Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by David Ward Jr, Jun 13, 2011.

  1. Major, the writer you quoted gave examples of some saved men of God who truly repented of their doing. What about Saul? He was saved; then lost it!


    1. "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2:17). Adam surely died; he fell from God's grace or favor; and he lost the eternal life he possessed and could have kept forever, if he had not sinned (Rom. 5:12-21).

    2. Moses said, "If thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me I pray thee out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of my book." (Ex. 32:32-33; Deut. 9:7-29; 11:13-25).

    3. "Defile not yourselves in ANY OF THESE THINGS (that I cast out the nations for) ... ye shall not commit any of these abominations ... whosoever shall commit any of these things shall be cut off" (Lev. 18:24-30).

    4. "If ye shall not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments ... ye break my covenant: I also will do this to you ... ye shall perish" (Lev. 26:13-39). Many times God said Israel would perish if she sinned. (Deut. 8:19-20; 11:26-28; 15:4-6; 28:21-22; 30:15-20).

    5. "KEEP the commandments ... your eyes have seen what the Lord did BECAUSE of baal-peor ... God destroyed them from among you (24,000 once born again men were killed for adultery in one day - Num. 25:1-8) ... But ye that did cleave unto the Lord are alive every one of you this day" (Deut. 4:1-4).

    6. "TAKE HEED unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord ... God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God ... When thou shalt beget children ... remain long in the land, and corrupt yourselves ... do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger ... ye shall utterly perish ... be utterly destroyed" (Deut. 4:23-31).

    7. "WHEN God shall give you great and goodly cities, and houses full of good things ... WHEN thou shalt have eaten and be full; THEN beware lest thou forget the Lord ... Ye shall not go after other gods ... lest the anger of the Lord be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the earth. Ye shall not tempt the Lord ... do that which is right and good in the sight of the Lord: that it may be well with thee" (Deut. 6:10-19).

    8. "All the commandments ... shall ye observe and do, that ye may live" (Deut. 8:1-6).

    9. "IF thou do at all forget the Lord, walk after other gods, and serve them ... I testify against you this day that ye shall utterly perish; BECAUSE ye would not be obedient" (Deut. 8:19-20).

    10. "IF thou shalt ... do all his commandments ... all these blessings shall come upon you (21 different blessings, Deut. 29:1-14). But it shall come to pass IF thou wilt not ... observe to do all His commandments ... that all these curses (122 curses, Deut. 28:15-68) shall come upon thee ... till thou be destroyed; BECAUSE ye did not keep the commandments ... BECAUSE thou servedst not the Lord ... until thou be destroyed ... as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to naught; and ye shall BE PLUCKED from off the land (Deut. 28:1-68).

    11. God said that any man who turns his heart away from Him and says, "I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst (GO HEAD-LONG INTO SIN): the Lord will not spare him ... then the anger of the Lord and His jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the Lord shall blot out his name from under heaven" (Deut. 29:18-28).

    12. "The Lord said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this (born again) people will rise up, and go a whoring after others gods ... and will forsake me, and break my covenant ... THEN my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured" (Deut. 30:16-30).

    13. "Moses wrote this song: "They have corrupted themselves ... They sacrificed to devils, not to God ... Of the Rock that begat thee ... thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God ... WHEN the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, BECAUSE of the provoking of his sons and daughters ... They have moved me to jealousy ... provoked me to anger ... a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell ... I will heap mischiefs (calamities) upon them" (Deut. 32:1-44). According to this Scripture born again men who are sons and daughters of God can backslide, fall from grace, forget God, provoke Him to anger, and cause Him to abhor them and destroy them in the lowest hell.

    14. "The anger of the Lord was kindled against the children of Israel ... The Lord said, Israel hath sinned ... neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accused from among you" (Josh. 7:1, 10-12).

    15. "IF ye do in any wise go back ... THEN shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly" (Josh. 23:12-16).

    16. "IF ye forsake the Lord ... and serve other gods, THEN he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, AFTER that he hath done you good" (Josh. 24:2-20).

    17. "Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua ... (then) Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord and served Balaam: and forsook the Lord ... and followed other gods ... And the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel ... God sold them into the hands of their enemies ... WHEN the Lord raised up judges, THEN the Lord was with the judge BECAUSE of their groanings ... WHEN the judge was dead, they returned and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way. And the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel ... BECAUSE that this people transgressed my covenant, and have not hearkened unto my voice" (Judge 2:1-23; 3:1-4). This sinning and repenting went on for more than 450 years. During that time Israel experienced eight servitudes to other nations from 8 to 40 years each, while in a backslidden state; and between times they served God and were in His grace and favor.
    As in the period of the judges, Israel "did evil in the sight of the Lord" many times during the period of the kings, and God destroyed them (1 Kings 14:22; 15:26, 34; 16:7; 2 Kings 17:1-17; 2 Chron. 36). Furthermore, the prophets speak of Israel as being cut off, consumed, destroyed, and rejected of God because of sins; and so, eternal life can be lost thorough sin, and by sin only (Isa. 5:24-25; 28:7-8, 13-22; 63:10; 64:5-7; Jer. 2:5-37; 3:1-25; 4:1-31; 5:1-31; 6:1-30; 7:1-34;9:13-16; 12:14-1`7; 14:7-16; Jer. 15:1-7; 16:11-18; 17:4-13; 18:7-17; 19:4-7; 21:8-14; 22:9; 23:1-40; 25:4-9; 26:3-5; 29:19-23, 32; 32:26-36; 35:15-17; 26:7; Lam. 1:8-9; 2:7; 5:22; Ezek. 13:1-23; 14:6-11; 20:7-13; 22:28-31).

    18. "Let me alone that my wrath may wax hot against them and that I may CONSUME them" (Exod. 32:10, 12; 33:3, 5; Num. 16:21, 45; Deut. 7:16, 22; 11:1; 14:35; 16:26, 35; 32:13; Deut. 2:15-16; Josh. 5:6). God vowed that He would consume all who would forsake Him and live in sin (Isa. 1:28; 64:7; Jer. 5:3; 9:16; 14:15; Ezek. 5:12; 22:31). Paul said that we must "have grace to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:28-29). WHY "fear" if there is no fear of a consuming fire for those who serve Him and fall away?

    19. "Is it a light thing for Judah to commit these abominations ... to provoke me to anger ... I also will DEAL with them in fury; my eye will not spare, neither will I have pity" (Ezek. 8:17-18).

    20. "If ye forget my commandments ... then I will PLUCK them up by the roots" (2 Chron. 7:19-20); "if they will not obey, I will utterly PLUCK up and destroy" (Jer. 12:14-17; 18:7-17; 22:24-26; 31:28-30; 45:4; Ezek. 17:9). In the N.T. we learn that God will not pluck up the one who "HEARS the voice of Christ and FOLLOWS Him." See John 10:27-29.

    21. "When a righteous man [Jew or Gentile, under law or under grace] doth turn from righteousness, and commit iniquity ... HE SHALL DIE ... Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surly live ... When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity ... All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them SHALL HE DIE ... for his iniquity that he hath done SHALL HE DIE" (Ezek. 3:20, 21; 18:24-32).

    22. "The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; NEITHER SHALL THE RIGHTEOUS BE ABLE TO LIVE for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth ... HE SHALL DIE FOR IT ... When the righeous turneth FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and committeth iniquity, HE SHALL EVEN DIE THEREBY" (Ezek. 33:12-20). Suchsimple language does not need interpretation. These passages are God's own words and they prove a righteous man dies again when he sins and he will be lost if he dies in his sins.

    23. "WHOSOEVER THAT SINNED AGAINST ME, HIM WILL I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK" (Exod. 32:30-35). God said this and He means it. Again we read, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" (Psalms 69:28). This is a prophecy of Judas, as proved by a comparison of Acts 1:20 and Psalms 69:25-29. In Revelation we read, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" (Rev. 3:5). This passage teaches that if men who were in the book of life did NOT overcome, their names would blotted out.

    24. "Not every one that saith, Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21). If one ceases to do the will of God he loses eternal life and will not enter the kingdom of God unless he comes back to repentence and godliness again.

    25. "He that endureth to the end shall be saved" Matt. 10:22). It is possible not to endure to the end, or this Scripture is meaningless.

    26. "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matt. 24:12). When love waxes cold one has lost Christ and eternal life and will be spued out (Rev. 2:4-5; 3:15-16). One who has lost love has lost God, and if one has lost God he has lost grace as stated in 1 John 4:8, 12, 16, 21; Gal. 1:6-8; 5:4; Heb. 12:15.

    27. "When ye (disciples) stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any ... But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses" (Mark 11: 25-26; Matt. 18:21-35). Even this then, will cut off eternal life.

    28. "If any man defile the temple of God (the body), him shall God destroy" "Out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, deceit, lasciciousness, a evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolsihness. All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-28).

    29. "They hear, receive the word with joy ... which for a while believe, and in the time of temptation FALL AWAY" (Luke 8:13).

    30. "The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him ... and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers" (Luke 12:46; Rev. 21:8; 22:15).

    31. "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him" (John 6:66).

    32. "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31). If you do not continue, the opposite is true: you are not His disciple and do not have eternal life.

    33. "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not for ever (does not have eternal life): but the Son (who does not commit sin) abideth for ever (has eternal life). If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:34-36).

    34. "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" (John 8:31; 14:15, 21-24; 15:9-14). If one does not keep His saying, the result of course, will be death.

    35. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and the FOLLOW ME: And I give unto them (that follow me) eternal life; and they (that follow me) shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them (that follow me) out of my hands. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them (that follow me) out of my Father's hand" (John 10:27-29). This gives eternal security and eternal life to all who follow Christ, and nothing to them that do not follow Him and do not hear His voice, that is, obey it, and heed what He says. To claim the benefits promised means nothing if we do not literally and daily hear His voice and follow Him. Note that the passage simply states that no "man," that is, no other human can pluck a person out of the hand of God; BUT, if a person sins, God, Himself has the right anc can pluck and truly does pluck such a sinning person out of His own hand, for He is Holy and cannot tolerate sin, as we have seen in point 20, above.

    36. "Every branch IN ME [being in Christ makes one a new creature and a holy branch, 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 11:16] that beareth not fruit he taketh away [not WITHERED; and men gather them and CAST THEM INTO THE FIRE, and THEY ARE BURNED" (John 15:1, 2, 6). To teach from this passage that all men are "in Christ" is to teach that all men are "clean" for to the same men He said, "ye are the branches ... Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3, 5). The same ones that were "branches" and were "in Christ" also had Christ in them "John 15:4-7). This statement could never be made of sinners, for Paul said, "Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates" (2 Cor. 13:5) and "if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:9, 10).
    To teach, as ultra-graceists do, that "in me" means the universal sense of being in Christ and "taketh away" means taken to Heaven is to teach that all men are saved, that God is pruning all men, that all men are "clean" by the Word, that God is the "Father" and "husbandman" of all men, and that all men will be taken to Heaven. If these things are true then these teachers ought to quit worrying about the security of any one, for all are saved, and if all are saved and no saved man can be lost, then all have eternal life and will go to Heaven. If this is true, then we do not need churches or preachers and we should get rid of both.
    The more these men twist and deny Scripture to prove some unscriptural doctrine, the more they become inconsistent with themselves and the Bible. If John 15 does refer only to saved men, then it is certain that they can get out of Christ, be cut off and be burned, and if this does not mean the loss of the soul it means nothing. If the branches can be cut off, then it proves holy people can be cut off and be burned, for Rom. 11:16 says, "If the root be holy, SO ARE THE BRANCHES." If holy men can be lost through sin then saved men can be lost, and once saved, always saved is false.
    37. "If any man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6). This much is certain: the branches that wither and become fruitless were once in the vine, otherwise they would not be branches of the vine. The responsibility of staying in the vine (Christ), lies with the branches who can bear more or less fruit as they obey God and yield to Him to bring forth fruit. Thus, one can become out of Christ by his refusal to obey God and bring forth fruit.

    38. "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them (that thou hast given me, and that I have given eternal life to) is lost, but the son of perdition" (John 17:2, 12). Here Christ acknowledges that power had been given Him to give eternal life to every man whom God had given Him, and Judas is recognized among those who had been given Him; therefore, Judas as well as the others had been given eternal life. It just so happened that Judas was the only one among this particular group whom Christ did not keep, and who was lost. Judas, at one time, had an apostleship but lost it, and by transgression fell (Acts 1:20, 25). If he fell from the ministry and the apostleship by transgression, then it should be clear that he was a truly saved man before this transgression. This can be expounded on further if desired.

    39. "When THEY KNEW GOD, they glorified him not as God ... their foolish heart was darkened ... they became fools ... God gave them up to uncleanness ... God gave them up unto vile affections ... God gave them up to a reprobate mind ... Being filled with all unrighteousness ... they are worthy of death" (Rom. 1:21-32; 2:1-5).

    40. "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin UNTO DEATH, or of obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS.... the end of those things [committing sins] IS DEATH ... For the wages of sin IS DEATH" (Rom. 6:16-23).

    41. "Through their fall salvation is come to the Gentiles ... if the fall of them be the riches of the world ... how much more their fullness? ... For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ... because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear. For if God spared not the natural branches (elect Israel when they sinned), TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE, goodness; IF THOU CONTINUE in His goodness: otherwise thou also shall be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in AGAIN ... so all Israel shall be saved" AGAIN (Rom. 11:11-32).

    42. "All our fathers ... did eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ (proving they were born again, Deut. 32:15-19). But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. Neither let us tempt Christ as some of them ... and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples ... for our admonition ... Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:1-8). WHY THE "TAKE HEED" IF THERE IS NO CHANCE OF "LEST HE FALL"?

    43. "The gospel ... by which ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain" (1 Cor. 15:1-8).

    44. "I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor. 11:1-3; Col. 2:8-19).

    45. "I marvel that ye are so soon REMOVED FROM Him (Christ) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel" (Gal. 1:6-7).

    Dake, Finis (2011). God's Plan for Man. Dake Publishing, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
  2. 46. "If I build again the things which I destroyed (gave up for Christ), I make myself a transgressor," that is, I will revert back to the old life of sin and be lost again (Gal. 2:18).

    47. "I do not frustrate (set aside, render useless) the grace of God" for the law program; for, "then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal. 2:21).

    48. "My little children of whom I travail in birth AGAIN (as I did once before) until Christ be formed in you" (Gal. 4:19).

    49. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled AGAIN with the yoke of bondage" (Gal. 5:1).

    50. "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE" (Gal. 5:4). For a person to be "fallen from grace" by any means or for any cause, he would need to be in grace first, in order to fall from it.

    51. "If a man be overtaken in a fault (sin), ye which are spiritual, RESORE such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted" (Gal. 6:1) - and go back in sin.

    52. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1). Some argue that these words are interpolated and they try to prove there is no condition to meet in order to be free from condemnation. Suppose they are not in the original in this verse, nevertheless they are not interpolated in Rom. 8:4, thus proving the same condition of no condemnation in Christ Jesus as in Rom. 8:1. What benefit is such an argument, since Paul says in 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:10, 20 that any one living after the flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God? If one has to walk after the Spirit to be saved, as in Gal. 5:16-26, he has to do this to be free from condemnation. Paul continued in Rom. 8 by saying, "Therefore, brethren [saved men], we are debtors not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For IF ye live after the flesh YE SHALL DIE: but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, YE SHALL LIVE" (Rom. 8:12-13). Saved men then will die again spiritually and eternally if they go back into sin (Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 1:29-32).

    53. "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF BE A CASTAWAY" (1 Cor. 9:27). One writer says of this verse, "castaway means a cracked pot put on the shelf." So Paul says in effect, "I do not want to be a cracked pot!"

    We have often wondered what to call backsliders and now we know what to call them. We can call them cracked pots. However, the meaning of Paul goes beyond being a mere cracked pot laid aside. He says, "if ye live after the flesh YE SHALL DIE" and that ye "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." So, why argue that God will take such men to Heaven when God said He would not? (Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Ezek. 18:4, 24-26; 33:16-20; etc...).

    The Greek word adokimos, translated castaway in 1 Cor. 9:27, might have been lost to some men for centuries, but it has been in the Bible all this time. Its meaning is made very clear in the passages where it is used. It is used and translated "reprobate" in Rom. 1:28; 2 Cor. 13:5-7 (three times); 2 Tim. 3:8; Tit. 1:16 and "rejected" in Heb. 6:8. It can be seen by these passages that the word has a deeper meaning than merely being disapproved in the sense of losing a crown as one writer says, or being a cracked pot laid on the shelfas another one says.

    Paul, did not say that I am afraid that my works should be "castaway" but that "I myself be a castaway." Suppose we make mere cracked pots laid on the shelf of the people in these passages, or interpret the word castaway to mean that works were going to be unrewarded. We would have to understand that the reprobates of Rom. 1:29-32 will be saved. How could such men be saved and their works only be lost who are reprobate in mind and "filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, THAT THEY WHICH COMMIT SUCH THINGS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH"?

    The pots have too many cracks in them for a child of God even to want to be on the shelf with them, much less go to Heaven with them. Such reprobates are not only cracked pots but they are "broken cisterns, that can hold no water" (Jer. 2:13). They are clouds without water and trees, twice dead, plucked up by the roots (Jude 12-13). How could the "reprobates" (cracked pots or castaways) of 2 Cor. 13:5-7 be saved and go to Heaven when Paul said, "Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" If Christ is not in cracked pots or a person castaway, then it is clear that Paul feared losing his own soul, and in this respect he would not make a good modern ultra-grace man at all.

    How could the "reprobates" or cracked pots of 2 Tim. 3:8 and Tit. 1:16 be saved and go to Heaven when Paul said they 'resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth. ... They profess to know God; but in works deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate?" Paul said of them, "But they will proceed no further."

    Did Paul mean by the word "reprobate" that it was time for them to be laid on the shelf until God took them to Heaven? How could they be saved and go to Heaven when Paul classed them as "rejected" in Heb. 6:8 He spoke of them as bearing thorns and briers and whose end is to be burned. Is God going to burn all cracked pots and all who are laid on the shelf and take them to Heaven also? That voice from the silent centuries does not speak the truth, so we had better reject it and believe the present thundering voice of God which says, "if ye live after the flesh, YE SHALL DIE," not be laid on a shelf until God takes you to Heaven (Rom. 8:12-13).

    When Paul was afraid of being a "castaway" he literally meant he was afraid of losing his soul in Hell with all other reprobates and rejected men. When he told us what he had to do lest he should lose his soul, he wanted us to know that true security is in bringing the body under subjection as in Rom. 8:13 and in living right instead of living in sin every day, as advocated by unconditional securityites (Gal. 5:16-24; 3:7-14; 2 Tim. 4:7, 8; Heb. 12:14). Note in these passages that Paul not only lived a holy life, but he showed the way that all others should live in the same manner. He was not an unconditional security man. He taught conditional security, which is the only true security in Scripture.

    54. "For now we [Christians] live, IF [on condition that] ye stand fast in the Lord" (1 Thess. 3:8). This clearly states the condition of continued eternal life.

    55. Do not choose a new convert as a deacon, "lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil," that is, fall by pride as Satan did (1 Tim. 3:6; Ezek. 28:11-17). Beyond doubt, if deacons are saved men, then saved men can fall as Satan did and be lost.

    56. "Many shall DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1).

    57. "He has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (1 Tim. 5:8).

    58. "They have erred from the faith" (1 Tim. 6:9-10, 21; Jas. 5:19-20).

    59. "Who concerning the truth have erred . . . and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Tim. 2:17-18).

    60. "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil" (2 Tim. 2:25-26).

    61. "Give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip . . . How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation" (Heb. 2:1-4).

    62. "But with whom was he grieved . . . whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? And to whom he sware that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief" (Heb. 3:17-19). "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it" (Heb. 4:1-2). "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" (Heb. 4:11).

    63. "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God (fall from the grace of God); lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled" (Heb. 12:15). Thus, not only can man fall from grace and fail of grace so that he does not have it, but he can be destroyed because he is defiled (1 Cor. 3:16-17).

    64. "Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sins and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (James 1:13-16).

    65. "If ye have respect of persons ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law and offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jas. 2:9-13) Can a saved man ever fail in one point? Then he is guilty of all and must confess or be lost.

    66. "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins" (Jas. 5:19-20). This is written to saved men, to brethren, who can err from the truth, become sinners again, and die spiritually (lose eternal life), because of sin. If one does this he needs conversion again; and IF he is so converted again, then he is saved from the error of his way, he is saved again from death, and his sins are hidden again by being blotted out and forgiven. These facts truly make the possibility of backsliding and having a new birth again very clear.

    67. "If these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (2 Pet. 1:4-10). And only, "if ye do these things, ye shall never fall"— not to do these things can result in a fall.

    68. "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam" (2 Pet. 2:15-18).

    69. "IF we deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Tim. 2:12). This is a plain lie if God will not damn saved men should they sin and deny Him.

    70. "Beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 3:17-18).

    71. "These things write I unto you, THAT YE SIN NOT. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1-2). Saved men can sin and be lost if, when they sin, they do not use their advocate.

    72. "When they [saved women] have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE THEY CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH" (1 Tim. 5:11, 12, 15; 6:19, 20, 2l; 2 Tim. 2:17, 18; 4:10). These Scriptures are also lies if they do not mean what they say. They say that saved people can be damned if they destroy their faith.

    73. "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and we know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" (1 John 3:15). What about these backsliders or cracked pots who hate their brothers? Do they have eternal life? Who is right, God or man?

    74. "Whosoever committeth sin is of the Devil," not of God, regardless of past salvation (1 John 3:8).

    75. "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin UNTO DEATH, or of obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS.... the end of those things [committing sins] IS DEATH . . . For the wages of sin IS DEATH" (Rom. 6:16-23).

    Dake, Finis (2011). God's Plan for Man. Dake Publishing, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
  3. 76. "He that soweth to the flesh SHALL OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION" and not eternal life (Gal. 6:7, 8). This means saved men can be lost if they sow to the flesh.

    77. "Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 1:29-32). Unconditional securityites admit that saved men, even preachers, have failed God and have gone back to a life of sin in the flesh. Then how do they expect to see such men go to Heaven if they die in this state? They had better "BE NOT DECEIVED" and quit such unscriptural teaching.

    78. "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be CAST OUT, and to be TRODDEN under foot of men" (Matt. 5:13-14).

    79. "We ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard [the gospel], lest at ANY TIME we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE, IF WE NEGLECT so great salvation?" (Heb. 2:1-3). No person can neglect something that he does not have. Paul here warns saints that every sin will be judged by God and that it is possible to let the truth and salvation slip away. This certainly shows sinning-saints will come before God in judgment as well as sinners.

    80. "Whosoever transgressed, and abided not in the doctrine of Cast, hath not God. He that abideth . . . hath both the Father and the Son" (2 John 9, 10). Those that do not abide have neither the Father nor the Son, so will be lost unless they repent.

    81. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God.... If any man defile the temple of God, HIM SHALL GOD DESTROY; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" (1 Cor. 3:16-18; 6:9-11, 19, 20). This passage applies only to Christians as sinners do not have the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9). This is an untruth if God would not do what He said through Paul. Some did defile themselves and they lost eternal life (Tit. 1:15; Heb. 12:12-15; Rev. 3:4, 5; 21:27).

    82. The statements of 2 Pet. 2:20, 21 prove that men can sin and be lost. One writer says, "one really not born again may follow a little while outwardly, but they are like dogs who turn to their own vomit again.... If a dog had ever been regenerated and become a sheep, if the sow had ever been changed and become a lamb, neither would have gone back to the filth.... A dog is always a dog, and a sow is always a sow. One saved can never be lost."

    This argument is illogical and unscriptural. In the first place, the writer should know that no man is ever turned into another kind of creature, as a dog, a sheep, or a lamb by the new birth. Unsaved men are compared to sheep as well as are saved men (Isa. 53:6; Luke 15:1-10). A literal sheep can never be a man and a man can never become a sheep by the new birth, much less a dog or a sow. The new birth does not make him either, nor does backsliding.

    Peter is merely comparing a backslider to a dog going to his vomit again and a sow to her mire again, to show that a saved man can go back into sin again and be worse than in the beginning. He never dreamed men would ever get so illogical as to think that he taught that a dog or a sow could ever be anything else, but he did expect men to have sense enough to understand a simple illustration or comparison of a saved man going back into sin again.

    To say 2 Pet. 2:20, 21 refers to false teachers who have never been saved is to deny plain facts in this passage. There certainly is nothing in this passage or any other to support such an argument. Just the opposite is plainly stated here. The ones to whom Peter refers, as well as their followers, had one time had real experiences and were once saved, as proved by the following facts:

    1) "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray" (2 Pet. 2:15, 16). The Greek word for "forsaken" is kataleipo, to abandon, forsake and leave behind. It refers to leaving something of which one is a part such as a wife (Matt. 19:5; Eph. 5:31), a city (Matt. 4:13), a country (Heb. 11:27), etc. Forsaking the way of righteousness would then mean leaving something of which one had been a part. One could not leave the right way if he had not been in the right way. This is too obvious to deny. The phrase "gone astray" further proves this. This phrase is always used of something that has been in the right way at one time and then departed from it (Ex. 23:4; Deut. 22:1; Psalm 119:67, 176; Prov. 28:10; Ezek. 44:10-15; 48:11; Matt. 18:12-13; 2 Pet. 2:15).

    2) These false teachers mentioned by Peter had forsaken the right way, and had gone astray. They allured through the lusts of the flesh other saved men that had "clean escaped from them that live in error." (If those they allured by lusts WERE CLEAN ESCAPED from living in error, then they were once saved men.)

    3) "FOR IF AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED the pollutions of the world THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord Jesus Christ, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN, and OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THAN THE BEGINNING. For IT HAD BEEN BETTER for them not TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS than, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM the holy commandment delivered unto them.... Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found in him in peace, without spot, and blameless.... beware, LEST YE ALSO, BEING LED AWAY with the error of the wicked, FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEDFASTNESS. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 2:20-22; 3:14-18).

    It matters not whether they were false prophets of the Jews or Gentiles, the fact remains that the ones referred to had once escaped through the knowledge of Jesus, that they had known the way of righteousness, that they had received the holy commandment and had turned away from it later, that their latter end was worse than the beginning, that it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, and that Peter used their backslidings to warn men who were still saved that they had better "be diligent," "be without spot, and blameless" and "beware" lest they also fall into sin again and be lost (2 Pet. 3:14-18; 1:5-10).

    The fact that "angels" were given here as an example, showing the punishment of those who turn back into sin, is enough to prove that the ones referred to were once holy and had lived free from sin and bondage as did the angels at one time (2 Pet. 2:4). If one can prove that the angels were not at one time holy just because they sinned and are in Hell, then he can also prove that these false prophets and the ones they cause to backslide were not once holy and saved men. If one can prove that the fallen angels could not sin and that those who did sin are still holy and fit for Heaven, then he can prove the same thing of men who were once saved and who go back into sin. If one can prove that all men were not righteous in Adam and that the fall does not make them sinners and lost men, then he can also prove that men who regain righteousness and fall into sin will not become sinners and be lost again (Rom.5:12-21).

    Peter himself proves that escape from the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus means to be saved. In his first chapter of 2 Peter he said, "According as his divine power hath given us all things that pertain to life and godliness, THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of him . . . having ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION THAT IS IN THE WORLD through lust." Then he laid down the program for those that have escaped. They were to give "all diligence" and "add" Christian graces to their life daily. He added, "But he that lacketh these things is blind . . . and hath forgotten that HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS. . . . for IF YE DO these things, ye shall never fall" (2 Pet. 1:4-10). It is unbiblical to teach that men can escape the sins of this world and still not be saved.

    The Greek word for "knowledge" in 2 Pet. 2:20 is epignoses and means to acknowledge, own, accept, profess, endorse and recognize (Eph. 1:17; 4:13; Col. 3:10). These false prophets and those who had "clean escaped" from error and went back into bondage again had once acknowledged, owned, endorsed, professed, accepted and recognized the Lord and by these means escaped the pollutions of the world.

    The word "entangled" proves that men can go back into sin and be lost: "Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not ENTANGLED AGAIN with the yoke of bondage l referring to the sins of the flesh] . . . they that do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:1, 16-21, 24). Both Paul and Peter say that a man can be "entangled again") after being saved and they must become untangled again or be lost.

    The Greek word for "pollutions" is miasma and is from the root word miaino which means to dye with another color, to stain, to defile, soil and contaminate. If men escape the dye and stain of the world through the knowledge of Jesus and become "entangled again" in it, God will not take them to Heaven in such defilement. If one cannot be saved again and be cleansed from this defilement, as these false security teachers say, then he will be eternally lost.

    This Greek word is translated "defile" in Tit. 1:15; Heb. 12:14, 15; Jude 8, and "uncleanness" in 2 Pet. 2:10, so "pollutions" means the sins of the flesh. If those referred to escaped without Jesus and His knowledge, then there is another way to be saved from sin other than by the gospel, but this the Bible does not teach. If they did escape, as is plainly stated here, then it had to be by Jesus thus proving they were once saved.

    If they were once saved and became entangled AGAIN, they were sinners AGAIN, and it is understandable how the "latter end is worse than the beginning" and how "it had been better not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them (2 Pet. 2:20-22).

    They were lost and going to Hell in the beginning (before they were saved) and their latter end in Hell will be worse due to greater light and inexcusable failure in becoming entangled again when they could have been kept in salvation by the power of God which they previously had experienced. All men are worse after they backslide than before. If not, then all men had better backslide in order to better themselves.

    83. Heb. 4:4-6; 10:26-29 refer to apostates; to men who were once saved, but had become apostates and beyond redemption again. Whether they be all Jews or a mixture of Jews or Gentiles whom Paul is writing about, that is not worth arguing about. For the sake of argument, grant that they were all Jews. These passages still prove that a saved man can sin and be lost, as proved by the following:

    (1) They were "once enlightened" (Heb. 6:4). This could not refer to all men as sinners being mentally enlightened with gospel truth, for they would still be enlightened. Once implies past enlightenment and refers to the saving knowledge of the gospel. Thayer's Greek Lexicon says it refers to "those who have been made Christians." Paul wrote to saved men in other places using the same word: "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened" (Eph. 1:18), "after ye were illuminated [enlightened], ye endured a great fight of afflictions" (Heb. 10:32).

    The word "enlightened" is used of conversion in Psalm 19:7, 8; Luke 11:34-36.Sinners and lost men are spoken of as being "darkened" from gospel light (2 Cor. 4:4; Eph. 4:18; 5:8; Col. 1:13; 1 Thess. 5:5; 1 Pet. 2:9; 1 John 1:6; 2:8-11). Saints are called "children of light" (Eph. 5:8; Col. 1:12; 1 Thess. 5:5) and only saved men are spoken of as being in the light (Matt. 5:14-16; Luke 16:8; John 3:20, 21; 8:12; 12:36; Rom. 13:12; Eph. 5:14; Col. 1:12; 1 John 1:7; 2:9, 10). Thus it is illogical to argue that being "once enlightened" refers to men who were never saved.

    (2) They had "tasted of the heavenly gift . . . the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" (Heb. 6:4, 5). The Greek word for "tasted" is geuomai, literally, to eat food, but used here figuratively to experience. It is used in other Scriptures of the experience of "death" (Matt. 16:28; John 8:52; Heb. 2:9) and to experience "the Lord" (1 Pet. 2:3). The taste "of the heavenly gift" means to experience Jesus Christ. To taste "the good word of God" is to be saved, as proved in the following passages (Matt. 13:20-23; Luke 8:13-15; John 15:3; Acts 2:41; 4:4; 8:14; 11:1; 17:11; Rom. 10:9, 10; Eph. 5:26; James 1:18-25; 1 Pet. 1:18-23).

    Not one Scripture ever says that an unsaved man receives the word of God and remains unsaved and continues in sin. To taste "the powers of the world to come" means to experience "eternal life." Every time such a statement is found it refers to eternal life (Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; 20:35). This is proof that "those" Paul was speaking about had experienced Christ, the word of God, and eternal life. Even once-in-grace men admit "those" referred to are lost, so if they had once experienced these things and will be lost, then other saved men can sin and be lost.

    (3) They had been "made partakers of the Holy Ghost" (Heb. 6:4). No sinner is ever made a partaker of the Holy Ghost (Rom. 8:9-16). When men argue that this refers to sinners it only proves their utter lack of understanding of the most simple gospel truths. The Greek word for "partakers" is metochos and means a participant or sharer with, an associate with, fellow, and partner.

    It is almost blasphemy to accuse the Holy Ghost of being a partner, sharer, participant and associate with ungodly, Christ-rejecting Jews, as the false securityites teach.

    This Greek word is translated "partakers of the heavenly calling" (Heb. 3:1), "partakers of Christ" (Heb. 3:12-14), "partakers of the Holy Ghost" (Heb. 4:4), "partakers" of chastening which IS given only to sons of God (Heb. 12:8)—thus proving these men had really experienced the Holy Ghost.

    Jesus said the world (sinners) cannot receive the Holy Ghost (John 14:17). Paul said that sinners do not have the Holy Ghost (Rom. 8:9, 14-16; 1 Cor. 12:3, 12, 13; 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5). Jude said of sinners that they did not have the Spirit (Jude 19). Thus, these men Paul refers to in Heb. 6 had once experienced the Holy Ghost and had become lost, and the same will always be true of apostates, and even ordinary backsliders if they die in their sins.

    (4) They (who had all the above experiences) were in danger of falling away or becoming apostates, and "IF they shall fall away [apostatize], TO RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance [it is impossible, Heb. 6:4] seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . . . that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected [Greek, adokimos, castaway, reprobate, as in Point 2 above] . . . whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things OF YOU" (Heb. 6:6-9). No man could apostatize or fall away from something he was not in; no man could be "renewed again" if he had not been renewed once; no man could have the above experiences without being saved; and no man could lose those experiences and reject them as untrue without being eternally lost.

    The Greek word parapipto for fall away means to apostatize, desert, or throw overboard all faith in the experiences of the gospel and deny them. Men are here warned not to do this, proving such is possible, and if they do apostatize it is impossible to renew them again to repentance because of rejecting the only sacrifice that could renew them to repentance and save the soul. If such will be "rejected," "castaway" and "burned" then saved men can again become lost and go to Hell because of sin.

    (5) Men can "sin willfully" and "despise" the gospel and their former experiences (Heb. 10:26-31). Such will receive "judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries," which is considered a "much sorer punishment" than destruction "without mercy" under the law of Moses. The Greek word for despised is athleteo meaning to set aside, disesteem, violate, cast off, disannul, frustrate, reject and bring to nought. When a man did this under the law, there was no mercy shown. Paul here warns men under grace and who had been saved that if this happens to them and they "despised" the gospel they will receive a worse judgment and punishment than men did under the law.

    Atheteo is translated "reject" (Mark 6:26; Luke 7:30; John 12:48), "cast off" (1 Tim. 5:12), "despise" (Luke 10:16; 1 Thess. 4:8; Heb. 10:28; Jude 8), "bring to nothing" (1 Cor. 1:19), "disannul" (Gal. 3:15), and "frustrate" (Gal. 2:21). To "sin willfully" then means to throw overboard all gospel faith as seen above in Heb. 6:4-9. The people referred to here in Heb. 10:26-31 had the following experiences:

    A. They had "received the knowledge of the truth," which is the same as "tasting the good word of God," as in Point (2) above, so they must have been saved (Heb. 10:26).

    B. They had been "sanctified" by "the blood of the covenant" (Heb. 10:29). Mere ceremonial sanctification or the kind in 1 Cor. 7:14 cannot be done by the blood of Jesus. This refers to personal holiness by the blood, as proved in Heb. 13:12, 20; 1 John 1:7; Eph. 1:7; Rev. 1:5. So the statement "hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith HE WAS SANCTIFIED [not could have been, but WAS SANCTIFIED], an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto [blasphemed] the Spirit of grace" proves that a saved, sanctified and holy man can backslide and be lost. "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge his people." If God said He would recompense and judge His people who sin, then it is true and unconditional security is false.

    84. It is definitely stated in 1 John 2:24, 25 that it is entirely left up to us to let eternal life abide in us and that it does as long as we continue in the Son and in the Father. The Person that was from the beginning referred to in these verses is Christ who is our eternal life (1 John 1:1, 2; John 17:2, 3). It would be foolish to ask men to "Let that abide in" them if it were impossible for them to do otherwise.

    85. "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul" (Heb. 10:38, 39). If any man could not draw back and go to perdition this is a waste of words like the many hundreds of other passages that state a man dies when he sins.

    86. If we hold fast "TO THE END" we are of God's house (Heb. 3:6), we become partakers of Christ eternally (Heb. 3:11-14); we enter into eternal rest (Heb. 6:19; 4:1-11); we will not fall as did others (Heb. 4:11); we shall inherit the promises (Heb. 6:11, 12; 10:23, 35, 36); and be saved eternally (Heb. 10:38, 39; 12:14, 15; 1 Pet. 1:5, 9, 13; 2 Pet. 1:3-10; 3:17, 18; Jude 20-24); but IF we do not hold fast to the end we shall be lost. These passages are lies if there are no conditions to meet to be saved in the end.

    87. "The soul that sinned IT SHALL DIE" (Ezek. 18:4). Both the righteous and wicked are referred to in Ezek. 3:18-21; 18:4-32; 33:11-20, SO if both classes are addressed as dying when sin is committed, it is foolish to contradict God. The same thing was said to Adam (Gen. 2:17), SO if he died when he sinned, then the righteous today will also die for committing sin. It simply means that any man who sins will be sent to Hell, for eternal Hell is the death penalty.

    88. Jude speaks of some who were "twice dead" (Jude 12). Men are born dead in sins, so to die a second time would have to be after the new birth. This proves men can die more than once and therefore they can be made alive more than once, as proved in Lesson Twenty-three, Point IV, 14.

    89. "I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do thy first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove the candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Rev. 2:4-5). See also Rev. 2:16, 20-23; 3:3-4.

    90. "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Rev. 2:10).

    91. "He that overcometh . . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" (Rev. 3:5; 22:18-19; Ex. 32:32-33; Ps. 69:28). If one does not overcome we can expect then, that his name will be blotted out of the book of life.

    These many Scriptures above plainly say that saved men when they sin will die and be lost. Are we going to believe these and many other Scriptural facts or believe the false theory of unconditional security so we can still live in sin? If the above passages do not refer to the saved then they do not mean what they say, for sinners could not: be called "brethren," be "in the Lord," "in Christ," be "just," and be the ones Christian letters were written to. Sinners could not "wax wanton against Christ" or "cast off their first faith." They could not again go after Satan unless they had first turned to God (Acts 26:18).

    Dake, Finis (2011). God's Plan for Man. Dake Publishing, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
  4. I will have to wholeheartedly disagree! with what seems to be totally out of context cherry picking.

    Saul, became Paul. Where was he lost?
  5. I just posted this thread a moment ago. Did you honestly read the entire thread?

    Call it what you want! No cherry picking here!

    You may disagree all you want. At least others may read it and receive a blessing from doing so.


    David Ward Jr
  6. He is probably talking about Saul the King prior to David. But, your are right to say he is just cherry picking. I have found that legalizers often try to give massive amounts of Scripture quotes through many posts. Or, they give one exceptionally long post with many Scriptures. Why? Not so much becaue their postion is sound, but just the oppposite. It is very shakey and they need the vast amount of room to manuvere and hide. Just an observation.



    If you want to continue in the sins you love, you go right ahead! Don't think to say, "I'm a Christian," when God Himself can bring forth a Christian from a rock! BRING FORTH FRUITS MEET FOR REPENTANCE!
  8. Maybe it is because I care enough about my soul and the soul of others to gather EVERYTHING there is on a subject in order to rightly divide the Word of Truth!

    Maybe it is because I'm not a slothful sluggard when it comes to the Word of God.

    I'm not surprised you dislike me and profane me. The Lord said you would!
  9. I think he meant Saul from the Old Testament.

    I guess I would ask where does the Bible say Saul was saved to begin with? God uses all things good and bad to work together for His purpose. It seems to me that when the people demanded God appoint a king over them like the other nations, He also warned them they would regret it!!!
    Major likes this.
  10. Isn't it funny how I'm actually TAKING THE TIME and INVESTING THE TIME to explain my point VERY WELL. Yet, all you can do is NOT invest time to explain any point you wish to make. The only points you give are commandments of men and not commandments of God. Which is to say, you only give me your own words and not the Words of God to explain away an excuse to continue in sin.
  11. My position on this subject is, since God knows our heart and the future, then He knows whether we will turn away someday or remain faithful.


    Let's suppose two men, brothers, are Baptized today and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. The brothers drive away and are in a fatal crash killing them both instantly.

    As human being we will all believe on faith that the two brothers went to heaven, correct?

    What you seem to miss is that God knows what is in their hearts. God would know if the brothers had lived and ended up paralyzed, if one or both would have turned away.

    So are they saved because the died before the turned? Or are they saved because God knows that they would have remain faithful if they had lived?

    Once you are saved you are saved forever. But we can't tell the saved from the unsaved - only God can.
  12. Actually I have given Scripture. You do not refute them. You just rant about how they are the commandments of men.

    Again, Im wondering how eternal life is eternal if you can lose it?


  13. Ginger,

    I'm not sure if you read all 91 points given in THREE (3) different threads. If you haven't, I ask you kindly to read all 91 points of Eternal Life Can Be Lost. THEN comeback, and I will discuss your points with you.


  15. Like I said, you need the room.


  16. You have not entered into it YET! We must hold on to it to the end! If you don't hold on to it to the end, you lose it!
  17. No, you haven't.

  18. You are sadly deceived, Quantrill! SADLY!
  19. YES I HAVE!

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