Agreed.
Doctrine Matters!
- Thread starter revlynn
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Agreed.
qtld
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1 Timothy 1:5-11 "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure(ie non-evil) heart(ie spirit/inside), and of a good(ie Compassionate/Merciful) conscience, and of faith unfeigned(ie (Up-)Right faith): From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law(ie the Law of the faith) is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for(ie but for those clerics/believers who are: ) the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers(ie profaners/violators), for them that defile themselves with(ie that make themselves evil against) mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.",
2 Timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers(ie false teachers/witnesses/prophets), having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables(ie unto false testimonies/doctrines/prophecies)."
2 Timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers(ie false teachers/witnesses/prophets), having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables(ie unto false testimonies/doctrines/prophecies)."
Doctrines can kill.
For this reason, I think the basis for any belief must be love, tolerance and acceptance of other doctrines.
There's been too much bloodshed over doctrine to justify its importance over matters of love and peace.
Imo..
Blessings,
brian
For this reason, I think the basis for any belief must be love, tolerance and acceptance of other doctrines.
There's been too much bloodshed over doctrine to justify its importance over matters of love and peace.
Imo..
Blessings,
brian
That may be a very dangereous road to take Brian.
"There is a way that seems right unto man but the wages therof is death".
What is dangerous about love?
Have there ever been wars and crusades done throughout history in the name of Love?
"There is a way that seems right unto man but the wages therof is death". I completely agree. (Hence my previous post..)
Blessings,
brian
matt 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Joh 15:19 "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
Understand the Lord has not invited us to a "lovefest" with the world but has equipped us as WARRIORS knowing we battle against the powers and principalities of this world AND those they control. Some of those are members of our own families and many of them also masquerade as members of the family of Christ.
When you put on your armour do not forget to pick up and learn how to properly use the twoedged sword the Lord has given you.
Eph 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"
Love your enemies - BUT never forget that they ARE your enemies and you will need to defend yourself and your brothers and sisters in Christ against them. Those that Hate Jesus will hate you also.
OVERCOME with the truth of the love of the LORD, do not BE OVERCOME by the illusion of the love of the world.
Well, I know that there were some "Christians" who posted banners on their tanks as they passed through Iraq. The writing on their banners? "Jesus killed Mohammad."
I'm sure these "Christians" were convinced that they were "fighting the good fight."
NOT good. And NOT of the Spirit.
As I see them, the verses you quoted are talking about the division between flesh and Spirit in man. They have absolutely nothing to do with fighting with other people.
Love trumps faith and hope. It never ends, never gives up, and never fails.
Blessings,
brian
Brian,
I agree with Mistmann on this. Jesus came to seek and save the lost...not to make us love at all costs.
The coming of Jesus actually divided men simply on the statement of His divinity.
Love is wonderful and in many ways I also agree with your thinking also, but one must remember that we are in a spiritual war today and it is not pretty. Hand to hand combat with the forces of Satan has never been pretty and never will be.
I seek to love all. It is the desire of my heart and the goal in my life..........but we must also understand that there comes a time when we must STAND against the forces of evil and many times that does not include their actions. We can love the sinner, but we must STAND against the sin he committs just as God has told us to do.
Let me give you a paradox of love. The Death Penality> Thats right, the death penality. It is an act of LOVE from God so that His people will be protected against the sins, (atrosities) of those who break His Law. God said that two men having homosexualal contact would be stoned. God said that anyone having sex with an animal would be stoned. God said that if someone kills another human being he is to be stoned. IS THAT LOVE???????? YES!!! It is a manifestation of God's love in that the person guility of such crimes will not do them again thus effecting the other people around him. God's love then is protecting the innocent from further crimes against His children from someone who has already done such great harm.
Brian,
I forgot to say this on the other post but there is something you and all believers need to understand and grasp. Please do so without thinking what I am about to tell you makes me a heratic or something even worse. Ready...............
When we say or believe that the Christian church was invlved in the Crusades which killed millions of innocent people, please understand that is was NOT the Christian church doing so, BUT was the Roman Catholic Church which actually operated the Roman Empire.
It was the Roman Catholic church that taught that going to war against the "Infidels" was an act of Christian penance. If a believer was killed during a crusade, he would bypass purgatory, and be taken directly to heaven. By eliminating what might be many millennia of torture in Purgatory, many Catholics were strongly motivated to volunteer for the crusades. "After pronouncing a solemn vow, each warrior received a cross from the hands of the pope or his legates, and was thenceforth considered a soldier of the Church THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH."
I agree that God is against sin. In fact, I would say that He has already had the victory over it.
So how exactly does God overcome sin?
Jesus told us to follow Him, and He was an example for us to follow, by laying down His own Life for His "enemies." He commands us to love our enemies, not hate them. (I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine the death penalty being a form of "love.")
The Law which you quote, regarding killing people who had sex w/animals, etc., is certainly part of God's decreed commands.
But what happened to those commands when Jesus came?
"You have heard it said.... but I say.."
Jesus was giving the people a "higher" law to follow, which is the law of Love.
So while God commanded one thing in the OT, the NT brought in and replaced it with something better: Love.
Of course, the Pharisees, who knew the Law inside and out, and who were ready to condemn anyone and everyone like vipers waiting to strike, could not accept this higher law which Jesus preached. And so they nailed Him to a cross of wood.
And I think the battle we are fighting is the pride and envy of religious flesh that would control everyone and say who is condemned and who isn't. That is where the true evil lies, imo.. -Exactly where the Holy is supposed to be, is where we find the Serpent laying!
Blessings!
brian
Technically, they RCC wasn't waging a "war". Augustine established very clear guidelines for fighting a holy war, and conversion or killing infidels were not permitted. The church knew this and some money loosened some of the rules based on some pretty thin technicalities. They weren't "technically" marching on Muslim cities. They were taking pilgrimages into the Holy Land....with 50,000 of their closest friends and family, armed to "protect" themselves from any "Infidels" that might attack them as they performed the sacred rites.
Ironically, Islam at the time was having a LOT of problems holding together. It was becoming scattered with warlords fighting over territory and extremists trying to re-interpret the Quor'an a million different ways. Because of the Crusades, they banded together and unified. Some historians even believe that is why Islam has grown so much and become so popular. Had the Crusades never happened, then it may be assembled of tons of small groups fighting each other until it tore itself apart.
Ironically, Islam at the time was having a LOT of problems holding together. It was becoming scattered with warlords fighting over territory and extremists trying to re-interpret the Quor'an a million different ways. Because of the Crusades, they banded together and unified. Some historians even believe that is why Islam has grown so much and become so popular. Had the Crusades never happened, then it may be assembled of tons of small groups fighting each other until it tore itself apart.
Doctrine - means principle or policy. Therefore God gave His words in the Holy Bible as basis for His “doctrine, principle, or policy. In that case, we have to abide by what “is written.” And this is what is written:
* 2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
God therefore gives us the qualification of His “Ministers in the New testament.”
1. The qualified ministers must not just rely on the “letter” or the literal meaning of His words, for these do not lead us to eternal life.
According to Him, they “kill” not physically but spiritually.
2. The qualified ministers must wait and simply express God’s revelations of the “spiritual meaning” of the “letter” of the words.
Brian,
The first thing to understand is that not everybody who calls themselves Christian belongs to the Lord. Jesus was very clear on this when He said:-
Matt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Those in those tanks you spoke of were not DOING the will of the father but were in fact strengthening the resolve of the Islamic extremists. THAT is how Satan works, by stealth and deceptive practices. Satan is not above trying to discredit christianity by doing evil under the GUISE of Christianity which is why followers of Christ must always distinguish between those who teach and DO the ACTUAL word and command of God and those who do not. As the Apostles taught many times we must have nothing to do with those who claim to follow Christ BUT by their WORDS and WORKS do not.
Banarenth noted the same thing in the Crusades. Those that were not doing the will of the Father AIDED Islam, not Christianity.
The point I was making is that we must not confuse loving our enemies with trying to make our enemies love US. We must not abandon the Love and will of the Father (in either teaching OR works) in order to win the love and favour of those who are of this world. Jesus has made it clear that the world WILL hate us and there is nothing we can do with that. Rather that IN SPITE of that hatred our command is to NOT repay evil with evil but to OVERCOME evil with good, the righteousness and love of the Lord. Those that come to Christ will come to Christ because they love HIM and HIS teaching, not because they love US. IF we teach and follow the word and command of Jesus (and thereby raise HIM up and not ourselves) THEN will they love those who are their brothers and sisters IN CHRIST, for in HIM alone is the body held together in LOVE, and in HIS one and only doctrine.
Be careful to not misunderstand this scripture. The letter of the Law Jesus was speaking of is the Mosaic Law, which is the Law of God THROUGH Moses. The purpose of a law is to define what we must NOT do. It is of no effect UNTIL a person breaks it, and then it serves ONLY to PUNISH the lawbreaker. In the case of the Mosaic Law WILFUL (not accidental or unintentional) disobedience or disregard of it was punishable by death. No matter how WELL behaved you were, no matter how often you did NOT break the Law the Law could do nothing for you or to you UNTIL you broke it, and then it served only to impose guilt and punishment.
BUT the New Testament (agreement) that Jesus brought in was about becoming a new CREATION that has no inclination to break the Law of God that Jesus confirmed has not changed one iota. A creation that desires to walk in the ways of the Spirit, not of the flesh, as Paul so eloquently explained. A creation that is prepared to die to the flesh in order that we might live in the ways of the Spirit, THAT IS, in the ways of the elohiym (God and the Sons of God), not the ways of mankind.
Jesus did not come to abolish or CHANGE the Law, He came to CHANGE people so that by dieing to the flesh they might die to the law of the flesh (The Mosaic Law), but have life in the Spirit by being reborn as elohiym - the Sons of God. For the elohiym DESIRE to follow the ways of the Father and WELCOME the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God Himself that ENABLES them to do so. BUT we cannot then return to follow the ways of THIS world regardless of how much THIS world wants us to and promises to love us if we do.
THIS is what Jesus is teaching.
God overcame the penality of sin through the vicarious death of His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.
God does not change his principles of government. The same loyalty to righteousness is still required of all who would escape death. But because "there is none righteous, no, not one," all continue to die. The Creator's fixity of rule guarantees the unchangeableness of his designs. Even before human disobedience, the Creator knew that man would break God's law by the exercise of his moral liberty of free will. This foreknowledge led to the development of a plan of rescue which the God of love could effect without violating his own just law of condemnation. Love would express itself by providing the sacrifice, a corresponding price which alone could satisfy the righteous claims of divine justice.
God is the Giver of life. He created it, and He may take it. Death is the result of sin. God requires death–both physical death and spiritual death–as the just punishment for sin (Romans 6:23). Christians recognize the pervasive depravity which permeates the human soul. God may delegate to human governments such things as He wills to maintain societal order. He has delegated to all human government the authority to require one’s life in a certain, limited circumstance–the murder of another human being. Capital punishment is not on a par with abortion or euthanasia, for the latter involve the taking of “innocent” life, while the former is carried out in relation to those who have been duly convicted and made lengthy appeals.
When the death of a murderer then takes placve through execution, God IMO is protecting others by the removal of this one who has chosen to "murder" by choice. That to me is God's love for the rest of us in that this perpertrator will not kill another innocent indivual.
Yes of course that is correct in so far as it goes. But we cannot quote Jesus saying .........................
"You have heard it said.... but I say.."
"Jesus was giving the people a "higher" law to follow, which is the law of Love." and at the same time not quote His words from ...............
Matthew 5:17
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets; I am come not to destroy but to fulfill. For varily I say unto you till heaven and esrth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled".
Have a great day my friend.
The "doctrine" of God as regards the "letter" of His words was clearly demonstrated by Jesus Christ in the following:
* Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
For the "letter" of the word "temple," this is what we read and the end result!
* Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
* Mat 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
For "divine revelation" from the "letter" of the words of Jesus Christ, and the end result:
*Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
* Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Is not the foregoing clearly demonstrated regarding the "doctrine" of God of His words in the Holy Bible?!
But did not Jesus LITERALLY mean "destroy THIS temple (indicating His own body) and in three days I will raise it up"?
Just because the Pharisees and Scribes MISUNDERSTOOD which temple Jesus was referring to does not mean Jesus was not speaking literally about His own body.
The problem is not taking the word of the Lord too literally but that so many do not take it literally ENOUGH.
Are you aware that when Jesus said "I am not of this world" He quite literally meant He is not from the Earth? (THIS world, in the Bible, LITERALLY means this planet Earth.). Many do not understand that most of Revelation is a LITERAL description of actual events in John's future. BUT it is a literal description of what they LOOKED like through John's First Century AD eyes, not our 21st Century AD eyes.
But we could, dare I say, literally, spend days talking about where the Bible has not been taken literally, where it should have been.
Doctrine is really important for me. Though there are some churches who make doctrines out of the doctrines like when praying, others says that you should be kneel while others say you should look above. But if we go back to the bible it doesn't matter what is your style in praying. So my point here is we must know what is a doctrine in the bible so we may know also our doctrinal stand. As what the bible says in Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. We must realize that the gospel that has been given to us is not came from a man but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (see Gal 1:11-12)
Doctrines are policies or ways to followfrom what "is written" in the Holy Bible.
But the trouble is different people have different interpretations of what "is written."
This caused the division of CHRISTIANITY into sects and denominations.
Therefore, what is the TRUTH?
Let ALONE God expound on His words "through His very words," and this is what is to be regarded as "divine revelation."
Example, the very IDENTITY of Jesus Christ is foremost of these doctrines! Why do we hear people say:
* Some say, "Jesus Christ is only a man and not God."
* Others say, "Jesus Christ is only a Mighty God for there is a supreme or Almighty God."
* Still others say "Jesus Christ is the name of the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT."
* Many say, "Jesus Christ is both God and man, and He is the SECOND PERSON of the Trinity."