Enduring To The End To Be Saved?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Enow, Oct 9, 2012.

  1. There has been talk about enduring to the end to be saved as if salvation can be lost.

    Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Enduring to the end to be saved is referring to enduring to the end to be saved from God's wrath which is coming upon the earth. It also addresses the necessity of every believer as His disciple to prepare themselves with the help of the Good Shepherd and by His grace, because God will judge His House first.

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    Consider Peter's question in verse 41 below and discern with His help, the Lord's answer.

    Luke 12: 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
    So Jesus is answering Peter's question that what He is saying is to all who believe in Him, signalling a time when He will send fire on the earth. The consequences for not preparing oneself is that He will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers which is leading to that fire He is sending on the earth.

    So consider Paul's word below as this addresses every believer in Christ Jesus.

    1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? .....23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
    Now Paul is referring to that day when that fire shall come on the believers, trying what work he has built upon that foundation which is laid in Christ Jesus as to what it is. Paul affirms that salvation is not lost, but stresses the fact that since believers are His, they should beware how they build on that foundation, because they have been bought with a price and sealed as His for they are the Lord's.

    This is the judgment day on the House of God wherein those not abiding in Him are destroyed from being that vessel unto honour in His House to attend the Marriage Supper into becoming that vessel unto DISHONOUR in His House for not abiding in Him and His words.

    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

    These vessels unto dishonour are considered the least in the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    So when you read His words below: the words can apply to any believer that are saved.

    John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
    So the key to being chosen for the Marriage Supper from the many that are called is by abiding in His words.

    John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

    The key here is not to become prideful nor complacent in our walk with Him, and we avoid that by trusting Him as our Good Shepherd to keep the foot of pride away from us and to not let the word of truth depart from our mouths.

    Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    To be cut off does not mean a believer has lost his salvation, but cut off from his first inheritance of attending the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as a vessel unto honour in His House, thus the need to repent by departing from iniquity by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us do it.

    Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin..............25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

    Do note verse 28 signifying OSAS, but yet not every believer will be found ready for the Marriage Supper.

    So those left behind are suffering chastisement for this purpose:

    Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

    As God led Paul to teach the purpose of excommunication, so will God help you to see why He will judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event as He did addressed seven churches in Revelation to prepare themselves or else.

    1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    May you see God casting the church at Thyatira into the bed of the great tribulation as the same.

    Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    So the similarity is seen here in how God will judge His House which will occur before the Marriage Supper.

    1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    The Marriage Supper will be kept in the same way.

    So the foolish virgins will have oil for their lamps and be shining finally but too late for the Marriage Supper, yet signifying our confidence in Jesus that He will finish His work even in those left behind as the prodigal son in losing his first inheritance of attending the Marriage Supper will find he is still son.

    It is not a small loss because there will be weeping and ganshing of teeth so bad that those coming out of the great tribulation will need a miracle from God to get past that great loss by Him wiping the tears from their eyes.

    Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    So do consider that those that profess to believe even in His name that are saved, but they err in not believing in the deity of Christ, will die in their sins are the same as those that sow to the flesh and reap corruption without repenting will die in their sins when He comes to judge His House.

    His promises below stands even for those saints left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    So let us exhort one another in keeping the faith and to look to Him for help in continuing in His words to abide in Him and thereby relying on Him to enable us to endure to the end to be saved from the wrath of God that is coming on the earth.
     
  2. Wow, thanks, this verse has exhorted me today!! If we do any 'small' sin / breaking least commandment in the presence of others we are teaching them to do it.
     
  3. Hi KJ. I hope you are well. I also hope that you will allow me to speak to Matt,5:19 as well.

    Because of the seriousness of the Law, Jesus emphasized the importance of keeping even its smallest details. HOWEVER........in the intimate plan of God, the Law was NOT to become an extra burden on the souls of men. Rather than pointing the way to salvation, the Law convinced men of the need for a Savior. Therefore.................
    "whosoever, SHALL TEACH MEN SO" but shall not live what he teaches, he shall be made least in the kingdom of heaven."

    To me, this means that God will reward the faithfullness and effectivness of our lives and there will be varying degrees of blessings and rewards in the kingdom.
     
  4. :)I am well, thanks. I fully agree with you Major!

    The scripture makes me think of white lies. Telling a white lie is bad. Telling a white lie in front of others when they know you are telling a white lie, thereby encouraging them to tell white lies is very bad. Emphasis on ''shall teach men so''.
     
  5. Problem with that is that...

    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    You might want to reconsider...If Jesus (the Holy Spirit) lives within you, you wont lie. That is why you need the power of God. You cant tell me that a person with the Holy Spirit is still going to be a liar and get into heaven...They are clearly going to the lake of fire. Remember, if you are in Christ...you are made new.

    And

    1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    So tell me how those who commit such acts and teach men to do so are still going to get into the kingdom, when scripture clearly says they won't...Here is your answer...repentance during judgment:

    Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


    2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    During the Lords reign, He will chastise and rebuke those He loves. Those that don't repent during that time will be cast away,

    The only ones who don't make it are those who deny Him until the end. Better to be prepared in your heart and repent now, rather than wait and be chastised and beaten! Have you overcome the world?


    The word legalism should be discarded...The Bible is clear about obeying the Lord...

    1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
    1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.



    2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
    2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

    Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


    If you are still living a worldly lifestyle, you are not in Him...


    1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


    Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    The Holy Ghost is our seal...

    Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


    2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

    If you don't obey the word of God, you don't get that seal...


    Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    If you don't have the Holy Spirit, you are not one of His:

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


    Many will try to call Him Lord and will not be let in the gate:

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:



    If you are still living for the cares of this world and the desires of your flesh rather than taking care of the poor and the sick and the widows and the afflicted of the world, you are not one of His.

    Those that are of the flesh cannot please God:

    om 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Judgment day is coming and there is not going to be a rapture folks...He will separate the sheep from the goats and allow those into the Kingdom that did His will through His Spirit...Don't think for a minute that you can live for this life and not prepare for the one to come...

    T/C
     
  6. Agreed!
     
  7. Do consider what you are saying, because it is only those that do not believe that are condemned and yet those that believe are saved. Jesus did not give a litany of laws to keep other then to believe in Him for eternal life. That would be like finishing by the flesh what was begun with the Spirit.

    Jesus commanded His disciples to teach believers to be His disciples so that they may be fruitful and not lose their full reward which is to be that vessel unto honour in His House to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. If they do not depart from iniquity, like lying, then when God comes to judge His House, they will be left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event and be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation when they will be destroyed from being that vessel unto honour in His House into becoming that vessel unto DISHONOUR in His House where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Believers err from the truth and lie and not even know it. Believing coupes have "lied" to their children about Sanat Claus, the Esater Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. They shouldn't do this, but then again, it is a far cry to say that they do not have the Holy Spirit or that they are not saved or that they are not going to Heaven, but they are at risk of losing their first inheritance unless they repent, and be found abiding in Him when He comes.

    The fact that believers are exhorted to put away lying means believers can still lie, but they need to repent.

    Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

    So let's not wave that stick of condemnation around less we start trying to finish by the flesh what was begun with the Spirit because we are to live by faith in the Son of God as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him and that means trusting Him to convict us to repent if we ever should lie and to trust Him to help us stop lying if any sinner happens to be a chronic or habitual liar before he or she was saved or for some oddball reason, had picked it up long after he or she was saved, bit that does not mean they were not saved, but they are to be exhorted to put away lying. See?

    Same thing about believers that are practising fornicators. It is because of this truth below is why they should repent.

    1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

    See that? Paul did not say that they were never saved nor that these sinning believers are liars. Paul spoke to the reality of our new life in Christ so that believer may beware that they will be held accountable to Jesus Christ.

    Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

    So how we build on that foundation will be judged when God comes to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19), but salvation is not at stake, but our first inheritance is. Behold.

    1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.....23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

    So OSAS is true, but as many are called, only the chosen, the abiding disciples by His grace and by His help shall attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

    John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The confidence in Jesus Christ to finish His work in us also goes to those wayward saints left behind.
     
    KingJ likes this.
  8. Enow...I like how you skipped kind of an important fact: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.....

    If He is in you...and you are defiling His temple...However, if you are just a professing Christian- one who doesn't have oil in the lamp, or isn't a sheep hearing His voice, then you will be chastened before entering the city.

    There isn't a rapture my friend. Jesus comes to gather out of the kingdom those who are workers of iniquity.

    Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    Pro 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
    Pro 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it


    Explain to me how you have a 'pre-tribulation rapture when the trumpets are not handed out until after the tribulation is over?

    T/C
     
  9. Enow..You also said "Same thing about believers that are practising fornicators. It is because of this truth below is why they should repent." Instead of using your 'truth'...let's use the Bibles version about repentance:

    Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


    To even be a believer, you have to repent first.


    Even Christians who are carnal are going to perish because they haven't been born in the spirit:

    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    even repenting for the wrong reason can lead to death:


    2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


    That is why when He returns to rule that repentance will be His number one reason...

    2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


    And why the wise servant- the one with oil in the lamp will rule over the ashamed one...the one with no oil.



    Pro 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.


    2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

    Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


    It happens at the sixth seal...

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Immediately AFTER after the tribulation is over:

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    So much for a 'pre-tribulation rapture theory...



    He will rule for a thousand years and all will be made to repent during this time of punishment:

    Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on thechildren of disobedience:
    Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye livedin them.


    Those that repent will be allowed in the gate:
    Psa 118:18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hathnot given me over unto death.
    Psa 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will gointo them, and I will praise the LORD:


    Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    There won't be a rapture...He is going to rip the sky open and say hello to the whole world. Those who are ready will be allowed into the gate of New Jerusalem when it comes down. The rest will be thrown into darkness to repent.

    T/C
     
  10. What do you think makes a vessel unto honour in His House to become that vessel unto DISHONOUR in His House? It is that destruction in that day of fire spoken of when God judges His House first.

    Having been bought with a price and sealed as His is why God will judge His House first. The church at Thyatira was warned to depart from iniquity of fornication or be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation unless they repent. God will be addressing the iniquity of every non-repenting believer in the same fashion He led Paul to teach the church about excommunication in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter in the purpose it was to serve.


    1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth....
    12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

    For what the church failed to judge, God will.

    Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby....14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
    So one can be left behind for not departing from iniquity in losing that first inheritance of attending the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as a vessel unto honour in His House.

    It is because of the falling away from the faith FIRST is why God is judging His House FIRST.

    Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    Isaiah 27:9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up. 10 Yet the defenced city shall be desolate, and the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness: there shall the calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof. 11 When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, and set them on fire: for it is a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will shew them no favour. 12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

    Only God can help you see the symobolic similarity of His judgment here to be re-enacted in the coming future soon.

    Yes: that is God excommunicating the ones that did not prepare themselves nor found abiding in Him in His words.

    More applicable for the end of the great tribulation and the start of the milleniel reign of Christ.

    Explain to me how anyone would want to get ready now if they are waiting for the trumpets at the end of the great tribulation to get their houses in order? That call of readiness to depart is now: when the cares of this life can take a believer unaware. No believer will be taken unaware during the great tribulation, because they will know that they had missed the Marriage Supper of the Lamb for which the voice of the bride and the bridegroom has ceased.

    Revelation 18:33And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    The time to get ready is now by looking to the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight and sin to be found abiding in Him and His words as His disciples to be chosen from the many that are called to come.
     
  11. Those left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event will perish. An example reference below.

    Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    What you are failing to see is His promise in vere 39 below.

    John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Therefore the wayward saints will be chastened severely for not being found abiding in Him because they had been bought with a price and sealed as His so that when they are destroyed into becoming that vessel unto dishonour in His House, they will still testify to the glory of the saving power of God in Christ Jesus for even those that believe in His name.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    By His grace and by His help, it is up to His disciples to make disciples of other believers by leaning on Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd and not just as their Saviour in living that reconciled relationship with God through the Son.
     
  12. Enow, I think for the most part we are in agreement that the lukewarm are going to go throught a time of punishment and corrections( which most don't seem to understand) Most think that if you profess His name, you are in good standing and you can live as you want and do what is right in your own eyes. Where we differ is what happens at that day...


    You believe in a 'pre- tribulation rapture up to Heaven' which can't be supported by scriptures.

    You said:
    Those left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event will perish. An example reference below.

    Here is what I see in the scriptures. I believe that the Bible says Jesus will return and gather His people into the 'barn' (New Jerusalem)which is brought down out of Heaven at His return.

    Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    I believe that everyone has to endure their own tribulation, which is caused by following Him.

    Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

    ( until He returns, that kingdom lies within us)

    Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
    Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
    Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us

    Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

    2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

    Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


    The tribulation we endure is caused by following the word of God. It is called the trial of our faith. Jesus Started this tribulation when He came down the first time. He said he came to start a fire:

    Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

    Which is the trial of our faith:

    1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

    1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


    Even back then they were exhorting each other to endure tribulation and trial of their faith. Those who endure this 'trial of their faith' which is essentially overcoming the world because the whole world lies in wickedness:

    1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

    Because Satan is the god of this world and the temptations of the flesh come from him. That is why we have to become born again and overcome our flesh. Thus we walk in the spirit...

    When Jesus returns, New Jerusalem will come down with Him.

    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


    Those who are found worthy will be allowed to enter the gate of the city:


    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    You believe there is a 'rapture', I believe Jesus is going to return on the clouds and bring New Jerusalem with Him. So if He is here with us...where will you folks that were 'raptured' going to be?

    When He returns, those who have circumsized their hearts with the word of God and became spiritually discerned will be ready. The rest will be left outside the gate to repent during judgment.

    One other thing that proves this...those who are in the 'first resurrection are either killed for their witness or they overcome the mark of the beast. So those who would be raptured before this time will not be in the wedding.



    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    Those are the saints my friend...and they return with Him to judge the people:

    Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


    The saints are an elite group who came out of 'great tribulation':

    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb


    Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


    There is not going to be a rapture my friend. At a day when everyone is buying and selling and building and planting and carrying on with the cares of this life, He will return and the party will be over. Those who were found doing His will are going to be let in the gate, those who are refused at the gate are going to be punished. Some more severely that others because they knew what they were supposed to be doing, and some because they were not given as much will receive less punishment. There isn't a rapture.


    Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
    Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
    Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

    Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
    Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not


    Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

    2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

    Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    Be serving Him when He returns folks...purify your hearts and be ready for that day.

    Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Psa 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.


    Pro 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


    Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
    Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

    He is coming here, we are not going anywhere

    There is no rapture...

    God Bless
    T/C
     
  13. That seems to be the ground which we disagree on that we agree on.

    Since it is on God to cause the increase, I can only hope He will help you to see what I see. New Jerusalem coming down from heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband: and that bride is the church of Christ, the raptured saints. It was not to receive the bride, but Jew Jerusalem had already received the bride as it was prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. If we remember this promise:

    John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Then this prophesy is referring to the pre trib rapture, because of the falling away from the faith which is why God will judge His House first. This is when believers and churches that did not prepare themselves get appointed their portion with the unbelievers by being cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation as it is that day I speak of.

    Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
    Psalm 45: 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. 15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
    When we take the whole of scripture, by His grace and by His help, we may see the coming prophetic event in order.

    Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    Now consider that point. The Lord is coming back with the saints to deal with Satan and his armies.

    Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    But here, we have the saints being resurrected after the defeat of Satan and his armies. These saints are specifically identified as coming out of the great tribulation. "First resurrection" is misapplied and misunderstood by readers as being first of all resurrection when it is just deferring from the other resurrection of the rest of the dead that will occur later.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    There are three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of God: the firstfruits which is the first harvest: and "they" that are Christ at His coming: and then the end, the final harvest which will occur after the final defeat of Satan after that short season after the milleniel reign of Christ.

    Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

    That is why there are three watches wherein the first watch comes with a reward of a meal.

    Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

    So Jesus once again, warns His disciples in preparing for the first watch.

    Luke 12: 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

    As God led Paul to speak about excommunicating a non repentant brother, so will God do because of the falling away from the faith which will signal the end of the times of the Gentiles, in giving the despensation of the Gospel back to the Jews after the pre trib rapture event.

    Yes: believers will suffer tribulation, but the great tribulation is in regards to His fire coming on the earth.

    Psalm 125:3For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity.

    Yet all of the saints coming out of the great tribulation experienced that rod of the wicked: that fire and heat.

    Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
    Missing out on the Marriage Supper will cause weeping and gnashing of teeth for which these saints will need God to perform a miracle to get past that loss by wiping the tears from their eyes which would be the only reason He has to since it is an eternal judgment to be destroyed from being that vessel unto honour in His House into becoming that vessel unto dishonour in His House.

    That's what the erring saints will get for hungering for more of God by seeking another filling of the "Spirit", thus denying the faith in hypocrisey when He is already in them as a testimony that they are filled, sealed and thus saved when they had first come to Jesus Christ in believing in Him to be saved.

    Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    It is that day I speak of because of the falling away from the faith is the reason why God has to judged His House first to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake.
     
    KingJ likes this.
  14. Excellant responce and Biblically true! I agree.
     
  15. You and I are in 100% disagreement.

    Lets use simple 'applied common sense' to discuss this.

    1) If we agree that God's wrath will hit earth in the tribulation period (7 trumpets)...God's wrath hits the doers of iniquity...which Christians are not. God's people ESCAPE God's wrath. Look at every example of God's wrath in OT.

    2) If we believe the anti-christ is a creation of the devil that will reign during the tribulation period, then why can't any Christian with the power of Jesus go and cast him into swine? As long as Christians and the Holy Spirit are here, how can the devil have his way? Hitler may have been inspired by demons, but he was an evil 'man'.

    3) You say 'if Jesus is with us How can he come to fetch us'. He is God, He is omnipresent. The part of the God head that is '''physically''' not just spiritually with us, is the Holy Spirit. Do you believe in the trinity?

    4) How will the Jews, God's chosen race get a second chance unless they see the anti-christ and the two prophets?
    Why would God send two prophets to do miracles and oppose the anti-christ when he has a couple million Christians with the power of Jesus already?
     
  16. And yet because of the falling away from the faith, the wayward saints that will be left behind will be restored to the path of righteousness for His name's sake so that none of the saints will bear the specific consequences of the trumpets on those with the mark of the beast.

    The scripture testifies that the spirits of the antichrist has been present even back in the early church days which was why believers were warned not to believe every spirit, but test them. The fact that any believer testifies of the Holy Spirit coming over them "again" proves that the believer did not test the spirit, but believed that spirit to be of God, because the line of discernment given: greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world means that what the believer is "feeling" in the supernatural sensationalism in the flesh as coming over them and filling them means it is not of God. Some believers experience it for the first times, years later after they had believed, and misinterpret that to mean at that moment, they were saved because they had that experience and spoke in tongues too. This causes other believers that had no experience of such to seek to receive the Holy Spirit after the sign of tongues that comes with no interpretation also. Some have been known to walk away from Jesus Christ altogether, thinking they are of the damned for not having that supernatural experience, and some of them go right into the occult because of it.

    That is why His disciples preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to receive Him by faith and not by sight. Tongues were to serve as a sign to unbelievers: tongues was never meant to serve as a sign to believers to seek after.

    Again, the same experience can occur and be interpreted differently, trying to make sense of something by fitting it inbetween the lines in the Bible by declaring instead the same experience of the "Spirit" coming over them when they began to speak in tongues that comes with no interpretation as not the point of salvation experience for them, but when God was calling them into the ministry.

    Even one of the "church fathers" had stated that tongues was proof of the church keeping the doctrines within still.

    But scriptiure says plainly that tongues were not evidence nor were they to serve as a sign to believers, but towards unbelievers.

    Supernatural tongues that comes with no interpretation were in the world before God's gift of tongues of other men's lips had come on the day of Pentecost, so no one can say Satan was copycatting God's gift of tongues. It is that line of discernment that believers should be aware of because familiar spirits bring supernatural tongues which is why believers are not to believe every spirit les they speak as the world speaks and hear as the world hears which is the spirit of error: aka the spirits of the antichrist which is in the world even back then: 1 John 4:1-7 So whenever they say that the Spirit of Christ is here or there in a place: and not giving the good report that He is in us, that is not the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of the antichrist which is in the world. The Holy Spirit cannot get any closer to us outside of us doing parlor tricks: He dwells within us to fulfill His role as the Comforter, pointing us to keep relating to God the Father through the Son because He is the Bridegroom, otherwise, risking committing spiritual fornication with false spirits, thinking they are relating to God through that "Spirit" by a prayer language that cannot be understood when in actuality, they are going around the Son Whom is before that throne of grace in serving as the Bridegroom.

    John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Where Jesus has ascended physically is where He is now and where He will receive those abiding in Him to be at.

    The omnipresense of God is not dependent on the Holy Spirit since no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. John 6:44

    I know or at least I think I know that your question is directed toward the Town Crier, but in answering that question, I do believe in the Triune God, but one should lean on God for wisdom when errant saints start broadening the way in how they are to approach God the Father because all invitations points to the Son Whom the Holy Spirit in us is still pointing believers to go to as He is the Bridegroom for us to avoid false spirits as well as false prophets in the world.

    Not to mention that many saints will be made to rest from their labours as their works will follow them would more than suggest that the death of these saints in fallen Babylon (USA and the entire Western Hemisphere which is one third of the earth) where the voice of the bride and the bridegroom will no longer be heard in her anymore are the wayward saints that were left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event which is why the despensation of the gospel went to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses for the duration of the great tribulation.

    Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    Look at how soon after the pre trib rapture these wayward saints were to die.

    Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    These warnings will be given out to every living person so that they will be without excuse about not knowing the gospel, nor the consequences for not heeding the warning against taking the mark of the beast. This sets the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth as the one third of the earth being burned up will serve as a catalyst for the New World Order to re allocate remainder resources to designated "loyal" citizens of that order.

    It is the only possible scenario that can derive from having a third of the earth burned up which coincidentally is the entire Western Hemisphere ( God Foreseeing setting the stage already ahead of time) in order for the armies of the world from Russia and China coming through and with Iran and other nations to be present against Israel & the coming Christ to that valley of Armegeddon.

    It should be telltaling how the devil knew when to gather the armies at His coming, hence there has to be a rapture before that time for which believers are told to prepare and to watch for in being ready at any time.

    Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    Stands to reason that once the door is shut to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the devil can no longer accuse the brethren before our God day and night, because the devil is not welcomed there. By this we can read that the devil knows he has a short time left to prepare for His coming.

    Redirecting everybody's attention away from all the media capture of Jesus Christ appearing at the pre trib rapture event with WWIII for survival is the only way the devil has the means to tempt mankind, but after WWIII, He will send the warning to every one regarding the consequence so that when things settle down to implement the NWO, they will be without excuse if they take the mark.

    The saints will repent in time as Jesus will restore them to the path of righteousness for His name's sake:

    Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Revelation 14:13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
     
  17.  
  18. Enow said:
    That seems to be the ground which we disagree on that we agree on.



    "Since it is on God to cause the increase, I can only hope He will help you to see what I see. New Jerusalem coming down from heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband: and that bride is the church of Christ, the raptured saints. It was not to receive the bride, but Jew Jerusalem had already received the bride as it was prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. If we remember this promise:"


    The part in red is what I want to focus on...Let's see what Revelation says about the bride and the saints:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    Which one of those are you going to be? And how about all of those who have already been killed for His namesake so that the gospel could survive for you and I to believe in Him. Your arrogance is appalling.
    When you are killed for His name then call yourself a saint. There is NOTHING in that scripture that says the 'saints' are whisked away from tribulation:



    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.



    The other other part to this...is the mark of the beast. Those who are in the marriage with Him overcame the mark of the beast and the number of His name...which means it is out right now and you have to overcome it if you are going to be in the marriage and reign with Him.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    Now let's look at the harvest and what happens to those in the harvest:

    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    It appears to me...and maybe I am 'misinterpreting' this, but it sure looks like they DIE to me...it doesn't say they are alive and are raptured...

    Your suggestion that the saints are 'raptured' is an insult. What about the thousands who have been killed in the last two thousand years for Him. and how about those around the world right now who are truly being persecuted, beaten and killed for His sake? What are you doing for the kingdom of Heaven? What makes you a saint...

    2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

    The arrogance of the rapture crowd is getting ridiculous. The rapture folks are the lukewarm who are going to be refused because they have not picked up their cross. They will not be let into the gate when He brings it down out of Heaven.They will not be worthy:

    Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

    That word 'worthy' means:

    G514
    ἄξιος
    axios
    ax'-ee-os
    deserving, comparable or suitable (as if drawing praise): - due reward, meet, [un-] worthy.

    G2661
    καταξιόω
    kataxioō
    kat-ax-ee-o'-o
    to deem entirely deserving: - (ac-) count worthy.

    Sorry, but a rapture is not going to happen...To believe in Him means that He has come into your heart and made you a new creature. And that you have made yourself a living sacrifice for Him. I am not saying you have to be killed to enter the gate, but you better be in Grace...the power of the Holy Spirit having your light shining brightly when He returns. Those who have died for Him and gave up ALL are saints...they will be returning to rule with Him. The rest of us are considered 'fellowcitizens' with them

    Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


    Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    T/C
     
  19. I appreciate your continuance in this matter as I understand your reasoning, but I need to redirect you back to your premise. Although Jesus does go on to testify of the coming promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit starting in verse 15, that was not all He was talking about from the onset of that chapter, so you need to reconsider that application.

    #1) Jesus speaks of going to a place to prepare them a place which is in His Father's house.

    #2) Jesus speaks of coming to them again to receive us unto Himself to that place so that where He is now, so will we be: which is New Jerusalem which will come down from heaven after the great tribulation.

    Now although you have gone to great lengths in making the case that He was talking about the Holy Spirit, Jesus was testifying to where He is now that He will come to receive us so that where He is now, so will we be.

    A traditional Jewish marriage ceremony, the newly married couple has the bridegroom leaving the bride for a time to prepare a place for her, and when the new home is ready, he comes to take her there.

    We are married to Christ, and so this preparation to come to the wedding feast of the King is paramount for a believer to be His disciples by leaning on Him in being our Good Shepherd in helping us to continue in His words to be chosen from the many that are called to attend. That is why those with His seal are exhorted to depart from iniquity now so as to avoid being "destroyed" from being that vessel unto honour in His House into becoming that vessel unto dishonour in His House by being left behind to be cast into the bed of teh coming great tribulation.

    Of this issue, we both agree of the necessity for a believer to trust Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd to help them to continue to abide in Him and His words, and not just rest in Him as their Saviour for eternal life.

    You may not see it yet, but the warnings Jesus keeps giving to believers cannot be applied to the warning given for the great tribulation. These two seperate kinds of warnings leads to two different judgments, and thus two different harvests. There is a need to watch and be ready now, because He can come at any moment... NOW.
     

  20. King J how about instead of common sense, we use the Holy Spirit and the word of God because the wisdom of men is foolishness with God. So I will use scriptures rather than 'common sense'

    You said:
    1) If we agree that God's wrath will hit earth in the tribulation period (7 trumpets)...God's wrath hits the doers of iniquity...which Christians are not. God's people ESCAPE God's wrath. Look at every example of God's wrath in OT.


    We don't agree on that...The tribulation is over at the fifth seal and the trumpets are handed out at the seventh seal which is the day of His wrath.

    Next, you said:

    2) If we believe the anti-christ is a creation of the devil that will reign during the tribulation period, then why can't any Christian with the power of Jesus go and cast him into swine? As long as Christians and the Holy Spirit are here, how can the devil have his way? Hitler may have been inspired by demons, but he was an evil 'man'.

    We don't agree on that either...The scriptures are very clear that the 'antichrist is not just present during the tribulation, it has been the whole time and that there are 'many'

    1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    Next, you said:

    3) You say 'if Jesus is with us How can he come to fetch us'. He is God, He is omnipresent. The part of the God head that is '''physically''' not just spiritually with us, is the Holy Spirit. Do you believe in the trinity?


    We don't agree on that either...The Holy Spirit is not a 'physical presence with us. Neither is God:

    Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Jesus is the only physical manifestation of God:

    Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    When we take on the nature of the Holy Spirit, it is not a physical change but a spiritual one...in our hearts.
    Show me even one example of the 'physical' manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

    and last, you said:

    4) How will the Jews, God's chosen race get a second chance unless they see the anti-christ and the two prophets?
    Why would God send two prophets to do miracles and oppose the anti-christ when he has a couple million Christians with the power of Jesus already?[/quote]


    When He restores Israel, He will pour out the Holy Spirit on them. (Read the valley of dry bones ezekiel37)

    And He will give them pastors to teach them:

    Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
    Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
    Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
    Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.


    Remember also, their salvation comes without repentance:


    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


    The second part to that:

    4) How will the Jews, God's chosen race get a second chance unless they see the anti-christ and the two prophets?
    Why would God send two prophets to do miracles and oppose the anti-christ when he has a couple million Christians with the power of Jesus already?[/quote]

    First, they will have the power of Jesus:

    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    Second, there are some that have the seal of the Living God:

    Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    How do you define a 'Christian'?

    Now, I don't see anywhere in the two witnesses activity that they are performing miracles...only testifying and giving plagues to those who don't hearken unto their words. The miracle that I do see is when they are raptured up in the clouds:

    Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


    Hmmm...a rapture and the seventh trumpet sounds:

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Sounds kinda like another scripture that says the same thing...

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    last trumpet some being 'raised from the dead'? Interesting coincidence heh?

    There is your 'rapture theory' my friend...so I am guessing that you are you planning to be one of these witnesses that is caught up in the clouds at the last trumpet? Or are you going to be ready when He returns and be let in the gate to Jerusalem at the beginning of the thousand years when He brings our home down out of Heaven:

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
    Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

    T/C
     

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