Eternal Security

[MichaelH]

Great post!!

I can't agree with foreknowledge though. It would have to be Hard line Calvinism. Through foreknowledge would by default come election.

The Arminian demands that in order for God to be “just,” He must provide everyone an equal opportunity to “accept Him.” In other words, God must be “fair,

If you examine their doctrine more carefully, they don't even believe that because they say God has perfect foreknowledge. They add this to the Doctrine to keep the Sovereignty of God in tact.

So man is given a free will to choose, but God already has the foreknowledge to know what choice that would be.

Their argument falls flat.

I can have foreknowledge that I will run out of Gas before getting to work if I don't stop and get gas. Now I can just drive straight to work without stopping and run out of Gas. Then I can say see!! See!!! I told you I had foreknowledge.

In effect this is what they say how God operates but God would have stopped to get gas and made it to work on time.

So then.......................

It would have to be Calvinism to even make sense. Else God has limited foreknowledge and no power to change what he does know.

If God planned and caused........... then it's no longer foreknowledge, but election.

The bible does not speak but God having knowledge of all things. In other words, God knows more about cars than we do. The bible never speaks of God knowing future but what He had written in the Word. If God declares it, it happens.

The scripture in ISA is often misquoted in my church.

God knows the end from the beginning.

NO, it says God declared the end from the beginning. God also knows the heart for who can hid motive from him?

So then, I would have to submit to you that Calvinism only makes sense. God knows because God declares. To give God fortune teller abilities is not found anywhere in scripture. What is found is God saying something and it happens.

However.............. We have not talked about something called faith.

one thing I must ask. Did the Lord tell you that you would get the promotion or were you just hoping for it. Lots of things I have had to go back and ask myself........ What did God say to me about this?

God's will is found before the outcome, not after the outcome.

Blessings and thank you for the input.

 

[MichaelH]

Salvation is not works based.. In all the examples you quoted, they deserved something. Grace is unmerited favor.. Something we don't deserve and we don't earn

You forgot the Word faith mentioned 231 times in the KJV. The grace is already there as Jesus said I judge no man, and whosoever believe on me.

Grace is not unmerited Favor. Grace has always been used to be empowered to do what God said do. If you like I can take you through all the scriptures. Grace are for those that Walk by faith, and will do the will of the Father.

Faith, activates Grace for all that will believe. Any other grace is something we have to do in obedience. Once again I can give you all the scriptures if you don't have them.

unmerited favor is not scriptural.

 

[Major]

Well, I think we both pretty much know why I did not get my promotion and the others did not. Had I done right everyday before my Father and worked unto him I know by his comment that I would have gotten it. I can't argue with that fairness, I just did not get it until corrected.

As for Calvinism.............. That would be hard to pin point. I see concepts of it even in churches that don't claim they believe. One doctrine I am against is that God knows ahead of time what will happen to us. That would be the Molinism and Arminianism.

God is like someone that just blindly drops spirits into bodies with no plan or forethought then it suddenly occurs to God what will happen.

The two doctrines don't make sense, because when did God receive the foreknowledge? If it was before the womb and God knowing that person would go to hell, then it's no longer foreknowledge. This is why Calvinism makes more sense to me unless God is just some fortune teller. I still do not buy into full Calvinism. We were created for HIS Workmanship that is election, placed in the Body of Christ by his will........ That is election.

However, it may not seem God is fair, but then I have to ask How that would be. We can just say who will accuse the creator and what right do they have to accuse for he makes people the way he decides. However, that does not remove the human emotion of God being fair or not.

one persons child dies early, the Other child next door lived. Is God fair?

Or did God actually have anything to do with it?

I was serving God to the best of my knowledge at the time. I was teaching men in the homeless shelter, I held a job and was a witness to those that would hear.

Was it fair to me my son just contracted T-cell a rare form of cancer suddenly? From the first day I got the diagnoses to day 8, there was nothing to be done. It was that quick and sudden.

Is that fair?

Was it fair I was in Prison and trying to get Jesus across to people yet some that where skinheads and into a occult after warning me about speaking about Jesus decided to put bleach and window cleaner in my coffee which I took a big gulp.

I was just trying to teach on Jesus hoping some would hear.

Is that fair?

One thing about God being fair............... is if we don't mix Faith into the equation then it would appear that God may not be fair. We add Faith into the mix, we find God is not only fair, but faithful.

You have my condolences and sympathy and prayers my brother on your loss. Any ones death diminishes all of us especially babies.
My heart goes out to you and your family.

But we must look at things in life dispassionately or we will allow or feelings to create a doctrine instead of our faith in Bible facts.
I can promise you that at my age I have lost as many loved ones or more than you have. The question then must be..........................
Was it fair that the apostles were hunted down and killed for exactly what you were doing?
Was it fair that an old man named Antipass was burned alive in a pot in Rome for doing what you were doing.
Was it fair that Paul was jailed and beaten for doing what you were doing?

I am not trying to confront you or challenge you in anyway so do not think that but I do not believe that fairness has anything whatsoever to do with this. But that is just me. You are 100% correct in that.....
"We add Faith into the mix, we find God is not only fair, but faithful".

The Scriptures and the Lord Jesus Himself told us that believers would be persecuted for our faith.

 

[Major]

You forgot the Word faith mentioned 231 times in the KJV. The grace is already there as Jesus said I judge no man, and whosoever believe on me.

Grace is not unmerited Favor. Grace has always been used to be empowered to do what God said do. If you like I can take you through all the scriptures. Grace are for those that Walk by faith, and will do the will of the Father.

Faith, activates Grace for all that will believe. Any other grace is something we have to do in obedience. Once again I can give you all the scriptures if you don't have them.

unmerited favor is not scriptural.

God love my friend but I can not accept your thought that........."Unmerited favor is not Scriptural".

Unmerited favor IS ALL GRACE!

Eph. 2:8
"For by GRACE are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves".

Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor. It can come to us in no other way.

Ephesians 3:20............
God "is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us."

Grace, charis (Strong's #5485), is a basic Christian concept.
"In the New Testament, 'grace' is a word of central importance - the keyword, in fact, of Christianity. Grace is what the New Testament is all about. Its God is 'the God of all grace' (1 Pet. 5:10); its Holy Spirit is 'the Spirit of grace' (Heb 10:29); and all the hopes that it sets forth rest upon 'the grace of the Lord Jesus' (Acts 15:11).....

 

[Major]

I know a little of these belief systems but I'm certainly no expert. I know William Lane Craig subscribes to Molinism and that it has to do with God knowing what people would choose given alternate realities or outcomes or something like that. I don't subscribe to this - mostly because I don't believe in alternate realities, not because I don't believe that God couldn't know a person's choice given a set of circumstances. Despite that, I really like William Lane Craig otherwise for his work in apologetics.

Most Christians are Arminians and don’t even know it. I don't subscribe to Arminianism mainly because the Arminian believes that people choose God out of the "free will" that God supposedly grants them. I don't find this to be scriptural because I find that the Bible teaches that man is totally depraved and cannot come to the knowledge of Christ without the supernatural intervention of the Holy Spirit. In other words, I believe very strongly that God chooses us, i.e. election, and then acts to regenerate us which allows us to actually recognize our sin, repent, and believe.

This is where Arminians cry “foul” citing some sort of “fairness” doctrine. Calvinists believe that not all are elect, not all are called. And because you must be predestined, elected, called, and regenerated prior to recognizing your sin, repenting, and believing on Christ, the Arminian cries, “that’s not fair!” The Arminian demands that in order for God to be “just,” He must provide everyone an equal opportunity to “accept Him.” In other words, God must be “fair,” which, in my opinion, is the biggest stumbling block to people recognizing the full truth of God’s grace. Indeed, God is and must be just. However, I don’t find that in order for God to be just He must also be fair.

In fact, God is not fair – at least as we understand the sense of the word - and I personally don't see a problem with that. Not everyone is given “equal opportunity.” God chooses some, and He doesn’t choose others. It’s not because some are more righteous than others. It’s not because God looks into the future and “discovers” which people will choose Him and then retroactively elects them. We don’t know why God chooses who He does other than the fact that the Bible tells us God loves the ones He chooses. Why does he love some and not others? The Bible doesn’t tell us. And Arminians don’t like it because, after all, they believe “everything must be fair.”



Well, I do believe in God’s foreknowledge. For whom God foreknew, he also predestined. “Foreknowledge" and “Predestination” are Bible words. I can’t explain foreknowledge, but I affirm it because the Bible teaches it.



No, it’s not fair, and yes, God had everything to do with it. God wrote every day of your life when as yet there were none. He wrote in cancer. He wrote in being passed over for promotion. He wrote in prison. He wrote in your greatest accomplishments and greatest failures. God is sovereign and in total control of every speck of dust in the universe. Everything is proceeding perfectly according to God’s sovereign plan. God foreknew you, he elected you, predestined you to be conformed to the image of His Son. At some point during your life He called you, He regenerated your heart and made you spiritually alive so you could recognize your sin, repent, and believe. He is 100% responsible for everything that happens, including your own salvation. You did not choose him. He chose you. Is that fair? Not if you're an unbeliever it's not! Yet this is what the Bible teaches.

Is it completely horrific that a child dies? Absolutely. Is it fair? No! It sucks! But fairness is irrelevant. God promises us that all things work out for good for those called according to His purpose. We don’t know the second and third order effects of this child’s death. God may use this as the catalyst that brings someone to a knowledge of Christ. How can something so horrific work out for good? That’s up to the imagination of God… and He is exceedingly good at it.



Actually, I would submit to you that the reason you did not get the promotion was because God ordained you not to get it. Again, your life was written in His book before you had logged any days on Earth. This promotion passover is part of His sovereign plan for your own sanctification. There is no regret of “well had I done it this way things would have been different.” There are no alternate realities. There is the Book of your life that God wrote before you were conceived. You are currently executing that book and right now the pages have you being disciplined and sanctified by His Holy Hand.

Last year I suffered an extreme disappointment myself. I am an Army officer, and my file had gone before a Department of the Army centralized selection board that selects future battalion commanders. Everyone was telling me that my file was strong and that they would be shocked if I wasn’t selected, blah, blah, blah and I believed the hype. When the list was finally published, I discovered that I did not make the Principal list. I was completely devastated. But I have to tell you, after about 30 seconds of recovering from the shock of the disappointment, I found great comfort in my knowledge of the sovereignty of God. There was no “had I only taken this other assignment” or “had I only performed better during that one rating period.” My only thoughts were, “clearly this isn’t what God wants me to be.” Ultimately, God makes selections on who will be battalion commanders and who won’t be. It has nothing to do with selection boards, bosses, flirty brown-nosing women, or any of that. All these things are just tools and conditions that God uses to execute His sovereign Will.



God is indeed faithful. We definitely agree on that.

Excellent thoughts. I as well have been there my friend.

Daniel 2:21
"He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise
and knowledge to the discerning."

 

[Silk]

The world is not God. The examples used are of the world, overgrown with sin. The world is not fair. Lucifer claimed that Job was a favorite of God. Need I remind you what happened to him? And where did Job's trouble come from? Satan. Then, as today, we look at people who have wealth, beauty,health prominence as being favored of God - the lesson here is that is not so. Free Will and choosing evil is what caused the unfairness. Job had faith and that got him through.
And I agree with Major - God's Grace is always unmerited favor.
And I pray for your son MichaelH and I can see that your trials and tribulations have made you a good man. May blessings rain on you now.

 

[MichaelH]

You have my condolences and sympathy and prayers my brother on your loss. Any ones death diminishes all of us especially babies.
My heart goes out to you and your family.

But we must look at things in life dispassionately or we will allow or feelings to create a doctrine instead of our faith in Bible facts.
I can promise you that at my age I have lost as many loved ones or more than you have. The question then must be..........................
Was it fair that the apostles were hunted down and killed for exactly what you were doing?
Was it fair that an old man named Antipass was burned alive in a pot in Rome for doing what you were doing.
Was it fair that Paul was jailed and beaten for doing what you were doing?

I am not trying to confront you or challenge you in anyway so do not think that but I do not believe that fairness has anything whatsoever to do with this. But that is just me. You are 100% correct in that.....
"We add Faith into the mix, we find God is not only fair, but faithful".

The Scriptures and the Lord Jesus Himself told us that believers would be persecuted for our faith.

I am sorry Major I did not post another long page explaining things. Your words sum it up perfectly for what I believe and agreed on.

"We add Faith into the mix, we find God is not only fair, but faithful".

I use to say we have God's unmerited favor................. Not by our works, but just that unmerited favor of God.

Grace says I have something I did not earn.

No matter how many things we do for the Lord, it won't pay for healing our body, or anything else promised. It's paid for.

However, Grace must be activated.

Grace through Faith.

I do my best to avoid the teaching out there that we just do as we please and God's grace covers all of it. Grace is not earned but activated through obedience.

Grace enables you to do what you can not physically or financially do.
If your not a doer of the Word, your not activating Grace. God does not heal us so we don't hurt when we watch TV all day and ignore everything else. Healing would come to do what He asked you to do.

Persecution:
I have been persecuted for what I believe. In the US we don't see it so much so I would not call any thing persecution. In prison I did run into issues.

As I said, someone from the skin head group put bleach in my coffee with window cleaner I took a drink of.
(Hint, don't drink bleach!!! trust me on this)

I gulped without smelling, I was cooking burgers at the time in the prison kitchen.

It felt like someone just removed my lungs, I could not hardly get air out. I could not describe the pain it was like my body went right into shock or something.

I have a choice at this point though. This is why I said about throwing "Faith" into the mix.
Jesus said all things were possible to them that believe. What happens if you don't believe? You get the same results of someone that does?

Did the man that took heed to the Words of Jesus get the same results as the one that heard the same thing but ignored them and built his house on the sand? The same flood came to both houses with different results.

Bleach:
I just froze and the first thing that came to mind was........"If they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not harm them."
I wanted to speak that out but could not get enough air in to hardly do it. I managed and said, "Lord I thank you that you said if I drink any deadly thing, it will not harm me, thank you Lord. Also forgive those that did this."

No fear, no thought about dying, no thought about needing to get help. Slowing my breath started to come back, and the intense pain started to ease. I said thank you Lord again, that your word never fails.

It was about 1/2 hour aside from the strong bleach smell I had no pain. I smelled bleach the rest of the night till the next day.

The next day at work, all 7 of those men had been removed from the kitchen for various reasons. I never said a word to anyone, you don't tell in prison.

It was two months later sitting in the dinning room eating i saw one of the young blond head kids that use to hang out with them devil worshipers. He saw me and asked to sit down, I said sure.

He said they all were expecting me to die and it was just not bleach and window cleaner. He said he heard what I said and how I was fine as if nothing had happened. He said he got removed for fighting in his dorm and put in solitary that day. He then told me because of that he gave his life to Jesus all this in tears and asked me to forgive him.

All the Apostles went through bad things but we have to remember not one did not finish their plan for God and not one died early. God saved them over and over until the Work was done.

Paul said.......... Now it's time I offer myself up. It was his choice.

I did not finish about my son....... I did not mean to leave the wrong impression. If your interested you can read about it here.

http://www.forum.mikecarolhelmickministries.org/index.php/topic,12.0.html

I am not against eternal security. I have issues with full election doctrine.

blessings

 

[Major]

I am sorry Major I did not post another long page explaining things. Your words sum it up perfectly for what I believe and agreed on.


I use to say we have God's unmerited favor................. Not by our works, but just that unmerited favor of God.

Grace says I have something I did not earn.

No matter how many things we do for the Lord, it won't pay for healing our body, or anything else promised. It's paid for.

However, Grace must be activated.

Grace through Faith.

I do my best to avoid the teaching out there that we just do as we please and God's grace covers all of it. Grace is not earned but activated through obedience.

Grace enables you to do what you can not physically or financially do.
If your not a doer of the Word, your not activating Grace. God does not heal us so we don't hurt when we watch TV all day and ignore everything else. Healing would come to do what He asked you to do.

Persecution:
I have been persecuted for what I believe. In the US we don't see it so much so I would not call any thing persecution. In prison I did run into issues.

As I said, someone from the skin head group put bleach in my coffee with window cleaner I took a drink of.
(Hint, don't drink bleach!!! trust me on this)

I gulped without smelling, I was cooking burgers at the time in the prison kitchen.

It felt like someone just removed my lungs, I could not hardly get air out. I could not describe the pain it was like my body went right into shock or something.

I have a choice at this point though. This is why I said about throwing "Faith" into the mix.
Jesus said all things were possible to them that believe. What happens if you don't believe? You get the same results of someone that does?

Did the man that took heed to the Words of Jesus get the same results as the one that heard the same thing but ignored them and built his house on the sand? The same flood came to both houses with different results.

Bleach:
I just froze and the first thing that came to mind was........"If they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not harm them."
I wanted to speak that out but could not get enough air in to hardly do it. I managed and said, "Lord I thank you that you said if I drink any deadly thing, it will not harm me, thank you Lord. Also forgive those that did this."

No fear, no thought about dying, no thought about needing to get help. Slowing my breath started to come back, and the intense pain started to ease. I said thank you Lord again, that your word never fails.

It was about 1/2 hour aside from the strong bleach smell I had no pain. I smelled bleach the rest of the night till the next day.

The next day at work, all 7 of those men had been removed from the kitchen for various reasons. I never said a word to anyone, you don't tell in prison.

It was two months later sitting in the dinning room eating i saw one of the young blond head kids that use to hang out with them devil worshipers. He saw me and asked to sit down, I said sure.

He said they all were expecting me to die and it was just not bleach and window cleaner. He said he heard what I said and how I was fine as if nothing had happened. He said he got removed for fighting in his dorm and put in solitary that day. He then told me because of that he gave his life to Jesus all this in tears and asked me to forgive him.

All the Apostles went through bad things but we have to remember not one did not finish their plan for God and not one died early. God saved them over and over until the Work was done.

Paul said.......... Now it's time I offer myself up. It was his choice.

I did not finish about my son....... I did not mean to leave the wrong impression. If your interested you can read about it here.

http://www.forum.mikecarolhelmickministries.org/index.php/topic,12.0.html

I am not against eternal security. I have issues with full election doctrine.

blessings

Blessings to you my friend but I must say that grace is something that we do not earn because it is grouped within the boundaries of salvation. Salvation is a gift from God and we do nothing to earn it. If we did, it would no longer be grace neither would it be un-merited favor.

If we add anything to grace we insult God because no one deserves to be saved because we are all sinners. You see, God's love for us flows out of His character, not ours; it is not dependent on anything we have done or can do. The truth is....if we di nothing to seve God the rest of our lives after being saved, He will not love us any less.

After we come to Christ and are saved, God does not want us to add one thing to His grace. Yes, He wants obedience but the obedience has to be an overflow of a heart full of love, not legalism or things we did.

Then of course the age old argument is that we have a license to sin. NO! Abundance of grace leads us to an abundance of obedience.

The grace of God does not encourage sin. If it does then the act of being saved must be considered. Romans 6 tells us that not only are we saved from the penalty of sin but also from the power of sin in our lives. We do not have to sin.

 

[Major]

I am sorry Major I did not post another long page explaining things. Your words sum it up perfectly for what I believe and agreed on.


I use to say we have God's unmerited favor................. Not by our works, but just that unmerited favor of God.

Grace says I have something I did not earn.

No matter how many things we do for the Lord, it won't pay for healing our body, or anything else promised. It's paid for.

However, Grace must be activated.

Grace through Faith.

I do my best to avoid the teaching out there that we just do as we please and God's grace covers all of it. Grace is not earned but activated through obedience.

Grace enables you to do what you can not physically or financially do.
If your not a doer of the Word, your not activating Grace. God does not heal us so we don't hurt when we watch TV all day and ignore everything else. Healing would come to do what He asked you to do.

Persecution:
I have been persecuted for what I believe. In the US we don't see it so much so I would not call any thing persecution. In prison I did run into issues.

As I said, someone from the skin head group put bleach in my coffee with window cleaner I took a drink of.
(Hint, don't drink bleach!!! trust me on this)

I gulped without smelling, I was cooking burgers at the time in the prison kitchen.

It felt like someone just removed my lungs, I could not hardly get air out. I could not describe the pain it was like my body went right into shock or something.

I have a choice at this point though. This is why I said about throwing "Faith" into the mix.
Jesus said all things were possible to them that believe. What happens if you don't believe? You get the same results of someone that does?

Did the man that took heed to the Words of Jesus get the same results as the one that heard the same thing but ignored them and built his house on the sand? The same flood came to both houses with different results.

Bleach:
I just froze and the first thing that came to mind was........"If they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not harm them."
I wanted to speak that out but could not get enough air in to hardly do it. I managed and said, "Lord I thank you that you said if I drink any deadly thing, it will not harm me, thank you Lord. Also forgive those that did this."

No fear, no thought about dying, no thought about needing to get help. Slowing my breath started to come back, and the intense pain started to ease. I said thank you Lord again, that your word never fails.

It was about 1/2 hour aside from the strong bleach smell I had no pain. I smelled bleach the rest of the night till the next day.

The next day at work, all 7 of those men had been removed from the kitchen for various reasons. I never said a word to anyone, you don't tell in prison.

It was two months later sitting in the dinning room eating i saw one of the young blond head kids that use to hang out with them devil worshipers. He saw me and asked to sit down, I said sure.

He said they all were expecting me to die and it was just not bleach and window cleaner. He said he heard what I said and how I was fine as if nothing had happened. He said he got removed for fighting in his dorm and put in solitary that day. He then told me because of that he gave his life to Jesus all this in tears and asked me to forgive him.

All the Apostles went through bad things but we have to remember not one did not finish their plan for God and not one died early. God saved them over and over until the Work was done.

Paul said.......... Now it's time I offer myself up. It was his choice.

I did not finish about my son....... I did not mean to leave the wrong impression. If your interested you can read about it here.

http://www.forum.mikecarolhelmickministries.org/index.php/topic,12.0.html

I am not against eternal security. I have issues with full election doctrine.

blessings

A lot of believers have problems with election and predestination, that is for sure. I would say that it is the hardest of all Biblical doctrines to grasp.

 

[MichaelH]

A lot of believers have problems with election and predestination, that is for sure. I would say that it is the hardest of all Biblical doctrines to grasp.

I have to ask though. Is it really a bible doctrine? Above we discussed I don't believe in foreknowledge. God said he knows our heart, would now more about anything we would. No scripture indicates God acts as a fortune teller. If it's foreknowledge then by default it becomes election anyway unless God just does not have a clue until the foreknowledge just dawns on him after he made the man. I am pretty convinced that we are fearfully and wonderfully made and each person made with a plan in mind. So it's no longer foreknowledge but election.

We are created for his workmanship. We are placed in the body of Christ and do our part as the part we were designed to be by God and his plan.

What happens if we don't do our part?

That is the question I have with election. I know this thread is about salvation, but faith comes by hearing the Word. I find it hard to believe the Word being life and Spirit does not have the ability to give faith to every man that would hear. If they would hear.

The scripture show clearly that God gives the Word and to those that obey get the promise. God operates according to mans response to him.

this is why I mentioned faith as part of the equation.

 

[Silk]

Free Will means you can choose. The world is not "programmed" and we are given every opportunity, again and again, to choose the best for ourselves. I loved your story of the bleach. When you first mentioned it, I thought "God was showing MichaelH, personal proof of his presence." The end of the story certainly confirms my theory - that when God lets a miracle happen with witnesses - it is for all to learn from. And one did.
Free will - there is no hook or catch - it is what it says. And it means we can change.

 

[Kurt75]

Okay.

One of two things must be true. Either (1) God is exhaustively sovereign, or (2) God is not exhaustively sovereign.

If one single molecule is outside of God's control - if there is one single renegade molecule anywhere in the universe - then God is not exhaustively sovereign.

When a person says "we have free will," that person just put all humans into the renegade molecule category, in which case God is not exhaustively sovereign. Instead, the men who have "free will" are the ones who are sovereign. In the "free will" case, MAN determines his destiny. MAN is sovereign, and God is powerless to affect it because "God gives us free will and doesn't force us to do anything." If man has free will, God cannot guarantee the outcome of anything. If God has limited himself to not affect the decisions of man, He cannot possibly guarantee any future prophecy to come to fruition. When MAN has free will, he does not cooperate with God.

I don't remember the full details of the story, but there was a race car crash some years ago that caused a bunch of cars to crash and several drivers to be killed. The accident investigation took a long time to sort out what happened, but they were able to trace back all the mechanical failures to a cotter pin that was missing from some nut. Is God sovereign over cotter pins? Or did MAN sovereignly fail (or choose not) to put it in its proper place resulting in changing the outcome of countless lives?

A prominent theologian once made this anecdote: For lack of a nail, the horse shoe fell off. For lack of a horse shoe, the horse broke its leg. For lack of a healthy horse, the Soldier did not deliver his message to the battlefield commander. For lack of the message, the battle was lost. For lack of a victory in that battle, the war was lost. Is God sovereign over nails? NAILS!

The fact is this: God is sovereign over every single minute detail in universal history. His foreknowledge is based on the fact that He has predestined the movement and actions of every speck of matter and every choice made by man.

Predestination is a Bible word. Deal with it.

Arminians don't like this because it makes it appear that God's hands are dirty. Too bad. God is sovereign and He does what He wants. God creates well-being and God creates calamity. God has declared the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done. He will accomplish all His purpose.

And you think God is going to allow pesky MAN to derail any of that with his "free will?"

God is powerful and God is sovereign. Every time someone says that man has free will, he strips God of these attributes.

 

[Silk]

Or 3) God's creation is still evolving, giving us enough room to bloom. In the Prodigal, the Father loves, equally, both the "disobedient" and obedient son. The Father's unmitigated joy, in his disobedient son's return should tell you that free will is a natural law that God, who invented it, can still feel joy, against all odds, when we return.

 

[MichaelH]

Okay.

One of two things must be true. Either (1) God is exhaustively sovereign, or (2) God is not exhaustively sovereign.

When MAN has free will, he does not cooperate with God.

I don't remember the full details of the story, but there was a race car crash some years ago that caused a bunch of cars to crash and several drivers to be killed. The accident investigation took a long time to sort out what happened, but they were able to trace back all the mechanical failures to a cotter pin that was missing from some nut. Is God sovereign over cotter pins? Or did MAN sovereignly fail (or choose not) to put it in its proper place resulting in changing the outcome of countless lives?

A prominent theologian once made this anecdote: For lack of a nail, the horse shoe fell off. For lack of a horse shoe, the horse broke its leg. For lack of a healthy horse, the Soldier did not deliver his message to the battlefield commander. For lack of the message, the battle was lost. For lack of a victory in that battle, the war was lost. Is God sovereign over nails? NAILS!

The fact is this: God is sovereign over every single minute detail in universal history. His foreknowledge is based on the fact that He has predestined the movement and actions of every speck of matter and every choice made by man.

Predestination is a Bible word. Deal with it.

And you think God is going to allow pesky MAN to derail any of that with his "free will?"
.

Hey Kurt. I have avoided scriptures and have just tried to talk. This Predestination is a bible Word deal with it sounds a bit prideful.

God is Sovereign is not a bible word, not found in scripture, and has no Hebrew or Greek Equal.
Just deal with that. It's something you made up because it's not scripture.

God declares the End from the Beginning.

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
(Isa 46:10-11)

What he has spoken comes to pass, He purposes it he will also do it. This does not say nobody has a choice. It says if God declares something it comes to pass. I think that is pretty much understood. Even Peter saying though we heard from on High, we have a more sure Word of Prophecy. What is personally told us and shown does not change the written Word or what God said things will be. The events of Revelation are going to happen, despite what man chooses.

HOWEVER:

At least 21 times in Deuteronomy along, God said i will choose. This covered a whole lot of places to be and things to do God had chosen.

one place, God is not choosing.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Who is suppose to choose here?

This is neither foreknowledge or election. Had it been election God would have never said choose. Had it been foreknowledge, it would have never been recorded for or against.

Well.............. man is not in control and bla, bla ,bla.

Then What has God declared about you?

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

So God sets a path for each, the unwise do not know what that is.

God is not sovereign as you say based on His picking and choosing. That is mans idea, but not at all backed by scripture.

And you think God is going to allow pesky MAN to derail any of that with his "free will?"

I will give you one example out of 20 I can think of.

God told Israel I am giving you the promise land. That was God's will, else he lied and we know he can't lie.

Why did Israel not enter the promise land? God's fault? Not hardly.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

There goes God's plan because of their unbelief. So God makes adjustments based on their choice. He keeps the kids and brings Joshua and Caleb into the Promise land.

I will spare the rest of the many, many scriptures that shred the idea of some predestination. I will also be glad to post all the predestination scriptures and the ones you have not thought of.

If we can keep things cool then we can continue to examine and talk but you don't want to go scripture to scripture with me on this.
Election is a very old doctrine by people who did not have computers or could very easy cross reference scriptures.
I am glad for the work they did, but in 1500's you were lucky to get a copy of the bible back then or a full copy.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Eph 1:4-5)

My suggestion is not to take that tone and not attempt to prove something you can't. To believe in predestination, you also have to ignore many scriptures which I will be happy to bring up.

Blessings.

 

[AllieWi]

Christianity is a very personal religion, between you, the individual and God. When I accepted Christ as the truth, I had no doubts. At the time, I recieved what I called the "good me" or as I later found was actually the Holy Spirit. I do not know how it works for someone who accepts Christ with doubts. But I was free to explore what others thought about the spiritual or God thing without worries. If I heard something that troubled me, I explored further, conferred with the good me and resolved it for myself. It is the only defense you have against misleaders. (whether intentional or unintentional.) I suppose, as we all have free will, there are many motives for turning away from the only one with the light, in this darkness. When I really know the truth, I don't know the rationale for turning to a lie. It is never in my best interest. And I won't guess at another's salvation status, if they totally turn from God. It's tempting to say the obvious but it is not for us, here and now, to know.

Very insightful, thank you

 

[Major]

I have to ask though. Is it really a bible doctrine? Above we discussed I don't believe in foreknowledge. God said he knows our heart, would now more about anything we would. No scripture indicates God acts as a fortune teller. If it's foreknowledge then by default it becomes election anyway unless God just does not have a clue until the foreknowledge just dawns on him after he made the man. I am pretty convinced that we are fearfully and wonderfully made and each person made with a plan in mind. So it's no longer foreknowledge but election.

We are created for his workmanship. We are placed in the body of Christ and do our part as the part we were designed to be by God and his plan.

What happens if we don't do our part?

That is the question I have with election. I know this thread is about salvation, but faith comes by hearing the Word. I find it hard to believe the Word being life and Spirit does not have the ability to give faith to every man that would hear. If they would hear.

The scripture show clearly that God gives the Word and to those that obey get the promise. God operates according to mans response to him.

this is why I mentioned faith as part of the equation.

Is "Predestination" a doctrine.

YES, IMHO it is. It is as I said one of the most difficult to grasp and understand and I say that because that is exactly how I felt.

Ephesians 1:5.....
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good measure of his will".

We may not understand it or believe or even like it.....but there it is right in front of us, that word PREDESTINATED.

Predestinated= "to mark off or choose before". That can only mean that God chooses those who He knows will participate in His plan of salvation and extends it to all who respond in faith.

The doctrine of predestination is Scripture relates to and refers to the foreknowledge of God.

Romans 8:29 says........
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

Galatians 4:5...............
"to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

The purpose of His predestination was that we should experience Sonship. This divine appointment is according to the kindness of God to accomplish the good pleasure of His will. It is all from Him and has nothing to do with us, and is rooted in love and manifested through grace.

Now let me ask you a reality question Mike. Would you really want a God who DID NOT KNOW what was going to happen in the future???

 

[Silk]

I think what we understand as "predestination" and the highly refined, complexity that God understands are two, too distant things. To use this to make salvation a "good ole boy's club" of the "predestined" favorites of God is to misunderstand the true meaning of what is on offer to every individual and diminishes the awesomeness of God's love.

 

[Major]

I think what we understand as "predestination" and the highly refined, complexity that God understands are two, too distant things. To use this to make salvation a "good ole boy's club" of the "predestined" favorites of God is to misunderstand the true meaning of what is on offer to every individual and diminishes the awesomeness of God's love.

Agreed Silk.

The call of God goes out to ALL of the world so that ALL may have the opportunity to choose Christ and be saved.

That however does not diminish from the fact that an Omnisent, all knowing God who created all things does not know today who will be saved tomorrow. Election did not begin in the New Test. The "Chosen" goes back a long way and does not refer to a "good ol boys club".

Remember that in the Old Testament, He chose a nation for Himself. Out of all the nations in the world, He selected Israel.
(Deut 7:6; 14:2) He chose them, not because they were better or more desirable than any other people, but simply because He decided to choose them.

In the New Testament, Jesus Christ is called Christ, “My Chosen One” (Luke 9:35).

The holy angels also are “chosen angels” (1 Tim. 5:21).

New Testament believers are those who were “chosen of God” (Col. 3:12; cf. 1 Cor. 1:27).

The disciples were chosen....When Jesus told His disciples, “You did not choose Me but I chose you” (John 15:16),

As John MacAuthur says and I quote from him..............
"Frankly, the only reason to believe in election is because it is found explicitly in God’s Word. No man and no committee of men originated this doctrine. It is like the doctrine of eternal punishment, in that it conflicts with the dictates of the carnal mind. It is repugnant to the sentiments of the unregenerate heart. And like the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the miraculous birth of our Savior, the truth of election, because it has been revealed by God, must be embraced with simple and unquestioning faith. If you have a Bible and you believe it, you have no other option but to accept what it teaches."

Well that pretty much says it all to me.

 

[Ravindran]

I think Bible gives man the choice or rather responsibility to choose.. The all famous John 3:16 - For whomsoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.. At the same time, Paul writes,

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Paul's response to the question is important.. Hearts were hardened not because the person did not accept Christ.. It was because God let it.. And who are we to ask back God? That is clear enough for me not to question why only some will be saved.. Lord will have mercy on whom He desires..

 

[Silk]

But God has "chosen" ALL of us, not just a few. I do not argue that God knows all - I say that we don't. We catch a glimpse, micro, once in awhile of the complexity of His design and that should put us on notice that there is so much more, because we are not God, that is beyond our comprehension, and will be until we meet our Maker. To say that because someone rejects his/her salvation that they were predestined to separation from God, is, IMO, a display that we understand nothing about God. He wants all of His children back and Christ is proof of that.