Ethics for Supporting the Helpless in Public

I started reading a little about the history of america last night, as had a book about it called america, land of dreams.

It was very intersting. One name springs to mind is William Penn, who founded Philadelphia and the state of Pennyslvania. He was a Quaker. He was not a stranger, a Puritan or a Seperatist these groups who wanted religious freedom and fought with each other (and the native americans), he did not own slaves. he was not a Founding Father either.

he made a major contribution to how democracy works in america today, which is related to this post. I dont know too much about Quakers but I do know they place a lot of importance in LISTENING to God. Then confirming it with his Word.

The Quakers as I understand did not try to make their own separate village like the Puritans did and impose rules on people that quickly became burdensome. Only have to look at Calvinist Genevas history to realise how that just doesnt work. They were essentially in rebellion to the church of England anyway..thats how Independence came about, because americans didnt want to follow British or Crown law. But in making a new country, it had to have some kind of laws so ppl could live at peace with each other.

It seems like God was speaking to the Quakers and working out a solution so that all these different groups in america could live at peace with each otherand worship Him freely or in any other way they liked, even those that didnt know Him.

I guess thats why you see churches in america are so different from those of England. I must say alot in america seem to worship mammon, and claim that as christianity. But in america that is their freedom to do this.
 
Which reminds me of this american country song..

It goes 'the place where I worship is the wide open spaces'
 
I guess it depends what you mean by "much time". Off the top of my head we have Jesus defying and redefining the Sabbath laws, not washing hands as the Pharisees did, not fasting, eating grain out of the field on the Sabbath, keeping company with the "wrong" crowd, blasphemy, insinuating God was his actual father, and claiming the power to forgive sin. We also have Matthew chapter 23 in which Jesus berates the Pharisees, and also in Luke 11, and the moneychangers tables He updumped.
Paul was lowered out the window in a basket to escape, defy, the authorities. He also debated and argued, claimed Roman citizenship, directly against authority to sway the people and to live to fight another day. That is just without looking anything up.
I agree that we need to work within the system we have been given, but when, like Daniel, David, Esther, and others, man's law violates God's law or directives, action should be taken.

Point(s) taken, but the main demeanor of both Jesus & Paul was not about challenging the legal leadership. As far as religious leadership, the only challenge I can see is when is a response to the leaders (Pharisees and priests) leading people away from a personal relationship. As for eating grain out of the field and many of the others, The Jewish laws were an attempt to boil down religious living into a static set of rules. You can point to the places in scripture where many of them started, but by the time of Jesus, they were no longer keeping His people holy, but actually impairing a relationship with God.

The general thrust, and the explicit instructions in I Peter 2 in my earlier post do not allow us to treat legal issues as if they were the enemy. Our goal is changed lives. If you wish to change the legal system, by all means participate in the political discourse to have it changed..

We are to be bond servants. That is a special relationship. A bond servant represents his master. If he misrepresents his master, his life can be demanded. If he is not misrepresenting his master, his master can be held responsible for whatever that servant does or says in is name.

I do not say that there is never any justification for disobedience of the legal system, I am just saying that you must recognize the gravity of that defiance. Your good works, however you are convinced they are scripturally based, do not free you from the legal system. You may not make the leap from "my faith compels me so" to "anything that stands in my way is against God's will".
 
I, myself, do not like it when someone quotes a single verse of scripture and says 'that settles it for me'. There is too much Scripture for that. The Bible provides commentary on itself.

But 1 Peter 2 is particularly explicit. It requires little interpretation or explanation. It seems to me that all it takes is application.

Several have taken issue with my stance that the laws of society apply to our works except in the very extreme stances. I contend that it is our Christian duty to work within the law and ordinances. For His sake. Not for our sake. Not for the sake of the legal/social system.

Respectfully, Can anyone give a Christian rationale supported by scripture showing how doing what seems best for your ministry contrary to local ordinances can be consistent with the Bible as a whole, including how to interpret 1 Peter 2 in a consistent manner.
 
Point(s) taken, but the main demeanor of both Jesus & Paul was not about challenging the legal leadership. As far as religious leadership, the only challenge I can see is when is a response to the leaders (Pharisees and priests) leading people away from a personal relationship. As for eating grain out of the field and many of the others, The Jewish laws were an attempt to boil down religious living into a static set of rules. You can point to the places in scripture where many of them started, but by the time of Jesus, they were no longer keeping His people holy, but actually impairing a relationship with God.

The general thrust, and the explicit instructions in I Peter 2 in my earlier post do not allow us to treat legal issues as if they were the enemy. Our goal is changed lives. If you wish to change the legal system, by all means participate in the political discourse to have it changed..

We are to be bond servants. That is a special relationship. A bond servant represents his master. If he misrepresents his master, his life can be demanded. If he is not misrepresenting his master, his master can be held responsible for whatever that servant does or says in is name.

I do not say that there is never any justification for disobedience of the legal system, I am just saying that you must recognize the gravity of that defiance. Your good works, however you are convinced they are scripturally based, do not free you from the legal system. You may not make the leap from "my faith compels me so" to "anything that stands in my way is against God's will".
Well said. :)
 
Jesus had a court trial that was patently unjust but he didn't try to subvert or change the system. He didn't even challenge it but rose to those that challenged God. I suppose He knew that God's way was THE way and the other ways were just human ways.
anyway his triumph over the grave surely shows that whatever he had to endure, unjust laws etc...worked out for good.
God's Law on our hearts..God never punishes those who do this. We can't change the laws to suit us and, even if our power to do so, some evil person just gonna change them back and break them. So..anyway, legal battles hardly ever bear fruit.
it would be just wasting time when you could be feeding and clothing the hungry and preaching the gospel. We christians not political lobbyists. Leave that to pressure groups like Greenpeace. They got heaps of money and time to wage campaigns. (just don't come to my door, got no money to give them).
 
Jesus had a court trial that was patently unjust but he didn't try to subvert or change the system. He didn't even challenge it but rose to those that challenged God. I suppose He knew that God's way was THE way and the other ways were just human ways.
anyway his triumph over the grave surely shows that whatever he had to endure, unjust laws etc...worked out for good.
God's Law on our hearts..God never punishes those who do this. We can't change the laws to suit us and, even if our power to do so, some evil person just gonna change them back and break them. So..anyway, legal battles hardly ever bear fruit.
it would be just wasting time when you could be feeding and clothing the hungry and preaching the gospel. We christians not political lobbyists. Leave that to pressure groups like Greenpeace. They got heaps of money and time to wage campaigns. (just don't come to my door, got no money to give them).


Maybe I have been unclear, or maybe I am just misguided but I am not advocating being meekly submissive to whatever or whoever is in charge.

As Christians, we are always observing the society around us. We note where we can have positive impact, and rejoice when we see God working. We also take note of where the society we are in fails to promote the best in its citizens, even if we can’t expect it to be truly godly.

I believe that if we, as the body of Christ, see the ills of society and see that the laws either do not help its citizens or actively discourages positive actions, it is our duty to Christ to fight these ills. Not every Christian will have the same part to play and most may be changing society simply by changing lives within that society. But we should be using whatever avenues society provides to promote His kingdom.

We can enlist media to encourage support.

There are Christian lobby groups just as there are for other interests.

We can vote for candidates that represent our interests. We can become candidates ourselves.

Most states in the US allow citizens to collect signatures on petitions and the citizens themselves put legal propositions on the ballot.

Courts are where laws are interpreted and checked against higher laws. Many times the most efficient and longest lasting remedy to unjust laws and unjust application of laws is a court challenge. In the US, in practical terms, just what the law is and what it means can come down to just what 5 out of 9 Supreme Court Justices say it is and means.

All this can and should be done to promote an environment where Christ’s work can be accomplished openly.

All of this is working within the law.
 
I, myself, do not like it when someone quotes a single verse of scripture and says 'that settles it for me'. There is too much Scripture for that. The Bible provides commentary on itself.

But 1 Peter 2 is particularly explicit. It requires little interpretation or explanation. It seems to me that all it takes is application.

Several have taken issue with my stance that the laws of society apply to our works except in the very extreme stances. I contend that it is our Christian duty to work within the law and ordinances. For His sake. Not for our sake. Not for the sake of the legal/social system.

Respectfully, Can anyone give a Christian rationale supported by scripture showing how doing what seems best for your ministry contrary to local ordinances can be consistent with the Bible as a whole, including how to interpret 1 Peter 2 in a consistent manner.
One cannot deny 1 Peter 2 and Romans 13 in that we are to obey governing authorities. But I think there are exceptions to the rule. Jesus warns that the disciples will be brought up on charges for His name sake. To me, then, this means some law must be broken in the governing authorities eyes, even if they are trumped up charges.
Matthew 10:
17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

I think Acts 4 and 5 give a good insight of when defying legal authority is warranted.
Acts 4:
18 So they (the Sanhedrin) called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. 20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” 21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them, because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done.
Again in Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28 saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!” 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.
....40 And they agreed with him, and when they had called for the apostles and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

I would hope preaching and witnessing in Jesus' name would not become illegal, but we are seeing the first steps towards that possibility with Christian-phobic atheists and homosexuals trying to label Bible teachings as hate speech, and therefore outlawing certain messages they don't like.
 
As far as how to interpret 1 Peter 2:
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
We must remember to do whatever we do to please God, for the Lord's sake.
God's will is that we do good. Yeah, I know, define what is good....
Honor all people and the king. Just like the commandment to honor your parents. I think we would agree that if your parent told you to steal something or hurt someone, we should not obey what they say. God's law overrides man's, so there are exceptions to the general statement to honor the king and submit to all ordinances.
 
Not using liberty as a cloak for vice...seems to spring out to me.

If ppl using Jesus name to make money and rip off people or evade taxes, then no. Its wrong. Because, even Jesus paid that tax, God provided a coin in a fish to pay it.
He threw those money changers and merchants out of the temple.

In book of acts, the early church persecution is extreme. I dont know bout america but in other countries it can be pretty bad, esp when they hear gospel for first time. Lots of opposition. . As said before,christians in china had to go underground. If they feeding the homeless and looking after orphans etc they would be put in jail cos thats supposed to be the govt job, or not even that, theres not meant to be anybody starving or in need. They just want to turn a blind eye. Millions of girl babies get abandoned on the side the road becos of govt policy. OK, you can lobby all you want to change the law but how long would that take? Someone in power can easily change it back. Unless God changes all those despots and officials hearts its not going to work. What they really need is the gospel, to hear it and also act on it.

We cant subsitiute man made laws and law enforcement for Gods law written on peoples hearts.
 
Who defines what constitutes "Natural law"? Society? Philosophers? Judges? What if that group changes their mind? I mean this whole thread is based on a definition made by someone. From whence comes it? What is the end game? If the scriptures are not the basis for Life, then what does it matter any scenario?


My Case For Natural Law
To understand “Natural Law” is to understand “what should justly be the law;” for we should be able to agree in the Christian faith, that “Natural Law” is that “delegated just-environment” from God before mankind establishes “civil law.” Thus in order for civil law to be just, it must by our Christian standards reflect “God's delegation of justice.”
Remember that Natural Law is about “justice” not righteousness, even though justice has a moral precedent. Therefore to understand Natural Law is not to understand “righteousness” but instead simply “justice;” for “Righteousness is to obtain the mind of Christ in all things” and “Justice is reactive action to despotism .” Despotism is violence to person and property, and all violence is not of God.


Since the death and resurrection of our Savior, a dichotomy has existed between “Theological Voluntarism (divine command)” and “(Intellectualism by Reason).” The stoic philosophers prior to Christ established what is called “right-reason (or intellectualism)” to delineate what is “Natural Law” or the “Law of Nature.” This of course was in conflict with OT divine command or “Voluntarism” where the Ten Commandments via Mosaic Law “was a compulsory and legal contract with Israel.”

Yet then came Christ and Paul who would establish “non-legalistic voluntarism” which would cause us to “write the law upon our hearts. ()” Paul spent almost half his efforts in the NT explaining the application of our “New contract or covenant.” Yet the great question rages, then is there to be any law in society and “what laws in society can be just?” Thus we have a commission to know what is “just-law in society.” If we support despotism, we annihilate our own church to destruction: for we have a duty to “support just-law” for our survival to spread the gospel is mandated.

Though I am a protestant Christian, I am highly indebted to the Catholic church for being incredible contributors to the development of Natural Law, thus catholic and protestant contributors are mentioned. St Thomas Aquinas in the legacy of Aristotle would advocate that “right-reason” in each person has the ability to determine in their conscience certain moral norms regarding Natural Law, though some in the Catholic church would argue that “proper legal justice and God's justice” should be the same and then orchestrated by divine command, many others were opposed. Though inside the Catholic church there were divisions regarding “the Aquinas legacy of right reason” and many off-chutes of constructed “divine command,” there also were many historic events that would shape the understanding of Natural Law overall. The Reformation, Protestantism, Absolutism, the decline of Absolutism, the Dutch Rebellion, the English Civil War, the Glorious Revolution, the enlightenment, the industrial revolution and the American Revolution, all contributed to endless exchanges regarding “what is Natural Law?” After all “how is the law supposed to materialize in society “justly?”

Today we have secular ethicists like Murray Rothbard and many in the faith as well that will endorse the stoics and the Thomistic tradition of “right reason” to ascertain and develop what is “Just-Natural Law,” an ethical apparatus of “justice” obtained by reason; a position that “all aggress is immoral.”

However it was the Puritan “John Locke” on the back of the Glorious Revolution in Britain that constructed a thesis for a revised kind of “divine voluntarism” but with an incredible difference to support the same just-position. His version of divine command theory was focused on “justice instead of righteousness;” for his focus was on life, liberty and property. Thus he would arrive at the same place that reason-based “intellectual Thomistic natural law” can arrive to, but used a deontological code from scripture to do it. Thus if Rothbard and Thomistic Christians arrive at “Just-Natural Law” by reason, and those in the Christian Lockean tradition arrive at “Just-Natural Law” by scripture, then technically they are both from two sides in one accord, yet their derivations are different.

In the same way that Locke was able to arrive at life, liberty and property by Gods delegation to Adam in scripture that three precedents were in place (life, liberty and property), I am also there in this Lockean position, but with furthering fortification to examine contracts from heaven. For I will contend that from scripture that life, liberty and property were indeed present, but I will also contend that “covenants” will drive the delegation of Natural Rights; for I contend that “God contracts with mankind.”

For the old voluntarism of Mosaic Law would usher in divine command theory to force us righteous by ruthless men, causing every kind of wretched theocracy, and dictatorship. Paul would in more ways than can be counted in the New Testament condemned this kind of arbitrary law, though he would also admonish for submission in the process when possible. Christ also would condemn the compulsion of arbitrary law, and stand up publicly against it; for He was murdered upon a cross for standing up against it. Yet Christ did not contest “just law (lawful reaction to the trespass (aggress) against life, liberty and property).” Christ stood against “arbitrary unjust law.”

For Locke is good to denote an ethical deontological substrate of justice from scripture but could have in my opinion fortified his position by becoming rigid in his applications, also realizing that intellectualism can resolve the same substrate, and by fortification regarding this contract in Genesis to the human race.

Genesis
1. And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5. And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7. And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
8. And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9. And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10. And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11. And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13. I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15. And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

It is by this “unilateral contract” or “delegation” from God that we are established from scripture our primordial Natural Rights. For we are not allowed to kill, or harm, and the earth and all that is in it is given to us to possess. In Genesis this is also reflected but also with extraordinary emphasis regarding “sovereignty” or “total dominion and authority.”

Thus we cannot kill anybody

Thus we cannot harm anybody

Thus we may own the earth and everything in it.

* Thus we may not eat the “live-blood” of a “living” animal. - This is a case for animal cruelty or the treatment of blood regarding a live animal. This is highly debated and was even debated in the New Testament.

Therefore Natural Law is that apparatus of “justice” where we are to be “non-violent” to each other regarding person and property. God is the only “rightful” interventionist as the “highest property authority.” Thus Israel under the Mosaic Contract was able to be commanded unto violence to kill but they/Israel (the people) on their own volition without God were not able to harm a hair on another persons head. Thanks to Christ our new covenant removes the Mosaic Covenant of compulsion and replaced it with a better voluntary contract/covenant of grace, where now the law unto righteousness is written upon our hearts, save “just-law” which is not only written upon our hearts but can also “ethically be enforced in society. For Christ and Paul did denounce the compulsion of “arbitrary law unto righteousness saying it is dead” but never denounced “just-law” from Gods unilateral rainbow covenant of justice.

Natural Rights – Thus by the Unilateral Rainbow Covenant, our Natural Rights are formed by two restraints and one offering. A restraint to kill, a restraint to harm, and an offering of property. However some say, “Yes but since God gave property to “all people” thus would that not indicate that the world is ours as “common property?” I will say no, because of a myriad of contexts all through scripture where God allocated property to the “individual.” However all property according to scripture “must be honest” which means its void of corruption, deceit and theft.

Let us realize also that today “Natural Rights” are typically not the same thing as “Human Rights using todays terminology.” For Natural Rights are “embodied in us from conception” in a construct known as “Natural Law” which as Christians we can all agree derives from God's Rainbow Unilateral Covenant.

“Human Rights Terminology” on the other hand are typically embedded into human-law by powers that be, who engineer a “delivery method” by means of “a legal construct” that will by rule of law, positive law, or legislation determine what society is allowed to do or what they cannot do in order to protect certain “rights.” Human rights “may” or “may not” reflect “Natural Rights.” Typically the key difference in Natural Rights and Human Rights is “derivation.”
Example: Freedom of Speech is a “Natural Right” yet a “Right of College Education” is often in the confines of Socialism, fought for as a “human right.” The best way to differentiate the two, is that Natural Rights are embodied at birth; no government or human institution gave them to you, and “ethically” no human institution or government can take them away. Yet a government may “deliver” free college by means of legal plunder to redistribute whats taken from some people and give that to other people as a proposed “legal right,” which is unjust law because it requires “violence to property.”

Thus we are not “born with freedom of free college,” though we are born with the natural right of “liberty” to pursue college unabated. What makes the U.S. constitution unique is that “to a degree” it gives credence to “Natural Rights” or what is referred to as “unalienable rights.” Many constitutions around the world have “human rights in them” but few have “Natural Rights protected with “restraint to government.”
 
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I would like to present two scenarios. The First is obedience to authority within a society with review and redress available to common citizens as in most societies stemming from Europe. The second is obedience to authority in a repressive society that actively outlaws and otherwise oppresses Christianity.


In the first case, all avenues should be explored to advance the Lord’s work, but let God do battle. Just as he hardened Pharaoh’s heart in the time of Moses, He can guide circumstances to achieve His ends, which we may not clearly see. In our society, we can petition, campaign, request judicial review, and vote. Also, in our society, the concept of civil disobedience is not _necessarily_ a defying of authority but an integral part of public discourse in the tradition of Henry David Thoreau, who for our readers not familiar with U.S. History, went to jail rather than submit to laws he felt were unjust. If we take that route, we should take care to keep a civil countenance and also be ready to suffer the social consequences. We should also understand that it is God’s battle, not ours. We are foot soldiers, not commanders. We should not look to have society bow to us and our concerns; rather it is up to us to find ways of advancing His kingdom.


I agree with your approach and agree that it congeals to good scriptural strategy.


If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law.” - Henry David Thoreau

Thoreau's position is often ethical from my perspective, for despotic violence to other people are never to be supported, thus Natural Law is that just-precedent to measure when the law "harms the innocent" or "defends the innocent."

However to your wise points about "battle," they are indeed taken to heart; for I am in agreement that our mission is to strive to remain benign where we may accomplish more in the realm of the Spirit, where forces of darkness are shredded by His power.

Thus Smith-Town is under our microscope to act "ethically." If they create a "lawful edict" that will force "injustice" to the homeless, the businesses or a citizen, then is "non-cooperation" or public "disapproval" from a Christian Smith-Town citizen justified by scripture? Or should the "Smith-Town citizen remain obedient, quiet and pray? Should they just communicate the injustice to friends and church members, or communicate it publicly with all kindness? Should they protest publicly with a kind disposition? Should they encourage an ethical candidate to run for election to repeal the unjust edict?

Should there be any political involvement to “support” ethics from scripture, ethics that are grounded in Natural Rights Theory?

Thank you Siloam for the amazing feedback
 
Thus we may own the earth and everything in it.

It's interesting that the ancient Hebrews also read that passage in genesis and saw a "natural law" (i.e., a Noahide law for all mankind, the "sons of Noah," and later a separate Mosaic law only for the Hebrews, the "sons of Israel").

If we say that a right to property is implied in scripture (and the Hebrews also saw this right in their fifth Noahide law, "do not steal",) we must also recognize other scriptures that imply a natural responsibility to share wealth. For example, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in part for not helping the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:49). So if we do conclude that we have a right to own property, should we not also conclude that we do not have a right to hoard abundance while others suffer for want? If we find this to be so, wouldn't just laws protect nations against excessive hoarders, and ensure a more even distribution of resources?
 
Would you agree that the Mosaic covenant was “compulsory” by contract, and that the “law-construct” rested on top of the delegation of Natural Rights as a consensual contract? Meaning the Israelites “was offered the contract,” “they chose to obey the contract” and they “ratified the contract” which then caused them to “denounce” their Natural Rights before God, yet not before other men outside the nation. Today we are in the same predicament regarding our contract of salvation; for we “give up all things to Him” and become a “slave to Christ,” yet we are not slaves to the world.
I presume that I could agree with this.
I am afraid that this question is too complicated for me
smile.png

My apologies for the complexity.

Basically God will “contract with mankind” (covenants), which is a theological axiom or maxim.

For example: God contracted with all of us on earth in Genesis 9; (Rainbow Covenant/ Natural Law) when He gave us restraint regarding violence, but also granted us “ownership of the earth” authority over the earth and everything in it. This its a unilateral contract to “everyone.”

God also contracted with Noah personally by offering him a deal. “Build an ark and your family will be spared.”
With Abraham he had a contract of expanding his family, making him a father of many nations.
With David that his seed would come and establish His throne forever.
With us from Christ, which is a covenant of all covenants where by salvation we shall live forever.

Thus my question was to ask, do you believe that Natural Law from Genesis 9 is in conflict with our covenant of salvation or is in conflict with any of His covenants, including the Mosaic covenant? For I argue that no covenant God ever agreed to with mankind is in conflict.

Thus from Natural Law “do not kill or harm,” is not in conflict with the Mosaic covenant, nor is it in conflict with our New Testament precepts. For mankind on his “own volition” has never been permitted to arbitrarily kill or harm. I was contending a case for compatibility and that God is not in conflict with his Covenants. However we do “lose our Natural Rights to God” when we contract with him whether in the Mosaic contract of old, or our new contract of Salavtion. Thus we never lose our Natural Rights to men, but only to God.

I
I consider good prevention as the most needed tool in society. If society practices non-functional ways of social live, we should try to solve the very causes. E.g. we see poor and helpless people. We can give them food but it does not solve their helplessness. If we give them lessons, education, vocational course etc., they can find a job and become self-sufficient. If it is clear that lack of education is the main cause of the helplessness in society, we should support such laws and changes that will create well- educated and literate society. We could go also deeper in search of possible causes and try to solve them.

I prefer common sense than observance of one specific ethical code. In this case I would choose golden mean but in another I may support radical and “unjust” solution.

I must agree that education is the key to transforming poverty to honest sustainability and prosperity.

How does the Smith-Town City Council get the money ethically to educate the poor? Or is this function only possible for the church to ethically engage; for education costs money? Either the money is given or taken in order to educate. Giving the money does not trespass against Natural Rights, yet taking the money by violence-to-property does?

Thus if the Smith-Town City Council lawfully expropriates the money by force from its citizens, is that “moral” or “just” according to Natural Rights Theory?

Should the church be responsible for educating the poor, in order for the “action to educate” to remain ethical?

In the action that Smith-Town expropriates the money to educate the poor, are we to obey them taking it from us, disobey them from taking it from us, or obey them taking it from us “as we denounce its immoral operation?”

For I contend that we should “obey” government as we also “denounce its unethical operations” when possible.
 
Right, you can "say" it's from the scriptures and even use the verse to back it up, but that's not the issue: the issue is the definition and who definds it.

But who says? Webster? Society? If we don't have the same definition then how can one discuss. This is why I don't like to use vernacular outside of the scriptures. It's bad enough when people know what the "trinity" is or the "rapture" is, which are not in the scriptures by name, and still don't agree. That's all I'm saying.

I believe scripture is the "definitive source" for defining the rules of "justice" in "Natural Law." Primarily the first and ninth chapters of Genesis.

Definition: Rights that people supposedly have under natural law. The Declaration of Independence of the United States lists life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as natural rights.

Is it possible that Franklin, Adams and Jefferson all three were "Lockean disciples" and all three got property wrong in the Declaration of Independence, only then to jot down a vague description of happiness that abandons Natural Rights Theory? I suspect that "possibly" Jefferson was the only one of the three who would of liked to remain in place to protect "property" or to Lockean terminology "estate."

I contend that "Life and Liberty" is guarded as "Natural Rights in the U.S. Bill of Rights" yet I contend also that the pursuit of happiness was a ploy by Franklin and others to "establish unjust ambiguous compulsory law, compulsory big banks, monetary monopolies and forced expropriation." They got "two out of three" correct "ethically" in my opinion, and am grateful that ethics are apart of the supreme mandate.
 
I am still internalizing Great Fiction’s posts. It has been 40 years since I was in college, and although I have continued to improve my education, most formal coursework has been more technically oriented than the philosophical and political sources Great Fiction sights, so I need to do some studying. I have (and will continue to save) posts in this thread so I can refer to them offline.

However, I agree with Great Fiction's plain English summary view: “For I contend that we should “obey” government as we also “denounce its unethical operations” when possible.”

If I have seemed a little one sided or insistent in this thread, please know that in some part, it was a reaction I was having to another thread. Even there, the problem is more a problem with my outlook than the posts themselves.

I hope I did not cause frustration. If so I beg forgiveness.
 
Someone can claim to own something, but ultimately IMO God created everything, and He owns it. He lets us use it and we were commanded to have dominion over the earth.

Thank you for your attention to detail dUmPsTeR

In the fields of theology, philosophy and ethics, there is emerging terminology that may describe more accurately your position.

You may prefer:

Vicegerent
1. an officer appointed as deputy by and to a sovereign or supreme chief.
2. a deputy in general.
3.exercising delegated powers.
4.characterized by delegation of powers.

In essence I agree with you that only God has “final authority” yet I would contend that He can delegate “total authority” to us regarding His property. Thus I am positioned to believe that this is a type of “ownership” since one is operating with authority over what is delegated to them. The root word of ownership is “own” meaning its “yours to possess, rule over or control.”

Also I would agree that any ownership we have here in this world is “temporary” which would only constitute “natural ownership.”

Now man has adulterated this by fabricating laws, treatise, statutes, contracts, etc. for the love of greed and control of the masses. A great deal of that also distracts from God and man uses it make himself god. Example: in America the Constitution says, 'We the People', but there is a trick there. The 'P' capitalized in people, according to proper grammar, designates that that document only applies to those that signed it and possibly congress, and residents of the District of Columbia.

That is just a small clue as to the trickery and deception that abounds. Those largely to blame for this is attorneys. Even the word, attorney/s has deceitful meaning.

I'm going to stop there before I get into a rant.

I believe the Bill of Rights to be “ethical” and a major leap forward to establish “ethics in supreme law” in the form of “Rule of Law,” also reflecting Natural Law from scripture. Yet the Bill of Rights should have been extended to protect “property.”

Thus we have every kind of financial woe due to this failure. Without the protection of property, despotism is able to invade the law and commandeer property immorally causing wretched corporatism, thus poverty materializes from unethical precedents to simply trade and own property.

There was however due to “vertical decentralization” a natural barrier to commandeer property for a small time period in remote regions, but that quickly eroded by increasing encroachment of unjust law. Its does not take long for arbitrary power to commandeer property or transfer it to advantaged entities by means of legal-plunder.
 
Ok I get the disctinct impression my posts are being ignored but nevermind. Interesting discussion, but then again apparently a female perspective doesnt count in a court of law.

Despite Mary being the first to see Jesus when he was resurrected.
 
Yes, man-made law can mimic Gods' law and IMO how man-made law has a beginning, but then man-made law diverts into evil.

A lot of it has to do with trickery and deception by turning words into terms and fabricating definitions within the law to suit those that would bring about tyranny on the masses. Here is an example: in America under the premise of freeing the slaves, law makers fabricated amendments to the constitution. The slaves were freed from private ownership, but by using one word, 'citizen', it did away with the masses being sovereign people and enslaved everyone.

Is it possible that the civil war and the reconstruction amendments were not about slavery but were about power; for if the U.S. government simply wanted to fix slavery, then all they had to do was “enforce the law.” For we already had the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence for any administration to stand on. Yet its understandable that “enforcing the law” would have also led to war.

Its a shame that hideous slavery is a scar in our history.

Contracts: no one or a church should have to contract. When anyone or a church is told they have to do it, that is coercion and constitutes fraud. Again, trickery and deception. Ever notice how a contract will say, 'you agree to these TERMS?', that's a clue that should set off an alarm to watch out.

Violence to contract, or not have a church? The church, or a better word might be congregation, are a body of believers and they should be allowed to freely assemble. Now take note, there is an illusion that abounds in America, that we are given rights by a piece of paper(constitution), but it only applies to congress and the residents of D.C.. How can we know this is true? Just look at what is going on with churches and Christians in America. Those fabricated fictional rights are being violated.

I agree about your position regarding coercion.

Yet I would like to offer a persuasion that if the Rule of Law is not documented that we have “Natural Rights” then how do you bring about a cohesive lawful structure for a country?” For if the Rule of Law is not documented then how will you what it is?

Yet human rights are derived from paper, yet I will contend that “protected Natural Rights” derive from God. You can then “document that your Natural Rights derive from God and that government is restrained by law to take them. Which we have in the U.S. in part.

Government has no authority, but it uses intimidation to reign in tyranny. It is actually a corporation posing as a government, but through coercion the masses bow down through acquiescence and ignorant consent. A big part of how they get away with this is through main stream mis-leadia and control of the public fool system.

I believe a strictly ethical State is possible that can react to despotism.

Licenses = great fiction, literally, not a jab at you GF. Licenses were brought about for control/power and as a way to get mammon from the masses. It only works if people acquiesce.

I posted this in another thread, but it applies here too. Ex 20: 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

God doesn't want man to be lorded over by other men to the point of bondage.

Forgive me dUmPsTeR, I was simply questioning the premise. I will agree that most licensing structures we witness in society today are predicated on Socialistic violence. However I do believe in private and participatory licensing (consensual licensing).

As for myself, I would not engage the city counsel. It is like a court. Man-made court as we know it in America is likened to witch-craft. Again, using language as trickery. Just the word, 'summons', as to be summonsed to court is like summonsing evil.

Yet surely if Smith-Town had a law that says, “Killing (committing aggress) is wrong and you will be prosecuted for it,” then you would support Smith-Town then? Or do you support lawless anarchy? Or do you feel that Smith-Town simply cant address the homeless or businesses?

I know many will object to what I have posted here, but I have been doing a great deal of searching for truth as to what is going on. I've been reading definitions in law dictionaries, constitutions, statutes, court cases, treatise, minutes from congress, etc. etc.

As to my decision about feeding the people at a local park - I myself at one time needed food from others because I was homeless. I looked forward to Saturday because a church would have a service in the park and they would feed and help clothe people. If said 'Smith-town' church did so, I believe they wouldn't be with-out help to do so. I myself after being able to support myself have helped in such efforts. I, in no way, mention this to bring any attention towards me. It's not about me.

It sounds like your life experience can offer a great deal of wisdom to many. I for one have incredible respect that you were able to overcome homelessness, for all of us have our trials and challenges, and overcoming all our individual deficits strengthens us as a body.

Phew! Okay, I'm done for now. Thanks for your time and attention. No laughing. (just kidding about the no laughing part
wink.png

You are a blessing to me dUmPsTeR and thank you for the amazing amount of feedback!
 
Hmm...


Not sure I entirely agree with this well known protest song but I do wonder about greed and about whether this world could originally have been a common treasury for all.

FYI - The diggers were a Christian Proto-Communistic effort in 17th Century England.

Its my position that Communism is predicated on violence, yet will admit that the Diggers in England were highly oppressed by feudalistic Monarchy which was also predicated on violence.
 
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