixoye_8]

I think you both need to stop ..
neither of you are showing the love of Christ ..

Brother David is ill-informed with his assertions and Michael you are cheer leading him on .. do either of you know what spirit you are of ???

 

[MichaelH]

Michael, i can read English rather well and let me re-post your own words:

"It's not based on that Brother David. It's just that some Catholics blundered over to this thread by mistake. We have to be kind and remember they believe what we believe and add a bunch of stuff never mentioned in scriptures. I would rather see a valid argument presented with scripture only as it's hard to really respond to people who choose anything that moves as cannon. We need to understand what we are dealing with and be nice.

Scripture only please does not suit believers as it should.

blessings."

Some Catholics blundered over to this thread...???
We have to be kind...???
We have to understand what we are dealing with and be nice...???

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Rosa you missed my comment about David posting in the "first church" thread as opposed to the "hell thread" Catholics believe in Purgatory and know it's not scriptural so they would really have no valued input about hell not being able to back up any belief in purgatory. hence I said..... Blundered in as if i was Catholic and believed in purgatory I would stay way out of a thread like that knowing I would be eaten alive by those that know the word.

I stay out of all threads anyway I know very little scripture about. it's common sense.

Also Jesus comment in Matt 12:37 were concerning "IDLE" words....... that means dormant in the heart. Your taking scripture out of context here big time. Idle words are just spoken when activated they come from the belief system of the heart and no man can control their own tongue for out of the abundance of the Mouth the heart shall speak. It's these words that just come out we are judged on for they pin us to what we really believe and come without thought being idle. Compare Mark 11:23 with those verses, it paints a more clear picture.

You should have quoted James....... if any man offend not in word or deed he is a perfect man.

I think you both need to stop ..
neither of you are showing the love of Christ ..

Brother David is ill-informed with his assertions and Michael you are cheer leading him on .. do either of you know what spirit you are of ???

I am just having fun, I assume you don't like the Skull pictures. I have nothing against Catholics I even give to some of their causes... (well one) I don't think David is to far off though if you want to do a search for the way Catholics love dead human bodies. It's pretty strange if you ask me.

 

[ixoye_8]

I am just having fun, I assume you don't like the Skull pictures. I have nothing against Catholics I even give to some of their causes... (well one) I don't think David is to far off though if you want to do a search for the way Catholics love dead human bodies. It's pretty strange if you ask me.

I don't think you or David understand Catholics ..
I was one at one time, and owe a great deal to them ..
I like where I am now .. my communion with God is greater then ever ..
but Catholics have something as a denominational taught characteristic that I don't see anywhere to such a degree .. that would be DEVOTION .. this translates into loyalty and reverence to God .. in many ways the Jews and Catholics share a lot .. and many rituals you see are a byproduct of that .. but NEVER forget our God taught these things .. do this .. do that .. like this .. like that .. indeed we have liberty under the covenant of Faith, but that does not mean we have a different Creator .. my position is IF YOU LOVE GOD WITH YOUR ALL AND NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, you are pleasing God and my brother and sisters .. if you or anyone wants to help your brother or sister GREAT .. or if you want to pick on them .. then see if THEIR FATHER (who is yours too) is going to be happy with that ..

God Bless you and All ..

BTW: I know WAY TOO MUCH dirt on ALL denominations, but what does that behoove my brothers and sisters to spill it ???
and would my Father be pleased with me ???

just saying ..