Doctrines of Grace

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Cosmicwaffle, Sep 6, 2014.

  1. If Jesus died for the sins of every person, then nobody should go to Hell. Jesus died for his sheep, those who the Father gave him. If you believe in Jesus, you are his sheep!

    John 6:44
    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

    John 10:11
    "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

    John 10:26
    "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

    Here is a VERY good documentary if you are interested in what the Bible has to say about the doctrines of Grace.

  2. Part 2: It gets better!
  3. Part 3

    Let me know if you watched it, and what you think.
  4. 1st John 2:2 Jesus PAID the price for the sins of Everyone...

    Just because someone pays for your ticket to ride doesn't mean you Ride..... You still have to get on the bus.

    Abdicate likes this.
  5. 1 John 2:2
    2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Back then, Jews thought only they were the ones who were being saved, but everytime in the gospel you hear the whole world, or the word all, it means people from the whole world, Jews and Gentiles.

    Those who Jesus died for he always makes intercession for them. He loses not ONE of those whom the Father has given him.

    If you don't hop on the "bus", then you weren't one of his sheep.
  6. If Jesus did die for literally every single person, or the whole "world", why does Jesus say in John 17:9

    "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."

    John 6:39
    "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

    John 12:19
    So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"

    Did the Pharisees literally mean every single person? No, by the world they mean't Gentiles.

    Revelation 5:9
    9 And they sang a new song, saying:

    “You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."

    This is the meaning of all people, and the whole world.

    Jesus bought our salvation, and all those who he died for will be saved. If Jesus simply made it possible to be saved, why then did he say in John 10:28-29

    28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand."
  7. Please watch the documentary if you wish to learn more about it all. They give many more scriptures like these.
  8. Psalm 32 King James Version (KJV)
    32 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
    2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
  9. I deleted my post above because I haven’t watch the movie yet… maybe next time : )

    Reminds me of some cousins that saying why a cousin is so enthusiastic and passionate in sharing the gospel of salvation of them….

    I say of course, I think it is intrinsic to man: after hearing a good news, they like to share it....

    In the same manner that they (the cousins) who after watching a good Hollywood movie keeps on talking about it, and asking others to watch... : )
  10. Haha yeah. I am just a firm believer in the reformed doctrines of Grace. That God is sovereignly in control of his creation and the salvation of those he wrote in his book of life.

    Those who act as if free will is god of the universe deny that God can and would save everyone if he wanted. Why would God not save everyone?

    God could either :

    A. Save No one
    B. Save Some
    C. Save Everyone

    In A, his grace and mercy are not shown, and in C, his wrath and justice are not shown. But it is God's will to reveal himself by only saving a few, and leaving the rest to his judgement.

    Matthew 22:14
    "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

    I rest in God's sovereignty and the doctrine that Jesus WILL save all those that have been given for him.

    Romans 8:28-30
    28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Many great preachers and theologians hold to these views. Martin Luther's book "Bondage of the will" suggests that even though he did not know TULIP or John Calvin, he did understand and believe the things he taught.
  11. If God had NO intention of ever paying for YOUR sins.. This means Christ did NOT die for YOU.... You are FULLY OBEDIENT to God by Not accepting Christ... Since you did not express your will against God's Will - you have no sin... Thus - you have no need for Christ.

    On the other hand - If ALL sins are PAID for.. and God commands ALL to believe in Jesus for Atonement of Sin - then your own personal decision to Reject Jesus is expressing your own will against God's will.... You have sinned and you deserve punishment...

    Nope. The pharisees were NOT talking about the Gentiles.. They literally could care less what the Gentiles did.... They believed that the Gentiles were Cursed Enemies of God and that God did not care one whit about them... so... Neither did they.

    The pharisees were a relatively small sect - only a couple thousand qualified within the most strict Pharisees..... They were talking about the vast bulk of Jews within Judea - MANY did in fact accept Jesus as Messiah....

    You have to remember that after the destruction of Judea in 70 AD - ALL Jews within the entire region were either killed or enslaved.... The "Diaspora" - Jews living OUTSIDE of Judea - from that day is what makes up the bulk of todays "Jews"
  12. Nope, you don't understand. I do need christ, because without God's grace we all deserve hell. But I taught you what scripture clearly teaches, and that is that Jesus died for those chosen by God. Jesus died for his sheep out of the whole world, not for the entire world itself.

    If God wants someone saved, they will be saved, period.

    Sin comes from our hearts, but God uses it for his good purposes. This does not mean our sin is good, but that our sin is used by God. Sin still separates us from God, and we need Jesus to be right with God.

    But you don't understand, because you think our wills can resist God.

    Romans 9:19-24
    19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
  13. As we all well know... Sin is the absence of God and his presence, I want to offer you all an analogy.

    Think about the sun. It itself gives warmth and light, yet when it passes the horizon it causes only darkness and cold to remain. Because it is the sun's fault for the absence of warmth and light can we suggest that the nature of the sun is cold and dark? No, the sun itself is warm and bright, but when it is blocked from view, coldness and dark remain.

    In the same way, God certainly let's sin happen for his purposes, but he himself is not evil or sinful. God has the power and freedom to show his love or to withhold it from us for his purposes.

    Does this in any way help you understand God's sovereignty?

    I mean just think about it, if God wanted something to happen and it didn't happen then is God all-powerful?

    Job said in chapter 42:2 "I know that You can do all things,
    And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted."
  14. Again, I believe that God has a very important purpose to fulfill with this sinful world. I believe he knew the fall would happen, and even in a sense willed it to.

    I believe God is working in this world to display all of his attributes, so he can get all the glory he deserves.

    In a sinless world, would we praise God for his mercy or justice? No, we wouldn't experience those things if there was no sin. So God has a very specific purpose with sin, which is a much more comforting view than to suggest there is no reason for it.

    God allows sin so he can display his power over it.
  15. And whether we sin or believe in Jesus and pursue righteous dictates which of these attributes God will display in us.

    Will we be a vessel of mercy, or wrath?

    Either way, God is just and holy in giving us what we choose.
  16. But if you have some other theologic beliefs. So be it.

    Romans 11:34-36
    34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
  17. am commenting not necessarily what I believe in : )

    as I understand those who think letter C...

    The idea is that it is a choice, freewill.

    Seems the argument is that the unsaved choose to be unsaved.
  18. Cosmic, use some common sense, do you really believe that if John 3:16 was worded ''For God so loved a few in the world that He died for them only'' equals a good God?

    The devil wants to trip us up on this so that we will bat for him. Think about it. Is his primary goal not to discredit the cross and God's love for all?

    If I were the devil that's exactly how I would trip Christians. Who can you convert if your message is God died for a few chosen? and this all knowing God knows who He made to suffer eternally in hell?

    Remember Peter ''grasped'' a truth that God is no respecter of persons Acts 10:34. We all need to grasp that. Because our minds assume that with God 1+1=2 / Omniscience = no free will. But God is greater then that. God can be omniscient and give free will. He can do anything. He does what pleases Him. Not what we think an all powerful being should do / is limited too.

    We have to take scripture as is. John 3:16 does NOT say He died for a few chosen. He asked God to forgive those who were crucifying Him...when there was no forgiveness available?? Makes no sense.
    Abdicate likes this.
  19. 1. Because those carrying their cross are targets of the enemy / hated by everyone.
    2. Yes, God loses none. Just like I won't ever leave or lose my wife and kids. But if they choose to run away / divorce me?
    3. There is not a single use of the word 'world' in scripture that refers to His elect only.
    4. That is neither here nor there.
    5. How do you know you are one? Let's say you think you are and you find yourself in hell one day, will you be impressed with God's partiality?
    Let's say your wife and kids go to hell but you to heaven, will you trade your birth right for theirs?

    Conclusion: You and those preachers in the video's can be forgiven for believing this as God is omniscient. But it swims against the current of all scripture and defies logic / encourages madness / puts a damper on God's sacrifice for us on the cross / depressing belief / the next conclusion you will reach is that God is evil. It sounds right, but is terribly wrong.

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