Doctrinal Authority

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Okay, so when a saved man desires sin (i.e., is tempted), how do we explain that?
When a saved man desires sin, it pretty much means you are walking in the flesh and not obeying the Lord. I means your desires are misplaced because your soul is desiring things that the Lord hates. When you get back to walking in the Spirit you know you are pleasing the Father because you are obeying Him and you want to stay holy and not get back in the mess of the world. You know what I mean? When you are walking in the Spirit you DO NOT DESIRE SIN. Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. We have the ability to choose righteousness and obey the father.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him..
Phillipians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

And unsaved man does not have the ability to please the Father and obey Him. The sin nature holds him captive to the spirit of iniquity and the Law of sin and death.
 
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Okay, so when a saved man desires sin (i.e., is tempted), how do we explain that?
When a saved man desires sin, it pretty much means you are walking in the flesh and not obeying the Lord. I means your desires are misplaced because your soul is desiring things that the Lord hates. When you get back to walking in the Spirit you know you are pleasing the Father because you are obeying Him and you want to stay holy and not get back in the mess of the world. You know what I mean? When you are walking in the Spirit you DO NOT DESIRE SIN. Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. We have the ability to choose righteousness and obey the father.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him..
Phillipians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

And unsaved man does not have the ability to please the Father and obey Him. The sin nature holds him captive to the spirit of iniquity and the Law of sin and death.
 
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When a saved man desires sin, it pretty much means you are walking in the flesh and not obeying the Lord. I means your desires are misplaced because your soul is desiring things that the Lord hates. When you get back to walking in the Spirit you know you are pleasing the Father because you are obeying Him and you want to stay holy and not get back in the mess of the world. You know what I mean?

I think all who experience forgiveness want to "stay holy and not get back in the mess of the world," but still experience temptation. I mean, you said that God still allows us to experience temptation, right? I think when people refer to "two natures," this conflict between wanting to "not get back in the mess of the world" and the temptation they experience is what they are referring to.

Or let me put it this way: if I talked about "two natures," that's what I would be referring to.

Would your argument be that I believe something that's not true, or that I'm using the wrong word to describe a belief that is true?
 
I think all who experience forgiveness want to "stay holy and not get back in the mess of the world," but still experience temptation. I mean, you said that God still allows us to experience temptation, right? I think when people refer to "two natures," this conflict between wanting to "not get back in the mess of the world" and the temptation they experience is what they are referring to.

Or let me put it this way: if I talked about "two natures," that's what I would be referring to.

Would your argument be that I believe something that's not true, or that I'm using the wrong word to describe a belief that is true?
It depends upon what you really believe. Do you believe you are held captive by your body and its members and still under the Law of Sin and death? Do you believe the Old Man is still alive in the New Man and shares residence with the Holy Spirit?
 
It depends upon what you really believe. Do you believe you are held captive by your body and its members and still under the Law of Sin and death? Do you believe the Old Man is still alive in the New Man and shares residence with the Holy Spirit?

I don't know what those things mean to you. I believe that I am saved, but still sometimes tempted, and the power to overcome temptation comes from Christ and not myself.

Further, if I do choose to sin, that does not indicate the loss of my salvation, or that I never was truly saved, only that I must now be "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before."

If I say that when I am tempted, I believe that temptation comes from me (i.e., James 1:14), would you say that means I believe that "the Old Man is still alive in the New Man and shares residence with the Holy Spirit"?
 
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I don't know what those things mean to you. I believe that I am saved, but still sometimes tempted, and the power to overcome temptation comes from Christ and not myself.

If I say that when I am tempted, I believe that temptation comes from me (i.e., James 1:14), would you say that means I believe that "the Old Man is still alive in the New Man and shares residence with the Holy Spirit"?
You see brother, what I am saying is do you believe you are powerless to obey God because of your flesh or as some people say, "I couldn't help it the devil made me do it". Or, I cannot control my flesh and can't help myself. ... You know what I mean?
 
You see brother, what I am saying is do you believe you are powerless to obey God because of your flesh or as some people say, "I couldn't help it the devil made me do it". Or, I cannot control my flesh and can't help myself.

Lol, absolutely not. I've never heard of anyone mean that when they refer to "two natures."
 
What I mean was that when you are walking in the Spirit, you cannot sin and gratify flesh.
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Galations 5:16
Walking in the Spirit means obeying God all the time in all things. Of course there will be times of crucifying or mortifying the flesh in order to stay in the Spirit. We can always walk in the Spirit if we obey the Father in all things, because He has already endured the world and its temptations. He is our helper and our strength.

Hebrews 2:18
Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

Leemg, just because one is walking in the Spirit does not mean there will be no struggle against sin. Jesus struggled against sin, and so do all Christians in this life.
 
Lol, absolutely not. I've never heard of anyone mean that when they refer to "two natures."
Well I have. It is a common cop out and excuse used in the body of Christ to make it seem okay to sin. If you can blame it on the body or the devil, then you feel you are not accountable. If they do not walk in the truth, they will be held accountable.
 
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I think all who experience forgiveness want to "stay holy and not get back in the mess of the world," but still experience temptation. I mean, you said that God still allows us to experience temptation, right? I think when people refer to "two natures," this conflict between wanting to "not get back in the mess of the world" and the temptation they experience is what they are referring to.

Or let me put it this way: if I talked about "two natures," that's what I would be referring to.

Would your argument be that I believe something that's not true, or that I'm using the wrong word to describe a belief that is true?
Yes we experience temptation. Temptation is for our proving. The meaning of temptation (peirasmos) is simply to test or prove. The Lord uses it in raising us.

I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable [rational or logical] service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed [transfigured] by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. -- Romans 12: 1, 2
 
I don't know what those things mean to you. I believe that I am saved, but still sometimes tempted, and the power to overcome temptation comes from Christ and not myself.

Further, if I do choose to sin, that does not indicate the loss of my salvation, or that I never was truly saved, only that I must now be "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before."

If I say that when I am tempted, I believe that temptation comes from me (i.e., James 1:14), would you say that means I believe that "the Old Man is still alive in the New Man and shares residence with the Holy Spirit"?

Saints can be tempted by the devil. The Lord will allow that. We also can allow our minds to think on things that are not acceptable onto God and instead of casting those thoughts down, we will nurture and embrace them which brings forth sin. We create our own sin when we do not obey God.

When we choose to sin we have an advocate with the Father, the Lord Jesus. We are commanded to repent and turn away from sin and keep our temples holy and walk in the mind of Christ.
 
Yes we experience temptation. Temptation is for our proving. The meaning of temptation (peirasmos) is simply to test or prove. The Lord uses it in raising us.

But, the Lord doesn't actually tempt us, right? Temptation comes from within us?

James 1
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.
 
Leemg, just because one is walking in the Spirit does not mean there will be no struggle against sin. Jesus struggled against sin, and so do all Christians in this life.
I disagree, plus you need to stop saying that Jesus struggled with sin as if it was a regular thing. That is not true. The only place Jesus struggled was just before He was crucified and that was not because He had sinful desires or wanted something in the world, its because He did not want to be separated from His Father at the time of His death and 'thought' about wanting His Father to change His will or come up with another plan. But He said, your will, not mine. He was a living sacrifice just as we are called to be.

He is our example in all things.

The Word says: If you walk in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lust of flesh ...that is what Jesus did and we are commanded to do the same. It says IF you walk in the Spirit.....
So I say, walk in the Spirit and you will not be out there struggling because Jesus has already overcome the world and the Spirit strengthens you and eliminates all this struggle you are talking about. When you walk in the Spirit you are walking in the peace, joy and righteousness of the kingdom. Not some war and struggle! Jesus did not struggle to remain holy contrary to what you are insinuating.
 
But, the Lord doesn't actually tempt us, right? Temptation comes from within us?

James 1
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Right. The Lord doesn't tempt us. He uses temptations to prove us. He will allow temptations just to show you yourself. He already knows what you will do before you ever do it. He wants you to see the truth about yourself so you will change.

When the soul decides its going to do what it wants and sin against the Father, the fleshy body just does what its told. It's the soul that will stand before God. This old fleshy body will go back to the dust.
 
When we choose to sin we have an advocate with the Father, the Lord Jesus. We are commanded to repent and turn away from sin and keep our temples holy and walk in the mind of Christ.

I think we're basically on the same page with most things we're talking about here. And I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find anyone you're talking with on this thread who would disagree with the above statement.

I'm just going to roll with my previous conclusion that this is mostly a disagreement over terminology/vocabulary more than actual significant doctrinal differences. And even if you don't fully agree with that, I hope you can understand what I mean by it.

Also for future discussions you may have (and I really don't mean to overemphasize the point, so I apologize if it comes across that way), I might suggest that most of the time, when people talk about "two natures," they are probably (in my experience, anyway) just trying to describe the conflict between temptation and the desire for holiness, not trying to give themselves permission to sin. (For example, some people try to use that Jesus is our advocate to give themselves permission to sin, but that's not what it means at all).
 
I disagree, plus you need to stop saying that Jesus struggled with sin as if it was a regular thing. That is not true. The only place Jesus struggled was just before He was crucified and that was not because He had sinful desires or wanted something in the world, its because He did not want to be separated from His Father at the time of His death and 'thought' about wanting His Father to change His will or come up with another plan. But He said, your will, not mine. He was a living sacrifice just as we are called to be.

He is our example in all things.

The Word says: If you walk in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lust of flesh ...that is what Jesus did and we are commanded to do the same. It says IF you walk in the Spirit.....
So I say, walk in the Spirit and you will not be out there struggling because Jesus has already overcome the world and the Spirit strengthens you and eliminates all this struggle you are talking about. When you walk in the Spirit you are walking in the peace, joy and righteousness of the kingdom. Not some war and struggle! Jesus did not struggle to remain holy contrary to what you are insinuating.

I don't think you will get all the Apostles to agree to your conclusion, as they all struggled against sin. None of them sailed through life on a bed of roses. It makes no difference weather the sins of the flesh in which we are surrounded in or the powers of darkness we are wrestling with which are trying to tempt us to sin, there will always be a struggle against sin as long as this world is the way it is. I think you seem to think just because we have the victory over sin because of what Jesus did for us that we do not struggle against it. We are the ones resisting by the power of God in us. This is not done for us automatically.

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Heb_12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
 
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I think we're basically on the same page with most things we're talking about here. And I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find anyone you're talking with on this thread who would disagree with the above statement.

I'm just going to roll with my previous conclusion that this is mostly a disagreement over terminology/vocabulary more than actual significant doctrinal differences. And even if you don't fully agree with that, I hope you can understand what I mean by it.

Also for future discussions you may have (and I really don't mean to overemphasize the point, so I apologize if it comes across that way), I might suggest that most of the time, when people talk about "two natures," they are probably (in my experience, anyway) just trying to describe the conflict between temptation and the desire for holiness, not trying to give themselves permission to sin. (For example, some people try to use that Jesus is our advocate to give themselves permission to sin, but that's not what it means at all).
Well brother, I work with over 20 churches in our ministry (where the Lord planted me) with people coming out of other churches looking for truth. Most come in held bound by their Dual Nature Doctrine they pick up from churches they have left. This doctrine has done more damage to the church/body of Christ then you can believe. They come in bound by what they believe to be the truth but defeated and discouraged. When they do learn the truth of who they really are in Christ, they are set free and become powerful preachers and holy saints. No, I won't stop dealing with this Dual Nature Heresy. Why? Because the truth sets people free. It may not mean anything to you, but that's not up to me because it is the Lord who gives the revelation and understanding and it is He who gives the increase. God bless you brother in your walk with the Lord.
 
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I constantly hear how this, that ,and the other one, is "creating saints". But when you actually meet these supposed saints they are no better than the average pagan. Our churches all full to the rafters with people who make the right "christian noises", but when it comes down to actual faith and virtue, are terribly lacking.
 
No, I won't stop dealing with this Dual Nature Heresy.

I guess I'm not asking you to "stop dealing with this Dual Nature Heresy," so much as to just ask what people mean then they say "two natures" first...

Like, you asked me, "You see brother, what I am saying is do you believe you are powerless to obey God because of your flesh or as some people say, "I couldn't help it the devil made me do it". Or, I cannot control my flesh and can't help myself."
So I'm thinking, it might be easier for you if you just opened with that, so then you know right away if someone believes something that isn't true, or if they're just using terminology that you don't think accurately reflects their actual belief... just a suggestion:)

Looking back, I realize there are questions I could have asked to be more direct as well. Hopefully, that's a lesson in communication for both of us. Peace!
 
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