Only going off of my understanding of predestination (I'm no expert), I agree with you. Though for the sake of learning more, I'd love for someone who does stand by predestination to perhaps help me understand better. It's certainly not a position I hold.
Does God Love Everyone?
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Only going off of my understanding of predestination (I'm no expert), I agree with you. Though for the sake of learning more, I'd love for someone who does stand by predestination to perhaps help me understand better. It's certainly not a position I hold.
I will be glad to give you any imput that I can if you would like to start up something.
Now, when you do this, please be specific. Either you reject this doctrine or you just do not know enough about it.
Well I can only reject what I know. There's a chance I am rejecting bad interpretation of it. Though it's also not consistent with my faith in Catholicism. I just like knowing and learning the truth.
I agree with you my brother, but this as are some other teaching, not a religion doctrine but a Bible one.
As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." Romans 9:13
Before I answer the question of God hated Esau, I would like to ask you a question based on this scripture.
26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26
Does God mean that you are to literally hate your family, members of your household?
Or, is there something more to this expression "hate".
JLB
If you read the rest of Chapter 9 of Romans, you'll discover that God loved Jacob and hated Esau, BEFORE the boys had done anything good or evil. It was God's sovereignty. He is the potter and we are the clay and if He decides to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor, who are we to question the sovereign work of the Lord? The passage in Luke is talking about the priority of love. If we love family more than God we are not worthly of Him.
If we love family more than God we are not worthly of Him.
But the word hate in this verse is the same word for hate used in Romans 9: 13, where is says Esau I hated.
Same word.
Yet you correctly state what this expression means in Luke 14 is to "love less" our family, over God.
This expression is used through out the old Testament as well as the new, to express exactly what you pointed out.
It doesn't mean hate in the traditional western mindset, as we use today, but rather it means to love less.
It simple denotes a stronger affection of one over the other.
Example:
30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
31 And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated , he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. Genesis 29:30-31
This is the meaning of the word used in context with Rachel and Leah as well as Jacob and Esau.
JLB
The Old Testament Hebrew word is different from the Greek NT term. The word is the strongest term for hatred in the Hebrew vocabulary, and God expresses that for the workers of iniquity and those who divide friends, etc. But even if you assign "love less" to the meaning of the NT Greek word, (and I don't agree that it always means that), you still have the problem. God loved one identical twin less than He loved the other identical twin before they were born and before either of them did anything good or evil. As a result of the disparity of this divine love, the lives of these two men become quite different.
Kurt, Very well put. I concur. Since I came to see the Doctrines of Grace, my ministry has been affected very little. I say to people, "Christ died for people just like you," rather than, "God died for you." Other than that, everything else remains the same. We still give forth the Gospel to all and we rejoice when a sinner comes to the Lord of Glory in repentance and faith.
God loved Jacob more than Esau before the foundation of the world.
God sees the end from the beginning and knew what choices they would make.
This does not alter or change the meaning of my explanation and examples from Gods word.
Example:
30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
31 And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated , he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. Genesis 29:30-31
This is the meaning of the word used in context with Rachel and Leah as well as Jacob and Esau.
JLB
I covered this in my post.
The same word that is translated from the Hebrew in Romans 9:13 is used in Luke 14:26
As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." Romans 9:13
Before I answer the question of God hated Esau, I would like to ask you a question based on this scripture.
26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26
Does God mean that you are to literally hate your family, members of your household?
Or, is there something more to this expression "hate".
JLB
Yes, granted there is more to this word "hate"
As mentioned above post # 49
The question still remains : there is disparity of divine love or there is no disparity?
Note: am not a Calvinist.
My intention is: to learn how we respond to outsiders question.
And that am on the opinion that all Christian denomination have a single basic premise: glorify God.
That is: the vegetarian question : )
To eat or not to eat meat, both are thankful to God.
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Yes, both are thankful. However one is immature in their faith. If our goal is to learn how to best answer, then we must seek to be more mature, that is to say, be more Christlike in out understanding.
The response then would be: God loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved and reconciled to Him.
JLB
But I think you're conflating Hebrew and Greek together. Language is very culturally sensitive. The Greek word MISEO can, in some contexts, mean to love less especially in hyperbolic settings, as you indicated with the Luke passage. I don't think the Hebrew word has that same connotation. For example, Ps. 97:10, "Ye who love the Lord HATE evil." Was the Psalmist saying that we are to love evil less? I don't think so!
I'm a seminary Greek teacher and as I tell my students, "Predestination is a Bible word--deal with it!." And they do, not always the way I would want. Look at Romans 8 where Paul uses the word a number of times and the context is salvation. Read Acts 13:48 and 2 Thess. 2:13. These will give you some startling insight into the whole issue.
Thanks, Jack. Indeed, I know extremely little about the subject of predestination.
26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26
Does God mean that you are to literally hate your family, members of your household?
Or, is there something more to this expression "hate".
and again -
30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
31 And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated , he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. Genesis 29:30-31
This is the meaning of the word used in context with Rachel and Leah as well as Jacob and Esau.
Here are examples from both the OT and the NT that are both used in context, that shows the word hate as meaning "love less".
Unless you can show us from Jesus's words in Luke 14 where He was commanding us to literally hate our family, then you must deal honestly that both the Old Testament and the New Testament word "hate" were conveyed in the context of "love less" by both Jesus and Paul who are both Hebrew.
JLB
Does God mean that you are to literally hate your family, members of your household?
Or, is there something more to this expression "hate".
and again -
30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
31 And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated , he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. Genesis 29:30-31
This is the meaning of the word used in context with Rachel and Leah as well as Jacob and Esau.
Here are examples from both the OT and the NT that are both used in context, that shows the word hate as meaning "love less".
Unless you can show us from Jesus's words in Luke 14 where He was commanding us to literally hate our family, then you must deal honestly that both the Old Testament and the New Testament word "hate" were conveyed in the context of "love less" by both Jesus and Paul who are both Hebrew.
JLB
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Predestined them to be conformed to the Image of His Son.
God wanted all of Adams offspring to be conformed to the image of Him who created him after His Image.
Unless you are going to suggest Adam was not elected.
JLB
If God wanted "all" of Adam's offspring to be conformed to the image of Him, than they would all be conformed to the image of Him. You'll notice in Romans 8, "...and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified , these He also glorfied" (8:30). All those who were predestinated were justified and ultimately glorifed which, as I understand it, is salvation. They are conformed to the image of his son as now being regarded as sinless. That could not involve all people without exception or you would have universal salvation.