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Do We Love God?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by surrendersacrifice, Jul 2, 2012.

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  1. Jesus commands us to love one another as he has loved us (John 13:34). He commands us to offer the other cheek if anyone strikes us on one; to give our cloak as well if anyone would sue us and take our coat; and to go two miles if any one forces us to go one mile. He commands us to give to everyone that asks for something; and if someone takes what is ours, to not ask it back. He commands us love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. He also commands us to be merciful just as He is merciful to us (Matthew 5:38-48; Luke 6:27-36). He reminds us that, in order to bear fruit we must die to our self (John 12:24).
    Jesus practiced what he preached in the following ways. He was wounded for our transgressions, was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth (Isaiah 53: 5 &7). Furthermore, while carrying his cross he was concerned about the suffering that was to come to the people of Jerusalem, rather than his own suffering. (Luke23:28). In addition, while he was dying on the cross he asked his Father to forgive his executioners (Luke 23:34) ". If we love him we would keep his commandments (John 14:15) by imitating him in our thoughts words and actions.
  2. If we dont love those created in the image of God, how can we love God?
    Major likes this.
  3. ....but we are not to give or show WORSHIP/DEVOTIONAL LOVE ("PERFECT LOVE", 1 John 4:18) to anyone but GOD.

    1 John 4:18...(God is a REWARDER, not a punisher, Hebrews 11:6,....criminals shall also receive THEIR "reward" for criminal deeds).

    ....God does not 'crush'/torment (PUNISH) those who love Him.

    "perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love".

    Few believers truly understand 1 John 4:18 because....

    1) they can't/won't stop FEARING God (we've always been taught and encouraged to FEAR God,....AND we don't mind just blindly going along with that teaching).

    ........but why do believers resent and fear His reproach when God decides to teach us the error of our way??????.

    ....perhaps because we LIKE to do fleshly things (double check your spirit).

    .....oh yes! scripture continuously says that we should fear God....

    ......(NO, it doesn't!)......UNBELIEVERS should be afraid of not having God in their life (and become aware of their need for Him), REMEMBER, the fear of God is only THE BEGINNING of wisdom, but once we come to know God, our love should become "PERFECT".

    My ONLY attitude towards my dad was LOVE (I was always aware that his loving correction was meant to teach me the error of my way).

    We can love our loved ones and friends, but not with PERFECT LOVE (worshipful/devotional love), perfect love should ONLY be given to 'THE DIVINE'.

    'Fearing God' is taught to us by the modern day moneychangers so they can keep us in FEAR and can control us for their glory (and so we keep giving them MONEY,....they are "moneychangers"). It is taught so that "fear" becomes a routine ("rote") in everything that we do, think, and say.

    Isaiah 29:13
    "and their fear of me is a commandment of men".

    .....BUT,...you do what pleases your heart. If you want to fear God while also loving Him, go ahead and do as you think you should (loving while also FEARING Him is not logical or possible,...either/or). Another added bonus will be that you are complying WITH SCRIPTURE AS TAUGHT.....(WHOOPEE!)..........BUT, if you are the kind of person that absolutely INSISTS on ONLY LOVING HIM rightly/properly, then you will be giving God PERFECT love........(maybe you're not picky, maybe you just don't have enough courage or conviction in your heart).

    ...but don't feel OBLIGATED (it's YOUR soul), but also, if you need to BE CONVINCED/TOLD to love Him perfectly, well, maybe you just don't have it in your heart after all. In scripture, Jesus never CONVINCES or pleads with ANYONE to LOVE Him.

    The world is cold-hearted about GOD and just doesn't get it. Devotion/worship is all about loving HIM (not loving each other as devotion)......."For God is not so unjust....." (Hebrews 6:10).

    The Lord will not forget/disregard all of the self-effort deeds of righteousness (works) that we've done, nor will He overlook all of the love that we showed TO EACH OTHER AS "WORSHIP" (even though it is "CORBAN" and APOSTASY)......"FOR GOD IS NOT SO UNJUST" as to do that.

    Hebrews 6:10
    "For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints".
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=for God is not so unjust&t=RSV&sf=5

    We are to love other people ONLY as much as we LOVE OURSELVES (but what sane and emotionally stable person goes around kissing themselves and showering themselves with gifts?).

    When we decide to give help/assistance to other people, we should be "giving" VOLUNTARILY, WILLINGLY, and "CHEERFULLY", NOT GRUDGINGLY.....for "GOD LOVES A CHEERFUL GIVER"....

    2 Corinthians 9:7
    "Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver".
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=God loves a cheerful giver&t=RSV&sf=5

    It's your choice whether or not to love Him with pure PERFECT LOVE and stop resenting His reproach.

    SHOW no partiality" (special treatment,....."SHOW") as a means of "FAITH"...James 2:1 and James 2:9.

    All verses are from the RSV.
  4. Moderator's note: Do you remember when you were in grade school and a teacher caught you running in the halls? Remember how she made you go back to your starting point and walk? That's basically what I'm doing here and in some other threads. In other words, let's all go back to the point of post #...........Woah! All the way back to #3! Let's all smooth our ruffled feathers, focus on the issues, and approach them with a calm demeanor. To that end, I am going to delete everything after #3 in this thread. The thread will remain open so all interested parties can continue the discussion. Of the alternatives available to me, I think this is the best option here.

    Going forward, let's focus on the pertinent issues and not become entangled in personality clashes. We are not all going to agree on things - Biblical interpretations, applications of Biblical understanding in practice, personal values, etc. We can learn from our differences as the questions raised help us to examine our own beliefs. Dealing with questions doesn't mean we necessarily change our minds, but by examining the questions we form a firmer foundation for the beliefs we come away with, whether they be modified or remain unchanged.

    How does that big ol' bass get to be so big? By not rising to the bait. This does two things. The bass doesn't get caught, and the fisherman must refine his or her techniques if they are to have any hope of piscene interest. Let's switch to another analogy and approach our interaction, particularly when dealing with controversial and touchy subjects, more like a chess game and less like a game of dodge ball.
    Major and covered_by_grace say Amen and like this.
  5. Israel, how do you reconcile 1 john 4:16 with the fear God verses?

    If we fear God always, we can't be in fellowship with Him. 1 john 1:5ish. And if we still fear, our love isn't perfected yet. 4:16. So, if we fear, we still have perfecting/maturing to do. The question becomes how does it get perfected? Paul writes we become as spiritually mature as Jesus was, if we do the works we were saved to do.

    Which would make sense. A mother doesn't have to study a book to lnow how to love her child, under normal circumstances. But, the love grows the more the interaction grows. That is more evident in courting, I think. For our love to grow, we have to learn to trust Him, even when it makes no sense!

    Anyone hear think Gideon thought sending 25,000 people home and kept 300 that knew which hand to drink with, have them disarm themselves, and unshield themselves, then charge with crock pots and kazoos, was a good idea sure to work? :I. Really?

    But it was trusting Him that won the day. So doing the works, learning hands on with people, doing those sheeply type chores at the end of matt 25, that we were saved to do, is how God teaches us and changes our hearts of stone and turns them into hearts of flesh.

    Even to as mature as Christ was according to Paul.

    I realize I answered my own question. I present no excuse.... but that's how I reconcile it. Until we are mature, we still have fear of judgement because we are still stepping on our own toes. After we are matured/quickened, by God, then we will no longer fear Him, we will be in fellowship, know Him.... 1 john 3:6.

    Every line is scripture. I will get them for you if you wish.
  6. X-ian Pugilist,

    If you grew up in America or western society, you no doubt have heard of "Romeo and Juliet".

    Neither Romeo's feelings for Juliet nor his romantic relationship with her were approved by Romeo's family (meaning he did not "reconcile" his relationship by RECEIVING PERMISSION).......this is "PERFECT LOVE" (perfect love is love that is UNRECONCILED LOVE, 'unapproved love', love that does not seek "PERMISSION").

    Every believer who "loves God", but seeks approval/permission from scripture does not love God the way He wants to be loved.

    God will only accept the love of a "Romeo" that has not received permission or approval from scripture.......(God only appreciates the love of a "Romeo").

    We need to be 'renegades from scripture' in order to love Him properly (this is the nature of love).....this takes a PHILOSOPHICAL understanding.

    'Jesus belief' requires an understanding of the concept of 'human dynamics' (what it means to be human).
    The "INNER MAN" is "what it means to be human"......

    ....and THEN, the inner man must have "His Spirit" in our heart and mind....

    Ephesians 3:16
    "his Spirit in the inner man".

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=strengthened with might through his Spirit in the inner man&t=RSV&sf=5

    ....(my verses are from the RSV, but you can look up other versions also at that website).

    ....THEN, when God's spirit is in your heart/mind, and conscience (Jesus purified our FLESH on the cross, and when He gave us the Spirit, John 7:39, He enabled our CONSCIENCE to be purified.....

    Hebrews 9:14
    "eternal Spirit......purify your conscience"........

    ........(this is the age of ETERNITY, the Holy Spirit is now "ETERNAL" so that we can have LIFE ETERNAL, in the N.T. covenant, we worship 'GOD ETERNAL').

    Ephesians 1;10
    "the fulness of time".

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=and in the age to come eternal life&t=RSV&sf=5

    Many believers will resist my explanation about perfect love from a "Romeo" because they insist on continuing to be dictated to by their teacher's faulty understanding of scripture (for centuries, the ministers and scholars only want MONEY and don't really care about our souls).

    Understand this carefully!.
    When an unbeliever realizes they need to know God (because they fear for their soul), for them, it is the BEGINNING of wisdom.......THAT is the only time that they should fear God. When they come to know God (TRULY know Him), they will find out that God is LOVING KIND (assuming they've learned the TRUTH ABOUT HIM).

    Then, they will no longer FEAR HIM, they will only LOVE HIM, their ONLY ATTITUDE towards Him will be LOVE.....(their love for Him has now becomes PERFECT.

    IN THE 'church BUILDINGS' (and from the pulpits), we were taught a "MILK" devotion, we weren't taught to move on to a "solid food" devotion (maturity).

    "Maturity" is not when we learn not to fear God, it is when we first come to KNOW OF JESUS that we will no longer fear Him.

    For centuries, believers have been taught to 'NOT THINK' and to only "follow" what is TOLD to them.

    LOVE cannot be COMMANDED or ORDERED, it can only be freely given.
  7. TY for your post. It's always awesome to get details of how a person things. I'll mirror your points, with my thoughts below...

    You aren't implying that Agapao/love is similar to a romantic love, are you?

    I can't discredit scripture, but I agree here... that goes with the love is grown through works. You live it, not study it.

    As long as this renegade love doesn't result in something counter to scripture, amen!

    The "inner man" is no longer there if the Spirit of God indwells you. Romans 8:9, it's removed by Christ, Col 2:11, so its no longer you who live, but HE who lives in you. Gal 2:20.

    I'm not seeing how this reconciles "Fear God" with "Love" in 1 j 4:16?

    Love BLB, also the NET Bible from bible.org.

    Depending on what you mean by flesh, the words are right. I suspect it means different to you than me, because the "flesh" Paul discusses is conquered and removed at a point.

    This sounds much like, but different, to what I was saying. I think we are on the same page.

    But that love would be manifest in love neighbor, and even enemies, and that love would result in works of some sort.
    I certainly agree with the last parts.

    We agree it's a matter of maturity. I wonder what a "mature" believer looks like to you? How would it manifest in their life?
  8. Xian,

    As an ex-christian, I would think that this time around, you would be much more willing to simply ACCEPT instead of continuously argue against what I write. Your arguements consist of 'book this' and 'book that'.

    I came to Christ 31 years ago. I was never an ex-christian but I was a backslider for the last 22 years of my 23 year 'Christian career' because I was not being shown how to be reconnected to the one whom my SOUL seeks and have a deep intimate relationship with the creator......I was simply being taught/indoctrinated to "book this" and "book that", I was heartbroken ("poor in spirit", Matthew 5:3).

    Your arguements completely ignore my explanations. I realize that you are simply playing 'Devil's Advocate' (VERY unwise) and that you KNOW your arguements do not 'hold water' in the least (humanity resists and hates truth), but I will not play your game of 'INTELLIGENTSIA' (bookmaster).

    You will never be able to understand the depths of God's wisdom until you search for God's truth with your inner man spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10).

    Instead of simply becoming a brokenhearted backslider and continuing to 'hang in there' while seeking that GOD should be your teacher instead of MAN, you just simply turned your back on my lord and walked away (I know that He is all of our's, but I embrace Him as MY lord)....

    ...("lord" is a term for "master" of the household that a person is dedicated to. In this case, I have CHOSEN to be dedicated to OUR LORD as though He were mine (because He is MY Father, ABBA Father, DEAR Father).

    With the way you argue against the principles of what is holy and pure (LOVE), you, at best, you MIGHT be a "prodigal son" (that is for The Lord to decide), but I am like the brother who never left home.

    Yes, I've made mistakes in my life and didn't know God's identity for the first 33 years, but the creator was always my 'dream of dreams'......

    ...so, I will not tarry with you about LOVING THE LORD, you will receive no further explanation from me (you are on your own, it's now between you and The Lord)......HE is the master of mercy, not I.
  9. Excuse me? you are out of line. I'm not an ex anything, and even if I was that would be what we call an appeal to authority. But that's one of those doggone things you learn in more books, that you seem to shun there. I have presented ONE BOOK that is the TOPIC of a behavior that's rampant. The only other books I have are scripture, straight scripture. This is the most out of line, posturing, misrepresenting, slanderous even, post I've faced in years.

    Well then I have you beat. If you declare me not Xian you aren't either. That isn't what poor in spirit means, heart broken. Go look the Greek word up.
    You are not worth the time to play devils advocate, you jump to conclusions way to much. If your conclusions, and arguments contradict those books in the Bible, yes I'm very cautious to accept that. Forgive me. I trust what it says, more than what someone says it says.

    Stop posturing, that's rude.

    You are totally clueless, as well as rude.

    You can't choose to be dedicated, HE enables you or HE doesn't. IF he is your father, and you are in Him, then you love as perfectly as HE does. How could you sin then? Do you still commit sins?

    So, how long have you filled in for God on the seat of judgement?

    Ok, whatever that means.?

    You could have just said you had no answer to my observations and this would have been a shorter post, rather than trying to paint a picture of me you imagined, that you could best. I don't much like having some presume about my life with Christ, and judging it when they can't. ESPECIALLY when they something so out of no where as ex xian.

    If you can't speak with, instead of to me, and if you won't accept scrpiture over a man's explanation, then we have nothing in common to discuss, you are right.
  10. For someone who claims not to be Ex-Christian, you are very familiar with the meaning of "X-ian" (you wrote "ex Xian").

    You also are FEROCIOUSLY DEFENSIVE about the issue (way too obvious).

    Do not think I don't know what the word "Xian" means. I visited "ex-christian.net" years ago in case some of them were misguided backsliders like me, but they were the most uncivilized human beings I could imagine. They continuously ragged me out and cursed me like there was no tomorrow....and NEVER let up (but they didn't want the conversation to end,.....they WANTED to hear MORE of what I had to say).

    At that time, eighty percent of them were openly contemplating suicide in their posts all over that forum (I put a stop to that, I civilized them.....I am not heartless).

    Since I am like the prodigal son's brother, I have a critical view of all who are not like the prodigal son's brother, but that doesn't mean that God will also be so critical (be glad I am not the judge)....in my eyes, they have spurned the son of God (Hebrews 10:29), but God is not so unjust (Hebrews 6:10). Indeed, one of my failures/iniquities is that my heart is torn between being just and MY LOVE FOR GOD.......(my mercy/empathy fails me after a point...be glad I am not the judge).

    After a few months, I had to leave that website in order to retain my sanity (I am not heartless, but must retain my sanity). The Lord always advised against (cautioned me) going to that website, but He never said "NO". I went there because of MY spirit (just like Jesus endured all He did because of His Father's spirit....."I" am not heartless!).

    Psalm 37:4
    "Take delight in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart".
  11. Had I said, merry xmas, would you preach I no longer celebrate Christ's birth? This post is patently ridiculous if I didn't say I was ex xian. I certainly don't remember saying it as you imply, but...... maybe? I gotta know where to look.

    I gotta tell you, I'm very ready to discuss theology, and not be judged for works based salvation which I don't condone, and being ex xian which I am not.... scripture is cool in that it doesn't assume things about its reader like that. Perhaps if this, being the constant so far, is a sign that I'm not the right kind of holy to get your approval?
  12. I just scanned the whole thread, and don't see me claiming to be ex anything. :/
  13. Israelsonehusband...

    Sorry, but you are so wrong about fearing God. Did you ever have fear that your Dad would give you a butt whipping or a grounding if you violated His rules? Even though your Dad loved you I am sure that He corrected you.I am sure you loved him but respected Him enough to fear being punished. Our walk with the Lord is the same...

    Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    We are commanded by His Word to fear Him:

    Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
    Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

    Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

    1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king

    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
    Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
    Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    Psa 36:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD. The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

    Ecc 8:12 Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
    Ecc 8:13 But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.

    Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Fear of God will help to keep you in obedience...Just as fear of your own Dad should have when you were a child!

    Fear Him...Godly fear is OK....or do you not respect the one who can throw your soul into the Lake of Fire?
  14. And 1 john 4:16 says there is no fear in perfect love. Its clear you won't listen to me, but perhaps, if you ever figure out what is being said in apparent contradictory vss we can continue this chat.

    I know this, no fear in perfect.

    Jesus COMMANDED you to love as perfectly as God does.

    You don't learn to love without trying to love.

    That word agapao, doesn't even mean love, it could mean desire, it is used in the nt for pwople desiring things against God. And its used in the LXXas the word for rape in the ot. The word means, an emotion that is acted upon. Demonstrated. That's why the sheeep went on and the goats were left behind. The sheep loved a love that resulted in.......WORKS BEING DONE!

    I know those works are more important to paul than the most impactful theological dilemma of his day, circumcision.

    I know maturity for all of those in the church, led by those gifted in leading, will help us to become as spiritually mature as christ.

    I know I can't learn new habits by reading, only by executing. Do you think a mother has to read a book to learn how to love her child??

    We can agree that fear God are words found in the Bible. But until your explanation will handle the 1 j 4:16-18 verses, we really are in different ball parks here.

    Since you like taking those verses so literally, let's see if you do that with all verses, or just the ones you cherry pick. 1 john 3:6 says something like, if you still sin, you do not know him, and have not met him. So, do you deny that you still commit sins? Or do you admit you have not seen him nor met him? Take it as flat literal as that other verse and this is what you got. I would suggest, perhaps digesting that word in greek translated as fear.

    Be well, you and I are done.
  15. Even though it doesn't make sense and actually is not possible to both 'TRULY/sincerly LOVE' AND also FEAR at the same time, many, many believers insist on continuing to do so (it's their PERSONAL decision,....fine!,.....it should be "PERSONAL", that's what The Lord wants it).

    I'm glad to hear the "lake of fire" mentiomed (because you'll see how irrational it is to continue the many beliefs that were taught to us).

    The term "lake of fire" is used only in Revelations (Jesus speaks of a "HELL of fire") and is from ancient Egyptian paganism.


    The book of Revelations was for the JUDAIZER Jews of the Council of Jerusalem (Messianic Jews accepted Jesus as the promised Messiah but did not have THE SPIRIT given in John 7:39, they still followed Mosaic law). Ezekiel 20:7, "the idols of Egypt".

    Hosea 9:1 "you have played the harlot".

    They angered God, were given over to the King of BABYLON (Ezra 5:12), and God divorced Israel ("decree of divorce", Jeremiah 3:8).



    This pertains to the modern secular 'church' that the Judaizer Jews named (Acts 11:26).

    Well, anyway, you seem to enjoy worshipping with WORDS and fancy prayers, prideful JARGON/lingo, and exciting words of wisdom (lip service). As a routine/rote belief and attitude, you have learned to fear God in order to obey the rules of man, and so, you will never be restored to be a living, breathing, soul as Adam was before the fall (a NEW creation), you will always remain a 'sixth day creation' (the 6th day creation has always enjoyed learning about the three manifestations of God as though WE are the ones who should be glorified,.......self-glorification...666).

    Revelation 13:18 "it is a HUMAN NUMBER".

    Isaiah 29:13
    "And the Lord said: "Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote".
  16. Xian and IsraelsOne, I'm not trying to do the moderators job but I really do feel that the both of you got out of line with each other. Which one was moreso out of line I will not say but remember, we are to LOVE one another. Even your enemies. Debating can be done, but in many nicer ways. 2 Tim 4:2 tells us to preach the word, be ready in season and out of seaon; reprove (correct), rebuke (critisize) and exhort (advise), with complete patience and teaching.

    I know the conext is to be towards a non-believer, but we are to be nice to the non-believer, AND more so the believer.

    Galatians 6:10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.
  17. It does seem to be that confrontation and anger toward one another has increased. I for one wonder............

    1. What new thing has happened to cause this.
    2. What has happened to the mods who were so strict only 3 months ago?

    Just asking.
  18. If you accuse me of saying or doing what I didn't say or do, then ignore when it's pointed out to you, ignore when asked to verify, then insist you still did the derogatory thing that you didn't do, how many times to you try to straighten the person out, before you accept they are deliberately malicious?

    I struggle with that. I'll accept insult after insult and still try to get through so we talk with, not just be talked at.

    That's why in another place, after you asserted something, and I addressed it, I asked you why you didn't respond.

    If I ask a question that challenges yours, or anyone's character, and you address it, but I ignore that and keep insisting the character attack is true, a reader doesn't have the opportunity to see your response to judge if your comment is wrong.

    It's just simply trying to avoid being seen as wrong, usually, and avoiding admitting it. Personally, I don't talk unless I believe I"m right. But, when I'm wrong, I will admit it. But I work much harder than most to get where I am, so when I get there, I'm pretty sure. But not presumptively sure.

    So, my shortcoming is thinking that "you" whoever you are, will back off of saying negative things, when you are rebutted and shown lacking. That's just silly of me. Some personality types will self destruct before admitting to such.

    That's my reasoning for how I got there. I'm not saying I should have got there, but I didn't get there out of malicious anger as has been suggested.

    This is the last I will address it. If people continue to make claims against my character that are false, I will just dismiss the person as a waste of time and ignore them.

    That's fair, right?
  19. WOW....

    Lets talk about Revelation for a minute since you brought it up. I 'm not going to get into it all in this thread because it is off topic. But for the sake of those reading what you wrote about Revelation, I want to ask you a couple of questions.

    First, you say the 'Lake of fire' has it's roots in Paganism...So you are saying that there are Pagan teachings in the Bible? Is that what you are trying to say?

    If Revelation is written for the 'judaizer' as you say, then we have to throw out a whole bunch of things about Revelation. I am assuming by your statements, you believe Revelation has already taken place or simply is not going to happen at all?Such as Jesus- the Lamb opening the scrolls, New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven isn't going to take place? There won't be a resurrection?...Jesus won't be coming back on the clouds with all of His saints for every eye to see...The little season wont take place, the two witnesses being killed and brought back to life in front of the whole world. Fire coming down out of Heaven and destroying those outside New Jerusalem, A new Heaven and Earth being made, Death and Hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire.. That's all just Pagan teaching eh... Just for the 'Jews of those days'...Sorry, But if you believe that then you have to throw out Most of the old Testament and all the Gospel where Jesus described the very same thing.

    Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    If you want to learn from 'Wikipedia' Good luck with that, I will stick with the Holy Spirit and the Bible.
    Revelation is happening as we speak..open your eyes while you still have a chance!

    Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

    Doesn't matter if you say you know Him. it matters if He knows you...does He? If you want to talk Revelation let's do it in another forum. Set it up and give me the name of it.
  20. dario,

    I realize that you have the need to establish yourself as a hero and peacemaker (because you are such a great and wonderful person?), but how people speak to each other is not your affair.

    You, no doubt, like to 'study, study, study' and 'obey, obey, obey' commands and protocol, performing works and rituals, and give to those who God has rewarded with the pitiful lives they lead because they always refused to do anything but mock Him, but how would you like to do HIS WILL?.

    "aspire to live quietly and to MIND YOUR OWN AFFAIRS" (1 Thessalonians 4:11).

    ("aspire" means to have the ambition).

    I know, I know, God wasn't being very considerate of your feeling when He inspired these words.

    Maybe you could explain to Him how to be properly polite so as not to upset you......or are you going to develop the habit of letting HIM tend to His own affairs the same as you should LET OTHERS be the only ones to tend to their affairs.

    It is not your business how other people speak to each other (even if you want others to judge YOUR conversations with OTHER PEOPLE).

    Xian is not protesting that I have been a hostile monster, and I am not saying that he is out of place on this forum,.....everything is right now peaceful and settled,...BUT YOU COME ALONG and stir things up by MAKING A SUGGESTION that things are not good enough (do we really have to meet your standards?...that's very harsh!).

    Of course, there is a POSSIBILITY at this moment that you could be inspiring Xian to get all riled up about how we spoke to each other (but everything right now is so peaceful, wouldn't you rather leave it that way, peacemaker?...but I think Xian is too mature for that!. Xian is knowledgeable and smart, why do you disrespect him as though he is helpless and needs you to rescue him from a hostile ogre like me?....you are insulting BOTH OF US (I am not a hostile ogre and Xian is not helpless, oh great hero).

    However, you have also gotten OTHER PEOPLE riled up, peacemaker (don't deny it, Major is also jumping in, oh great hero peace-MAKER?,......are we supposed to MAKE peace or simply LET peace be/exist???).

    Well, maybe you could do something that is 'out of character'.......CARE about The Lord's WILL.

    Apparently, The Lord does not care about your feelings or displeasure about "mind your own affairs". NEVERTHELESS, even though He has displeased the Great peacemaker hero of the earth, He offers no apologies (unless I missed something in scripture)......you can send Him all the nasty letters you want, He doesn't care! (oh what a great disappointment this must be for you).

    Anyway, His desire/WILL is that we are "QUIET" about OTHER PEOPLE'S AFFAIRS (and He doesn't care about how much restraint we must use to do this, He considers that OUR OWN AFFAIR).

    Romans 3:17
    "and the way of peace they do not know"...........let the peace BE/EXIST.
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