Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Major, Dec 19, 2014.
...Consider thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Another Christian who has committed known sin. Baker was convicted of fraud and to say he was not a Christian is an assumption that has no basis in facts. If you do not accept his testimony as a Christian...... chose someone else...say Jimmy Swaggert.
I do consider myelf and I KNOW that I am tempted and that I sin! So do YOU. So do we all!
Yes dear I certainly did. You just do not accept it.
Those verses DO NOT support "sinless Perfection".
The context of those verses is the climax to the argument begun in chapter 3:21....that is the subject of Gospel righteousness through faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus. Rom. 3:21 clearly tells us that righteousness is by faith.
By faith in Christ the penalty of sin is removed from the believer because that penalty is death. It does not mean that we never sin but that we are forgiven of sin when we commit it.
1 Corth 12:27
Obviously every believer in included into the body of Christ which is the Bride of Christ. However there is NO mention of "sinless perfection" included in that verse.
The CONTEXT of this verse is NOT "sinless perfection" but is instead found in verse 28....."So ought men to love their wives ........"as Christ loved the church.
Because of that fact, we should understand and adopt His principle in our relationships with each other within His church.
So once again we see that there are NO verse found which teach "sinless perfection" when they are properly consdidered and rightly divided.
I have heard this discussion most of my life. There are two natures Flesh, and Spirit, "Natural man and Saved Man" what ever you call them they DO NOT exist in a person at the same time. Paul was clear in Ro 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
When we are saved the old is passed away all things become new, God said "I will not remember, I will set the past as far away as east from west"
WE are new creatures in Christ, Priest of God. Yet, every knows without me saying we still struggle to be good servants of God, We are not without problems that we must deal with, But, Praise God we have an intercessor before God for us.
Rom 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
The discussion of two natures and we never truly get past the sin nature comes from several views of Total Depravity.
IMO we were made free moral agents with a free will and are morally responsible for all we do. We were made for fellowship with God, To Rule the creation of God, and to know HIM. There is no place for total depravity in understanding the bible.
There are always two groups, In CHRIST in the Spirit, Serving God, or In the FLESH
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN TWO GROUPS IT SHOULD NOT BE SO HARD TO SEE!!
I meant consider how you judge others because you could fall into the same sins or worse. It is best just to pray for your brothers and sisters in Christ. If you cannot go to the person and restore them in a spirit of meekness.....then pray for them.
I will not choose anyone for your dissection. I believe the Word and don't swim around in those waters.
Sinfless perfection or whatever terms you want to use. They mean the same.
And, the Lord expects us to maintain our body, soul and spirit blameless before Him. “I pray God your whole spirit, and soul, and body be preserved blameless until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
We are told to purify our own selves. If we do not stop sinning, we disobey the Word - the Lord. Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him.
I never said we never sin. At times we may fall. But, the Word of God does not say "When" you sin a if it is a daily thing to be expected. That is error. The Word says, "IF" you sin you have an Advocate. Some places say repent quickly. And repentance means CHANGE. When one repents they do not keep repeating the sin. They stop.
If you cannot stop sinning, there is a reason for that. 1 John 3 is quite clear.
1 John 3
6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Please do not call me "dear". Leave that for your wife or children. With all due respect I am not your "dear".
My name is Lee or you can refer to me as a sister in the Lord. Thank you.
That is a well thought out way of admitting that there is no such thing as "sinless perfection" by using ANYONE as an example.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
The word, "destroyed" does not means completely gone, or cease to exist, it means to make ineffective, to make idle, to suppress.
katargéō; contracted katargṓ, fut. katargḗsō, from katá (G2596), an intens., and argéō (G691), to be idle. To render inactive, idle, useless, ineffective,.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
This battle continues after salvation, The flesh will always be s struggle to every child of God as long as their physical body is alive. Walking in the Spirit only suppress the flesh, not causing it to cease to exist.
I do understand how important it is for you and others to want to believe that our old nature of sin was destroyed and gone forever when we became saved.
But life itself teaches us every day that it just aint so!
You use Rom. 8:2 but that verse DOES NOT confirm that the Old Nature of sin is destroyed. He says that the "Law of sin and death" is the authority that sin has over oour old nature. Then he says that the New Nature CAN NOT BREAK THE SHACKLES of the old nature at all.
Then you quote Romans 8:5 but here again you have misstated the understanding that verse.
"They that are after the flesh" describes the lost man, not a saved man.
Paul does the same thing in Ephesisans 2:1-3.......
"And you hath he quicked who were dead in sins and trespasses...........and were by nature the children of wrath even as others.
That is the condition of all people until we are saved. I know that it is humiliating to accept but it is true that the child of God retains his Old Adamic nature. It means defeat and death to live by the flesh and no child of God can be happy living for the things of the flesh.
Then Romans 8:34 actually tells us that God's elect are justified sinners. Christ has removed all condemnation and we as believers are secure in Christ because of the work He has done for us. HOWEVER......because we live with "freedom of choice" even after salvation, we are prone to sin and sin because we are sinners. Sinners saved by the grace of God but while still living in bodies of flesh we will continue to make wrong choices.
Then you said..........."There is no place for total depravity in understanding the bible".
Simply not true.
"We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment".
Do you believe that is in the Bible.?????
The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” in Jeremiah 17:9.
Do you believe that is found in the Bible????
Is there another word or phrase that you like to use which explains the meaning of those verses?
The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin in Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, & Ephesians 2:1-5.
The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” in Ephesians 2:5, he is held captive by a love for sin in John 3:19; John 8:34 so that he will not seek God as seen in Romans 3:10-11.
WHY???? Because he loves the darkness as John 3:19 tells.and does not understand the things of God from 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness which is from Romans 1:18 and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men Proverbs 14:12 so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness from 1 Corinthians 1:18 and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” as Paul tells us in Romans 8:7.
Then you use Rom. 1:22-25 I guess as a basis for you promoting "sinless perfection", HOWEVR those verses have nothing to do with a saved man who committs sin. Paul there is speaking to the UNSAVED man who has rejected the revelation of God in Christ Jesus and explanes the OLD nature of sin.
You reject the Bible doctrine of the "Total Depravity" of man but then quote Romans 1:25. That is very strage because the statement from Paul there is that the lost man turned from God to Satan, the author of the lie of idolatry and that is idolatry which led to the lowest depths of moral degradation.
Our EXAMPLE is always Jesus. He was the first New Creature of many brethren. It is He who said be ye holy for I am holy. Be ye perfect as I am perfect. So, as He is so are we in this world.
I believe the Word of God. I do not look at the fallen and judge them. I take my instruction and strength from the Word of God. It is the Word that tells us we are no longer held captive to sin, and as like Jesus, so am I. I am quite capable of obeying the Father and we are all quite capable of obeying Him all of the time in all things if we choose to do so. That is if the Spirit of God is indwelling in you. The Word says to purify yourself and maintain your body, soul and spirit holy before our Lord onto His coming!
I will not bow down to a weak and beggarly teaching that says we are all weak and sinners and everyone sins all the time. That's just not God. I have learned and taught over 25 years to rightly divide the Word and what you teach is nothing new, it is just not the truth.
I agree. And it is just difficult why people who are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit can believe they are in so much bondage.
Galations 5: 5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Amen. It is clear that there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8: 1-4
Why some people feel the need to try and put themselves back under the Law of Sin and Death is beyond me. Of course there still is a Law of Sin and Death and those who have not been delivered and saved are still under that bondage and the old man. But not so for a true son of God.
It saddens me to know that you have spent so much time on a false doctrine. The major error in the teaching of sinless perfection is that it thought to be a state that can be entered into by some sort of experience and maintained from that time without sin; or, as many teach, without conscious sin. As we have seen time and time again there is no Bible doctrine of a state of sinless perfection for the believer.
The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness. Just the idea makes me smile.
Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.
To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.
I am quite sure that nothing I say will change your mind and in fact you have said that yourself and I am not trying to do that. My concern is with those who read our comments, new Christians, and make no comments of their own. I do not want this false teaching to go unchallenged so as those good people will get the idea that no response means agreement.
I call my real sister dear! To me it has always been a term of endearment. But......as you wish.
Just dropped in to this topic, and don't intend to wade through 16 pages of comments, but I'd like to say this re. the current page:
I like you guys (generic "guys", not just males), so I don't want to take sides. I disagree with both "sinless perfection" and "Calvinism", the latter of which I put in quotes because if you ask 50 Calvinists to define their beliefs, you'll get 54 different answers and be accused of "misunderstanding the teaching". I've decided instead to stop debating "Calvinism" and just ask the particular individual I'm talking to at the moment what they believe. And I do think such things can be discussed as long as neither side considers the other side defective in some way just for disagreeing. And that's what I like about the rules here.
Anyway, I think what threads like this show is that the basic tenets of each person's convictions can have a wide-ranging effect upon how they view every other subject. So until we deal with the underlying principles, agreement will never be reached on the secondary ones. Just an observation.