Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by epistemaniac, Dec 8, 2007.
Do you believe in predestination?
I believe God gave us a choice; free will.
I do believe he knows our destiny because he knows the future but...
I believe the future he knows is the one he allowed us to choose.
I don't believe in predestination. I believe in choice and free will. I look at it more like a choose your own adventure book (only on a larger scale)...... we make the choice, but God knows how all those choices will turn out. He knows before we ever make the choice. He would like for us to make the right choices, but we don't always do that. It is his will that we go the right direction, but we are still free to go the wrong one and he knows already how this will turn out for us.
Until I studied this subject I hadn't seem it though I had read copver to cover some half a dozen times previously.
Scripture seems to indicate He predestines us according to our heart which He knows from the beggining so yes I cannot help but believe it. He sees our heart will turn to Him and He sets things in place to bring His will to fruition in our lives.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This can indeed cut both ways as scripture seems to indicate Judas was (pre) destined to betray Jesus:
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Judas was fulfilling phopecy thru his betrayal and the Word of god foes not return void.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
The scriptures are full of such examples, God makes some vessels for honor and some for dishonor but I suspect that even these vessels have been foreknown and plans made accordingly.
yes this is just my humble opinion.
I didn;t know there were so many verses on this subject... It confirms however what I already believed but now I have the proof...
epistemaniac remember our Father is not confined by time...
He knows the future, as well as moves in it...
The belief of predestination has arisen from one particular verse:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated (proorizō) us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated (proorizō) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
There, it is understood by most, but not all, that the predestination, is not for each individual, but rather for a place of blessing destined to be filled by whoever happen to accept the calling of God.
God choses whom He calls,
but it is for the ones that hears to respond.
That is the law of free will.
As brother Boanerges pointed out, some individuals seem to have been predestined, such people being a fondamental key to the working of God's plan to bring salvation to His creation. Not everyone is.
To emphasise that what was predestined is a blessing rather than an individual persons, 1Corinthians 2:7 reads:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before (predestined - proorizō) the world unto our glory.
Furthermore, if any individual have been blessed by having been predestined by the Almighty, it is for one single reason, and just the one:
For His glorification.
The belief of predestination has recently increased in popularity, and it is thought by some that they have received this blessing, indeed... that all Christians might also have. To these I ask, and I say with all fully due respect, as a brother in Christ, and a humble servant:
By what evidence in your active life would you describe yourself as predestined by our Creator to the glorification of Himself, as a fondamental key to the working of God's plan to bring salvation to His creation, and what substantiation would you have in asserting your lack of free will in following the calling of God?
I am interested in that subject, and wish to offend no one, but desire to be enlightened.
What does "predestinate" mean ?
Thanks for that Sylv.
My personal opinion ( and it is only that) is that the whole key is the " those He foreknew" and I believe that it is on this basis we are chosen. Many are called but few are chosen: He paid for all but not all will come- He knows the hearts that will be Him and based on that they are chosen. Again my opinion but it does seem to blend free will and predestination rather well. Like you I am looking to learn more. Blessings, your brother Larry.
Vines Expository Dictionart of the New Testament:
proorizo (G4309): see DETERMINE.
Note: This verb is to be distinguished from proginosko, "to foreknow"; the latter has special reference to the persons foreknown by God; proorizo has special reference to that to which the subjects of His foreknowledge are "predestinated." see FOREKNOW, A and B.
Vines Expository Dictionart of the New Testament:
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.
He foreknew us while we were yet in the womb.
Of course predestination is true... He's God - He knows EVERYTHING. Why wouldn't He know what's going to happen in the future.
it seems that anyone who wants to be a biblical Christian MUST believe in predestination. After all, "predestinate" is a biblical word, as Boanerges has shown. And the idea is found in far more places then in one verse, so the idea is present in many scriptures that do not use the word "predestinate", but uses other words like election, ordain, foreordained etc.
Foreordination is explicitly stated in Scripture.
Acts 4:27, 28: For of a truth in this city against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel foreordained to come to pass.
Ephesians 1:5: Having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
Ephesians 1:11: In whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His will.
Romans 8:29, 30: For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
1 Corinthians 2:7: But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory.
Acts 2:23: Him (Jesus) being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hands of lawless men did crucify and slay.
Acts 13:48: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Romans 9:23: That He might make known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory.
Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.
In my research, here are a few other items that seemed pertinent...
"The Vocabulary of Predestination. Paul uses the verb important five times (Rom 8:29, 30; 1 Cor 2:7; Eph 1:5, 11) with the basic meaning of "determine beforehand" or "predetermine." ... Proginōskō also has strong predestinarian overtones and is used by Paul in Romans 8:29 and 11:2. It has been suggested by some that proorizō and proginōskō are virtually synonymous terms —Dictionary of Paul and His Letters
Hodge has well remarked that, "rightly understood, this doctrine (1.) exalts the majesty and absolute sovereignty of God, while it illustrates the riches of his free grace and his just displeasure with sin. (2.) It enforces upon us the essential truth that salvation is entirely of grace. That no one can either complain if passed over, or boast himself if saved. (3.) It brings the inquirer to absolute self-despair and the cordial embrace of the free offer of Christ. (4.) In the case of the believer who has the witness in himself, this doctrine at once deepens his humility and elevates his confidence to the full assurance of hope" (Outlines).
—Easton's Illustrated Dictionary
לצערנו, לא נמצאו תוצאות הגדרות עבור: blessings, Ken
God’s purposes in grace directed toward those whom He will ultimately save to the uttermost.
The word “predestine” as a verb with God as its subject is used six times in the NT (Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29, 30; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11). The English word comes from the Latin praedestino, which is used in the Vulgate to translate the Greek word proorizo, which means essentially, “to decide upon beforehand.” Other words convey a similar idea: to determine, to elect, to foreknow. (“Election” and “Foreknowledge” are treated as separate articles in this volume.)
Major Texts In both Rom. 8 and Eph. 1 Paul makes strong claims about the priority of God’s grace in salvation. “For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers” (Rom. 8:29 HCSB). The Father determined that He would fashion those whom He foreknew into the image of Christ. He predestined them fully sanctified. To make clear just how this predestination fits into God’s overall plan of salvation, Paul then lists a sort of “chain of grace”: “And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified” (v. 30 HCSB). In each link in the chain, God is the one acting, and persons are the objects of the action. God foreknew persons, not, incidentally, something about those persons, i.e., that they would believe; rather He foreknew the persons themselves. The ones He foreknew are the same ones He predestined, and the same ones He called, and the same ones He justified, and the same ones He glorified. There is no break in the link at any point. That is, there is no possibility that someone initially predestined would fail to be finally glorified. In this Paul is in full agreement with Jesus, who in John 6:37-40 makes clear that all of the ones given to Him by the Father (predestination) will believe on Him and will finally be raised up on the last day (glorification). None will fail to be saved to the uttermost.
In Eph. 1:3-6,11 Paul takes up the issue of predestination again. Here he makes several points that are easily seen in the text. He uses both the term “predestine” and the term “chosen” (eklegomai) here, in a synonymous fashion. First, in verse 4 he notes that God chose “us” (believers) before the foundation of the world. Second, Paul says this election was “in Him” (Christ). Third, this election has the goal “to be holy and blameless in His sight.” Fourth, He predestined us “in love” (vv. 4-5). Fifth, this predestination was unto our adoption as children. Sixth, the predestining was “according to His favor and will” (v. 5 HCSB). Seventh, it causes us to praise “His glorious grace” (v. 6). In verse 11 the apostle reemphasizes one or two points he made in the earlier verses: “In Him we were also made His inheritance, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will.” Here Paul links believers’ predestination with their being adopted children (hence, the inheritance), and he notes again that this election was done according to God’s own purposes, who does everything in accordance with His own will. These are strong statements to the effect that God is a gracious God and that the only hope anyone has in this world is that God would bestow that grace on him.
Two final texts use the word proorizo. In 1 Cor. 2:7 Paul tells his readers that God “predestined” the mystery of His hidden wisdom. This mystery is God’s purpose in salvation through Christ, which is given to both Jew and Gentile, based on God’s grace and received through faith alone (cp. 1 Cor. 2:1; 4:7; Rom. 11:25; 16:25; Eph. 1:9; 3:3,4,9; 6:19-20; Col. 1:25,27; 2:2; 4:3). Here Paul tells us that God has predestined Christ and His atoning work as the only hope for salvation. In Acts 4:27-28 the Jerusalem church prays, “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place” (HCSB). These believers are affirming that wicked men were used by God to carry out His plan of salvation, for by crucifying Jesus, they were putting into action the predestined plan of God.
The reader of Scripture ought not to be surprised that it presents a God who is truly sovereign and powerful. His plans will always be fulfilled (Ps. 33:10-11; Job 9:12; Dan. 4:35). He is in control of all of history so that even minor details are part of His work (Prov. 21:1; 16:1,9,33). Nothing can prevent the fulfillment of His predictions (Isa. 14:24-27; 44:24-45; Prov. 19:21).
Theological Considerations Theologically this teaching presents a challenge for some Christians. Along with these passages which emphasize God’s priority in grace, there are many texts which affirm the importance of repentance and faith (Rom. 10:9-14; Acts 2:38), and the need of the sinner to “come” to Christ (Rev. 22:17). Though the concept of predestination seems to conflict with the responsibility of the individual to answer the Gospel call, the two must be compatible, since the same inspired teachers in Scripture emphasize both. Paul can say that Christians are predestined by God, and yet on the next page or so urge, “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. Now the Scripture says, ‘No one who believes on Him will be put to shame,’ for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him. For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved’” (Rom. 10:9-13 HCSB). He who wrote that we are predestined according to the good pleasure of God’s will, a few sentences later noted, “For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift” (Eph. 2:8 HCSB). For Jesus and Paul the two ideas are complementary, not contradictory (cp. John 10:25-30).
Various attempts have been made to “reconcile” God’s sovereignty in predestination with the human response. Some have claimed that God predestines believers based on His foreknowledge of who will one day believe the gospel. The problem is that no text teaches this. The passage in Rom. 8:29 does not say, “Whom He foreknew would believe, these He predestined to salvation.” As noted earlier, the word “foreknew” refers to the people whom God foreknew, not something about those people (that they would one day believe). In addition, Eph. 1:11 makes clear that predestination is not based on something God sees in those persons. That is, it is not based on foreseen works, foreseen faith, foreseen perseverance, or anything else. It says predestination is based on God’s purposes, though it does not specify just what that might mean. On the other end of the spectrum, some have argued that God began by planning to save some, then reprobate others, to His own glory, and then set about to create the world in order to make that happen. Both of these “solutions” to the logical difficulty share something in common—they are philosophical solutions, not based on sound study of the text.
It is important to adhere to the Bible and its teachings on this subject. It says this about predestination: God predestined persons out of His love to adoption in Christ before the world was made that those persons might become holy and blameless, conformed to the image of Christ, that they might be about the task of praising Him for His grace and serving Him out of gratitude. He did this not based on anything He saw in them, but according to His own purposes, unknown to human wisdom, so that a great multitude might be in His eternal kingdom (Rom. 8:29-30; Eph. 1:3-6,11). God planned this redemption through the preordained work of Christ on Calvary, whom the Father determined to have crucified from before time. Though it was His will for Christ to be so killed, those who killed Him did it of their own free and wicked purposes, not constrained by God, and so are culpable before Him for their crime (Acts 4:28; 2:22-23; Rev. 13:8). We also know that the God who predestines also sends out His laborers into the harvest to carry out His purposes in mission. There is not one iota of reason for the church to grow slack in evangelism, for without one preaching to them, sinners will never be saved. It is the church’s task to testify to the truth and believe that the Lord will open the hearts of unbelievers (Acts 16:14), so as in the case of the Gentiles who heard Paul and Barnabas, “all who had been appointed to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48 HCSB).
Though Christians today may not be able to understand how all of that works, they can affirm it as true, and they certainly must obey the call of God to the work of ministry.
—Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary
No, i believe everyone has the ability to make choices, and those choices will shape your future.
Great info and well supported with facts Ken ! Thanks I really enjoyed that!
That is a very strong statement~
I am quite sure no disrespect was intended towards anyone.
It is a strong statment but it is also true- predestination is refered to multiple times in scripture. God would not have told us about it if it were not so. This discussion must then not be about if it is true ( for His Word always is) but must be about our understanding of the subject.
I believe in predestination. In fact I am such a firm believer in what I call "predetermination mixed with free will" that you really can't change my opinion on it. So it is almost not even worth posting... lol
however, believe in such is hardly foundational theology.