Ethics for Supporting the Helpless in Public

This might be a silly statement, but in all reality sometimes it is better to give up our "rights" to keep peace with everyone.

I must agree, for every individual circumstance forces us to consider ramifications.

Can you give the scriptural references to the quote below? Thanks!

********"Thus I obediently pay taxes, but I reject taxes “ethically” as despotic trespass against property according to Natural Rights from scripture. I also embrace obedience to my State officials because Christ has mandated that I do so, yet in my conviction from scripture I am to condemn all taxation and ambiguous compulsory law as violence. For we should in our unanimity “support” just-law only, so that our posterity will hopefully not suffer the same violence."*******

Ethically Taxes is theft - (NOTE: I pay taxes for it is my Christian ethic to pay them)
For what are taxes? Taxation exists when "organized political means" will use "violence to expropriate and confiscate property (money)" without permission from the just-owner of the property (money).

Ethical Ownership - Just-authority over honest property.
Just authority is established by Natural Rights. Natural Rights is delegated by God.

Illegitimate Ownership - Unjust-authority over taken property

Yet though most governments "take property unjustly" we as Christians are to still operate with a precedent to respect ruling authority unless despotism permeates. Thus I pay taxes if its forcibly required. Yet we are wise to educate the injustice and elect ourselves an "ethical government" that will not operate in the confines of arbitrary theft to finance immoral Socialism.

Here is my scriptural support – Thou shalt not steal
Thus we should not support theft ethically in our communication, or vote for it, even if we are lawfully required to suffer it.

I also contend that Christ condemned taxation and separated out what was Gods money (real money) and what was “compulsory money from despotic government (a perversion of money).”
 
Well let's go with the greatest commandments. Love God with everything you have, and love your neighbor. All of the Bibles ethics are hinged on those. So this church has poor and helpless neighbors that need help. The church must continue to help them.
The church also has neighbors who are the businesses. Harming them is wrong. So if the church is unwilling to find another way to help the helpless, then, considering scriptural ethics, the city should pass and enforce law that would bring about the church fulfilling their charge to love their neighbors, all of them. Helping the church find a better facility in a proper location would go a long way in curing the problem.
Forcing the church to relocate their service to the helpless should be done in conjunction with making an easier transition to the new location.
In a real world example, we have in our area the Isaiah 53 ministries which helps the helpless, homeless, poor and works on the reasons those people are in those situations in the first place. They began a mobile food service taking the help directly to where the homeless were. The government stepped in and hassled them with law, permit and code requirements. So Isaiah 53 had to find new places to locate to help these people. News stories on this caused new opportunities and funding for the ministry. So just because the government does wrong, God can still use it as a tool to open doors which speaks all the more for the working of God.
 
Just a couple of points that come to my mind.
1. No one truly owns anything. It all belongs to God.

Thank you dUmPsTeR kindly for you contribution

If God truly owns a thing and then says, "I give this thing to you to own," then do you own it?

More accurately according to Natural Rights Theory from scripture; If God truly owns a thing, and says, "I give this "Natural thing" to you to own for a "natural season," which is the span of your "Natural Life," then do you own it for your Natural Life.

For the gift of the earth "to mankind" is a "contract of temporary ownership" from God, and God "honors" His contracts with mankind. However there are some "rules" to the contract, which are, you may not kill, harm or steal. Thus had "just-grounds" to wipe out Adams descendants, save Noah and his family.

However God being the "contract delegation" administrator never put in a clause that said, "He cannot intervene." Thus Him being the "Highest Authority" may do as He sees fit; yet to wisdom we can know by His word that He he does not contradict His own word, or fail to honor it.

Ownership is simply "authority" over a thing; legitimate or just-authority is authority over "honest-property."
 
2. Man made law is fiction fabricated and through acquiescence by coercion to deflect from the only true law that comes from above.

Do you believe that man-made law can reflect “Natural Law” from scripture.

3. As was already mentioned, if the church entered into contract (301 C?), then it enters into consent to be controlled by government incorporated.

I agree, if the church signs a contract that says, “I am subservient to the compulsory State to “legally” fulfill all things in this contract, then the contract holds the church accountable to “honor and fulfill any/all “just or unjust” mandates in the contract. Thus a church must read the fine print, and they must “realize who they are contracting with, which again forces the church to consider “ethics.”

If the contract puts the church in an indebted position, then scripture admonishes the church regarding debt. Also again if the contract violates Natural Law, or the contract of salvation, then the church engages in a sinful contract with the compulsory State.

Yet what of violence to contract? What if the law says you “must” contract with the compulsory State or not have a church? What is right then?

One thing I find disheartening; Example - When and where does God make something illegal without getting a license?

Is it possible that a “license” is a “permission slip from authority to perform an action or own property?” We must ask, when does “authority to give permission become legitimate.”

Thus if a government said, “You must have a “license” to preach the gospel publicly, then by what authority does the government “issue the permission.” For surely it isn't God's authority; for Christ already commissioned us to go forth two thousand years ago, thus by what authority is left to obstruct what God has already ordained to action?

We could of course find every rigid opportunity to disobey government but I would contend that we miss our greatest mandate from scripture which is to love, and that would include those in authority over us. Thus for me personally, I do not seek to protest every license, or law, but instead communicate the "morality" or "ethics" of the precedent of the law, so that we might avoid unjust law and compulsory licenses coming from illegitimate authority in the future; for our political participation unto ethics is a natural defense for our posterity. For we do have in place a defaulted premise to honor the apparatus of the law, even when its perverted, yet we are also given grounds to reject despotism as the Spirit leads.

Okay, staying on topic and what I would do if it was for me to decide; I would feed the people in a near by public park and keep the church where it is.

Yet you mention that you would “do these things.” which are good, and wholesome which move to restoration, yet what if the church and the businesses wont or is also unable to budge in Smith-Town?

Analogously you are a Christian citizen in Smith-Town and are faced with a decision to “support” or “reject” the city-council's lawful intervention or inaction one way or the other? How would you support, reject, abstain or admonish regarding the city-council's intervention or inaction either way? Will you “involve” yourself politically on any level, whether by engaging kind communication to your friends, your church or the public; will you vote, protest, or admonish the City? Will you remain silent and benign to only pray?

For we could always admonish the businesses or the church in play, yet that avoids societal ethics. I propose, “what is good in the confines of the law according to Natural Rights Theory from scripture?”
 
I don’t understand the posts that say that we are immune or may ignore to the laws of man.

I Peter 2:13-17 (NASB)
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Is this not clear? Is it ambiguous?

Whenever at all possible, we need to work towards our (His) goals within the social and legal structure in which we find ourselves. This does not mean that Christians need to allow the world to dictate our beliefs or our actions in His behalf, but we must be sure we are not being stubborn and requiring the society in which we live to submit to us.

We are also not wrong to expect that society to follow its own laws when dealing with us. Paul did not refrain from appealing to his citizenship in dealing with Roman Tribune.

Acts 22:24-28 (NASB)

24 the commander ordered him to be brought into the barracks, stating that he should be examined by scourging so that he might find out the reason why they were shouting against him that way. 25 But when they stretched him out with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, "Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman and uncondemned?" 26 When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and told him, saying, "What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman." 27 The commander came and said to him, "Tell me, are you a Roman?" And he said, "Yes." 28 The commander answered, "I acquired this citizenship with a large sum of money." And Paul said, "But I was actually born a citizen."
 
Who defines what constitutes "Natural law"? Society? Philosophers? Judges? What if that group changes their mind? I mean this whole thread is based on a definition made by someone. From whence comes it? What is the end game? If the scriptures are not the basis for Life, then what does it matter any scenario?
 
Well let's go with the greatest commandments. Love God with everything you have, and love your neighbor. All of the Bibles ethics are hinged on those. So this church has poor and helpless neighbors that need help. The church must continue to help them.

Thank you Big Moose for your contribution, also for theorizing action from the City Council.

I also agree that love is our prime directive my friend

The church also has neighbors who are the businesses. Harming them is wrong. So if the church is unwilling to find another way to help the helpless, then, considering scriptural ethics, the city should pass and enforce law that would bring about the church fulfilling their charge to love their neighbors, all of them. Helping the church find a better facility in a proper location would go a long way in curing the problem.

Forcing the church to relocate their service to the helpless should be done in conjunction with making an easier transition to the new location.

I am quite elated to explore your hypothesis! May I offer a proposal?

If “ethics” are a “set of rules” which exist on a “deontological (duty-bound) substrate”, then which “substrate” can the city council ethically “enforce a law that would bring about the church fulfilling their charge to love their neighbors, all of them.”

Let me bring clarity to my proposal

1. - Natural Rights Theory is “one” deontological substrate which was the “first” deontological substrate from Genesis. The rules are simple – No person shall commit an act of “aggress” intiitated violence to a person's life, liberty or property.

2. - Salvation is our “Christian” deontological substrate, which by our individual voluntary volition, contractually “enslaves us” to be bond-servants to Christ; as a bond-servant to Christ, our prime directive is to “love” Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and then also our neighbors as ourselves.

Therefore may I point out, that the Christian substrate is “not in conflict” with Natural Rights Theory but instead rests perfectly on top of it. Meaning its wrong by Natural Rights Theory to act with initiating violence, yet Christ also rejected all worldly aggress also. Thus both substrates are in harmony.

Therefore if society at large in Smith-Town are “only Christians in part” then which substrate should be forced upon society by the City ethically? For if the city council “makes a law” that is by “Christian ethics” then they must enforce all “Christian ethics.” Thus, if all Christian ethics are to be enforced, then should the City council according to scripture make a law for the whole city to be baptized and saved also using force? For repentance and baptism is also ethical for Christianity?

Do you think that the city council should be bound to create law upon the substrate of Natural Rights Theory or the Christian contract of salvation, since salvation is voluntary and Natural Rights is mandatory according to scripture?”

In a real world example, we have in our area the ministries which helps the helpless, homeless, poor and works on the reasons those people are in those situations in the first place. They began a mobile food service taking the help directly to where the homeless were. The government stepped in and hassled them with law, permit and code requirements. So had to find new places to locate to help these people. News stories on this caused new opportunities and funding for the ministry. So just because the government does wrong, God can still use it as a tool to open doors which speaks all the more for the working of God.

Thank you for the incredible testimony, this provides furthering proof that an unjust precedent in the law cannot stop the power of Christ from reaching those who are in need.

It is my hope that our posterity will be wiser than my generation and remove the unjust precedents in the law peaceably.
 
I don’t understand the posts that say that we are immune or may ignore to the laws of man.

I Peter 2:13-17 (NASB)
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Is this not clear? Is it ambiguous?

May I fortify your virtuous concern regarding the law of the land; for we indeed must respect it. I do not advocate disobedience to the law as a precedent, I advocated obedience to it, yet I do not advocate obedience to “despotism” which frequently will invade the confines of the law. For it is not the law itself that is virtuous but the law's precedent which may constitute the most hideous of evils unto violence to the innocent, or the most virtuous defense of the innocent.

It really comes down to a question? Do you believe we should in all things, always obey the law of the land, even if its highly despotic? For if the law says, “Get on your knees, renounce your God and worship Satan this instant, will you comply? Of course not, thus the law of the land has “limitations.”

For I also do not advocate for us to become a proactive thorn in our officials side to promote chronic hostilities and revelry, but would contend only that we have an “ethical” obligation to follow Christ's example to “stand up” and declare “injustice to be unjust.” For God in His immaculate creation gave us the “clear” lines of justice from creation, that all aggress is to be condemned, no matter who the despotic agent is that brings it.

Siloam, do you believe there are “limitations” to Christian obedience regarding the laws of the land? If so on what scriptural grounds do those “limitations” exist?

Whenever at all possible, we need to work towards our (His) goals within the social and legal structure in which we find ourselves. This does not mean that Christians need to allow the world to dictate our beliefs or our actions in His behalf, but we must be sure we are not being stubborn and requiring the society in which we live to submit to us.

I could not agree more Siloam

We are also not wrong to expect that society to follow its own laws when dealing with us. Paul did not refrain from appealing to his citizenship in dealing with Roman Tribune.

Acts 22:24-28 (NASB)
24 the commander ordered him to be brought into the barracks, stating that he should be examined by scourging so that he might find out the reason why they were shouting against him that way. 25 But when they stretched him out with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, "Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman and uncondemned?" 26 When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and told him, saying, "What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman." 27 The commander came and said to him, "Tell me, are you a Roman?" And he said, "Yes." 28 The commander answered, "I acquired this citizenship with a large sum of money." And Paul said, "But I was actually born a citizen."

To your wisdom, I could not agree more
 
I would like to present two scenarios. The First is obedience to authority within a society with review and redress available to common citizens as in most societies stemming from Europe. The second is obedience to authority in a repressive society that actively outlaws and otherwise oppresses Christianity.

In the first case, all avenues should be explored to advance the Lord’s work, but let God do battle. Just as he hardened Pharaoh’s heart in the time of Moses, He can guide circumstances to achieve His ends, which we may not clearly see. In our society, we can petition, campaign, request judicial review, and vote. Also, in our society, the concept of civil disobedience is not _necessarily_ a defying of authority but an integral part of public discourse in the tradition of Henry David Thoreau, who for our readers not familiar with U.S. History, went to jail rather than submit to laws he felt were unjust. If we take that route, we should take care to keep a civil countenance and also be ready to suffer the social consequences. We should also understand that it is God’s battle, not ours. We are foot soldiers, not commanders. We should not look to have society bow to us and our concerns; rather it is up to us to find ways of advancing His kingdom.


I much am less conversant about totalitarian societies and persecutions, but I would think that most activities would and should become clandestine. I recognize that God may choose someone to directly and publicly oppose such oppression, but I do not be God would be well served by such defiance by the believers resulting in fewer believers to spread His word. Here, I am less satisfied with my understanding. I have considered it less fully because my daily life is not in that milieu.
 
Is it possible that your wise statement here is the “only” reason for mandated human-law to exist? To protect the innocent from despotism by reacting to despotism?
I presume that I could agree with this.
Would you agree that the Mosaic covenant was “compulsory” by contract, and that the “law-construct” rested on top of the delegation of Natural Rights as a consensual contract? Meaning the Israelites “was offered the contract,” “they chose to obey the contract” and they “ratified the contract” which then caused them to “denounce” their Natural Rights before God, yet not before other men outside the nation. Today we are in the same predicament regarding our contract of salvation; for we “give up all things to Him” and become a “slave to Christ,” yet we are not slaves to the world.

Thus Natural Rights is still in effect to the world, but we have a contract of extreme obedience to do “all” things we are commanded unto our commitment to Christ Jesus.
I am afraid that this question is too complicated for me :)
If we as the church are now in our current society vested in “unjust law,” yet also discover that unjust law is backed with violence falling to failure, and we also choose to abolish unjust law, then “how” would the church invest going forward in a “free society” to help the helpless?

I would contend that we would purchase property with intent to “solve” the problems of the homeless and the helpless, and there would be no “violent precedent” to obstruct it.
I consider good prevention as the most needed tool in society. If society practices non-functional ways of social live, we should try to solve the very causes. E.g. we see poor and helpless people. We can give them food but it does not solve their helplessness. If we give them lessons, education, vocational course etc., they can find a job and become self-sufficient. If it is clear that lack of education is the main cause of the helplessness in society, we should support such laws and changes that will create well- educated and literate society. We could go also deeper in search of possible causes and try to solve them.
However may I explore the “application” of virtue ethics? For Aristotle offered the Golden Mean and Virtue ethics as an “application” for the “moral agent” and not for society at large.

If we apply for example "courage, truthfulness, and patience" to society using the law, then the law would become violent" to force these "golden mean compatible traits" upon society.

Natural Rights Theory is a “deontological” ethical substrate applicable to society, meaning that its a substrate holding in place a duty-bound “code” for what is “right or wrong.” Natural Rights Theory is a “duty-bound” rigid substrate that says “all aggress/ violence is not permitted” and “non-violence is not addressed, which is the delegation for the whole world. Yet our contract of salvation is far more complex, and deontologically we have a myriad of positive mandates and commissions to obey.

Thus if we use “virtue ethics” which is “judgment-based” reason for compromise, then it may or may not “trespass against Natural Rights from scripture.
I prefer common sense than observance of one specific ethical code. In this case I would choose golden mean but in another I may support radical and “unjust” solution.
 
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Like any good and thorough Biblical scholar, must you require a source? Its to your credit that you do. I will construct the source and theory for Natural Rights next.
Right, you can "say" it's from the scriptures and even use the verse to back it up, but that's not the issue: the issue is the definition and who definds it.

Definition: Rights that people supposedly have under natural law. The Declaration of Independence of the United States lists life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as natural rights.

But who says? Webster? Society? If we don't have the same definition then how can one discuss. This is why I don't like to use vernacular outside of the scriptures. It's bad enough when people know what the "trinity" is or the "rapture" is, which are not in the scriptures by name, and still don't agree. That's all I'm saying.
 
Thank you dUmPsTeR kindly for you contribution

If God truly owns a thing and then says, "I give this thing to you to own," then do you own it?

More accurately according to Natural Rights Theory from scripture; If God truly owns a thing, and says, "I give this "Natural thing" to you to own for a "natural season," which is the span of your "Natural Life," then do you own it for your Natural Life.

For the gift of the earth "to mankind" is a "contract of temporary ownership" from God, and God "honors" His contracts with mankind. However there are some "rules" to the contract, which are, you may not kill, harm or steal. Thus had "just-grounds" to wipe out Adams descendants, save Noah and his family.

However God being the "contract delegation" administrator never put in a clause that said, "He cannot intervene." Thus Him being the "Highest Authority" may do as He sees fit; yet to wisdom we can know by His word that He he does not contradict His own word, or fail to honor it.

Ownership is simply "authority" over a thing; legitimate or just-authority is authority over "honest-property."

Someone can claim to own something, but ultimately IMO God created everything, and He owns it. He lets us use it and we were commanded to have dominion over the earth.

Now man has adulterated this by fabricating laws, treatise, statutes, contracts, etc. for the love of greed and control of the masses. A great deal of that also distracts from God and man uses it make himself god. Example: in America the Constitution says, 'We the People', but there is a trick there. The 'P' capitalized in people, according to proper grammar, designates that that document only applies to those that signed it and possibly congress, and residents of the District of Columbia.

That is just a small clue as to the trickery and deception that abounds. Those largely to blame for this is attorneys. Even the word, attorney/s has deceitful meaning.

I'm going to stop there before I get into a rant.
 
Do you believe that man-made law can reflect “Natural Law” from scripture.



I agree, if the church signs a contract that says, “I am subservient to the compulsory State to “legally” fulfill all things in this contract, then the contract holds the church accountable to “honor and fulfill any/all “just or unjust” mandates in the contract. Thus a church must read the fine print, and they must “realize who they are contracting with, which again forces the church to consider “ethics.”

If the contract puts the church in an indebted position, then scripture admonishes the church regarding debt. Also again if the contract violates Natural Law, or the contract of salvation, then the church engages in a sinful contract with the compulsory State.

Yet what of violence to contract? What if the law says you “must” contract with the compulsory State or not have a church? What is right then?



Is it possible that a “license” is a “permission slip from authority to perform an action or own property?” We must ask, when does “authority to give permission become legitimate.”

Thus if a government said, “You must have a “license” to preach the gospel publicly, then by what authority does the government “issue the permission.” For surely it isn't God's authority; for Christ already commissioned us to go forth two thousand years ago, thus by what authority is left to obstruct what God has already ordained to action?

We could of course find every rigid opportunity to disobey government but I would contend that we miss our greatest mandate from scripture which is to love, and that would include those in authority over us. Thus for me personally, I do not seek to protest every license, or law, but instead communicate the "morality" or "ethics" of the precedent of the law, so that we might avoid unjust law and compulsory licenses coming from illegitimate authority in the future; for our political participation unto ethics is a natural defense for our posterity. For we do have in place a defaulted premise to honor the apparatus of the law, even when its perverted, yet we are also given grounds to reject despotism as the Spirit leads.



Yet you mention that you would “do these things.” which are good, and wholesome which move to restoration, yet what if the church and the businesses wont or is also unable to budge in Smith-Town?

Analogously you are a Christian citizen in Smith-Town and are faced with a decision to “support” or “reject” the city-council's lawful intervention or inaction one way or the other? How would you support, reject, abstain or admonish regarding the city-council's intervention or inaction either way? Will you “involve” yourself politically on any level, whether by engaging kind communication to your friends, your church or the public; will you vote, protest, or admonish the City? Will you remain silent and benign to only pray?

For we could always admonish the businesses or the church in play, yet that avoids societal ethics. I propose, “what is good in the confines of the law according to Natural Rights Theory from scripture?”

Yes, man-made law can mimic Gods' law and IMO how man-made law has a beginning, but then man-made law diverts into evil.

A lot of it has to do with trickery and deception by turning words into terms and fabricating definitions within the law to suit those that would bring about tyranny on the masses. Here is an example: in America under the premise of freeing the slaves, law makers fabricated amendments to the constitution. The slaves were freed from private ownership, but by using one word, 'citizen', it did away with the masses being sovereign people and enslaved everyone.

Contracts: no one or a church should have to contract. When anyone or a church is told they have to do it, that is coercion and constitutes fraud. Again, trickery and deception. Ever notice how a contract will say, 'you agree to these TERMS?', that's a clue that should set off an alarm to watch out.

Violence to contract, or not have a church? The church, or a better word might be congregation, are a body of believers and they should be allowed to freely assemble. Now take note, there is an illusion that abounds in America, that we are given rights by a piece of paper(constitution), but it only applies to congress and the residents of D.C.. How can we know this is true? Just look at what is going on with churches and Christians in America. Those fabricated fictional rights are being violated.

Government has no authority, but it uses intimidation to reign in tyranny. It is actually a corporation posing as a government, but through coercion the masses bow down through acquiescence and ignorant consent. A big part of how they get away with this is through main stream mis-leadia and control of the public fool system.

Those that win the wars, write the history.

Licenses = great fiction, literally, not a jab at you GF. Licenses were brought about for control/power and as a way to get mammon from the masses. It only works if people acquiesce.

I posted this in another thread, but it applies here too. Ex 20: 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

God doesn't want man to be lorded over by other men to the point of bondage.

As for myself, I would not engage the city counsel. It is like a court. Man-made court as we know it in America is likened to witch-craft. Again, using language as trickery. Just the word, 'summons', as to be summonsed to court is like summonsing evil.

I know many will object to what I have posted here, but I have been doing a great deal of searching for truth as to what is going on. I've been reading definitions in law dictionaries, constitutions, statutes, court cases, treatise, minutes from congress, etc. etc.

As to my decision about feeding the people at a local park - I myself at one time needed food from others because I was homeless. I looked forward to Saturday because a church would have a service in the park and they would feed and help clothe people. If said 'Smith-town' church did so, I believe they wouldn't be with-out help to do so. I myself after being able to support myself have helped in such efforts. I, in no way, mention this to bring any attention towards me. It's not about me.

Phew! Okay, I'm done for now. Thanks for your time and attention. No laughing. (just kidding about the no laughing part ;)
 
Someone can claim to own something, but ultimately IMO God created everything, and He owns it. He lets us use it and we were commanded to have dominion over the earth.

Now man has adulterated this by fabricating laws, treatise, statutes, contracts, etc. for the love of greed and control of the masses. A great deal of that also distracts from God and man uses it make himself god. Example: in America the Constitution says, 'We the People', but there is a trick there. The 'P' capitalized in people, according to proper grammar, designates that that document only applies to those that signed it and possibly congress, and residents of the District of Columbia.

That is just a small clue as to the trickery and deception that abounds. Those largely to blame for this is attorneys. Even the word, attorney/s has deceitful meaning.

I'm going to stop there before I get into a rant.


Hmm...


Not sure I entirely agree with this well known protest song but I do wonder about greed and about whether this world could originally have been a common treasury for all.
 
Therefore if society at large in Smith-Town are “only Christians in part” then which substrate should be forced upon society by the City ethically? For if the city council “makes a law” that is by “Christian ethics” then they must enforce all “Christian ethics.” Thus, if all Christian ethics are to be enforced, then should the City council according to scripture make a law for the whole city to be baptized and saved also using force? For repentance and baptism is also ethical for Christianity?

Do you think that the city council should be bound to create law upon the substrate of Natural Rights Theory or the Christian contract of salvation, since salvation is voluntary and Natural Rights is mandatory according to scripture?”
This reminds me of what I have learned about the Protestant Reformation in Germany, in which city councils or princes of localities would be persuaded to the Lutheran cause. They would then institute laws which would include which denomination would be practiced. The upheaval it caused was severe, for one town may be Catholic, the next Lutheran, the next even Calvinist or Anabaptist.

In the case of Smith-town, if the lawmakers were to follow ethics in scripture, any laws passed would have to treat Christians and non-Christians with equal ethicallity from the scriptures. So as to which substrate they should use, Natural Rights vs. Christian Contract, I believe Natural Rights would be the proper course, since Smith-town has non-Christians as citizens as well as Christian.
Since Natural Law was from the beginning, it applies to all people. The Christian Contract only applies to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.
Now you could make a case for the Christian Contract to be imposed if all of the citizenry were Christian believers.
I believe this was the case in many places in Europe during the Middle Ages.

Now we have to remember that if the council of the city is using scriptural ethics to effect change through imposition of law, then the council, too, is beholden to the Christian ethic of love. So forcing the church to move their soup kitchen, or moving the businesses for that matter, would need to include cost offsetting measures so as to not burden the move. So in a way, the businesses would be helping, through taxes, to move those services to another location, which would be, IMO, following Christian and Natural Law ethics.
 
I get a little impatient about unnecessarily stilted language. In my career I attended many briefings where experts used terms of art to say simple things in complicated ways. I guess they thought they could impress the decision makers, who may or may not have a grasp of the details behind the language used. My opinion is that this almost always hid the important points rather than made them clear (or should I say obfuscated rather than elucidated). This was true even when the audience did have a grasp of the technical issues.

This discussion is about authority, and who can enforce their views on others.

The rule of love is God’s law. So are the laws of thermodynamics. The difference is how we receive the law and the clarity of our view. Natural law is God’s law.

All authority stems from God. This was misused in the past to say that Kings ruled by the will of God. As faulty as that is, to say that God would sanction or lead a Christian to simply go where he felt God was leading is worse. It sounds lofty and so righteous, but it also makes our daily walk depend upon our feelings. Feelings can be great motivators, but they are poor navigators, and even worse at determining goals.

If we, as Christians, believe we are impelled to oppose the social and legal system I which we find ourselves, we must be very careful. It is not that the laws we would oppose are fundamentally good, it is just that our value to Him as witnesses is hurt if we are seen as stubborn and unwilling to work within the existing system. We must use the existing system to its fullest to achieve our goals, if indeed we are sure that they reflect the Lord's will.

Look at the life of Jesus. Look at the life of Paul. The social and legal system at that time and place were much less ‘fair’ than most western societies of today. Neither Jesus nor Paul spent much time preaching or teaching followers to defy the law. Jesus only railed against those who would lead God’s people away from a personal relationship with God. Paul only wrote against Christians who were not living according to God's will. Neither of them directly opposed either Roman rule, or the Jewish leadership.

It is by changing the life of the people within a society that real progress in that society is changed.
 
If you will excuse me a little...

Ethics schmethics.

Wrapping the thrust of this up and calling it a discussion in ethics is a false premise.

Ethics concerns the choices we make as individuals and collections of individuals. Because ethics concerns the choices of individuals while laws concern the interaction of people or other legally recognized entities, in all but the most extreme cases, ethics is about the choices we make within the law. Before you can apply ethical consideration, you must first determine your recourses within the legal structure. You cannot decide what you choose to do whether ethically or otherwise and have expectation that the legal system must bend to allow it. To state that ethics require the ignoring of ordinances is ontologically unsupportable, as well as elevating our own desires above the Lord’s Instructions.

Both the example of our Lord, and His clear instructions as set in His word compel us to work within the legal structure. Ethics do not override His guidance. We can talk about what to do in a completely immoral society, but I would term western society amoral, while many within it live immorally.

A few years ago, the pastor at a church I was attending complained about the intrusive code inspection that had issues with a stove the church had installed in the kitchen. I looked at it and knew from first site that it was a safety problem with inadequate ventilation and poor fire shielding. I am not an expert, but even I could see that a fire in the stove (not all that uncommon, particularly since a church kitchen may be used by many in the congregation) could quickly start the ceiling joists and from there the rest of the building. It may be inconvenient to comply with local laws, but just standing on separation of church & state was not the proper way to proceed.

In the case of Smithville, the church needs to work with the community. This may require that some of the things the congregation wishes to accomplish are not fully realized, but be assured (by scripture, not by me); God’s Will will not be thwarted. Our work is His work only when we are in accordance with His plan.
 
Neither Jesus nor Paul spent much time preaching or teaching followers to defy the law.
I guess it depends what you mean by "much time". Off the top of my head we have Jesus defying and redefining the Sabbath laws, not washing hands as the Pharisees did, not fasting, eating grain out of the field on the Sabbath, keeping company with the "wrong" crowd, blasphemy, insinuating God was his actual father, and claiming the power to forgive sin. We also have Matthew chapter 23 in which Jesus berates the Pharisees, and also in Luke 11, and the moneychangers tables He updumped.
Paul was lowered out the window in a basket to escape, defy, the authorities. He also debated and argued, claimed Roman citizenship, directly against authority to sway the people and to live to fight another day. That is just without looking anything up.
I agree that we need to work within the system we have been given, but when, like Daniel, David, Esther, and others, man's law violates God's law or directives, action should be taken.
 
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Yea Jesus said woe to the pharisees and scribes and lawyers.
he HATED lawyers esp cos they could twist anything and make it into a new law to add to the ones he already gave and put burdens on everyone.
They were hypocrites who thought just cos they policed the law, they were above the law.

The law is in our hearts and we are guided by what the spirit says to us, so in a situation such as this one, those church people would just do whats in their hearts to do and if it conflicts with council ordinances just say they are serving the Lord ...God triumphs and is the one who we follow not anyone else. Cos we are accountable to Him alone. Even if we may be persecuted and thrown in jail, that is the price we pay because we have faith in him not the man made laws.

In china many people get thrown in jail for simply worshipping in their homes. Only govt sanctioned churches are allowed and the govt dictates what these churches are allowed to preach.
That is why the churches go underground. The gates of hell cannot prevail against Jesus church. We can practise kindness anywhere, there is no law against kindness.
 
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