If we do follow the OT then we should be killing people who work on the Sabbath right? If we don't kill them then that means we don't follow the OT because Jesus fulfilled the law of the OT.
Do Christians Have To Follow The Old Testament?
- Thread starter Holy_Spirit1000
- Start date
If you lived at the time of Moses would you kill somebody for working on the Sabbath?
What I asked was who commanded this and when was it commanded? god commanded this, it was commanded mellenia ago
More importantly, to whom was it commanded? it was commanded to all of Gods followers, I know this because of this quote "Anyone who desecrates it must die."
That means anyone who breaks the law must die. I repeat, anyone.
So you agree this was commanded by God and under Mosaic law -- in other words, to the nation of Israel -- yes?
I agree God commanded this law, but I interpret " Anyone who desecrates it must die" means that anyone who breaks the law should be stoned to death whether they live in Israel or next to Israel or on the moon.
You need to do a study on the Sabbath and its importance to the Jews. Then you will better grasp why mocking it as a Jew angered God.
The heart of God was shown with Jesus, like when He saved Mary from being stoned. That was God's heart throughout the OT. Read Jonah 4:2 a couple of times. Adding the NT to the OT is to understand the heart of God behind the laws.
'We' would never judge / make a decision to kill someone. A council of elders inspired by God....overseen by the High priests who heard directly from God...were the 'judges'. Not all naughty kids or people who worked on the Sabbath were stoned. Brains were used and the level of rebellion / intent was judged properly.
You need to try and put yourself in the shoes of a Jew at that time. God has chosen you and your people to be His. He has given you high priests, prophets and an entire tribe 1/12 in full time ministry to help you. You do NOT doubt He exists. You see miracles. You do not doubt the power of His prophets. So for you...as a Jew....disobeying a commandment that God ordained as deserving of a death penalty....tells me what about you...?
Your username and picture seem to indicate you are a Christian. But why do you ask these questions? God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but the way he deals with us changes according to his will. We don't have to keep the OT laws, because our righteousness is in Jesus, but we don't discard God's word either.
Let's go even further. Let's look at Joshua when he comes into the promised land -- he practically unleashed a blitzkrieg and put to death entire populations. This isn't even the only passage of this sort of violence that can be found in the Bible. A lot of atheists use these passages to attempt to show the so called illegitimacy of God, and even many Christians struggle with these passages (I was told these passages are called the Hard passages). It's hard to handle because it seems so out of step with God described in the New Testament.
But having a tough time reconciling this isn't some new discovery -- this is a very old issue that even people in the early Church struggled with. The gnostics, for exampl, wanted to rid of the Old Testament because it was tough to understand. Thank God the best theologians resisted this idea. Origen of Alexandria in the 3rd century wrote extensively on this and expressed the entire scriptures need full understanding before one concept of God can be discarded. He wrote an illustration of the one who could bring full understanding to that of God is a beaten lamb -- this representing Christ through His divine sacrifice. Origen's point was if we are reading the scriptures in a way were we only see encouragement to be cruel or violent, we are completely misreading.
When we read the Scriptures through the lenses of the Lamb referenced in Revelation 5, we may come to better understand and reconcile that God has never changed. This has been something the great theologians of the early days concluded.
In short, despite my feelings, if we conclude to understand what God is vs. what He isn't, we have to then know that God is incapable of being unjust. When the Mosaic law was put forth to Israel, it was to provide justice of His people. This is why we can acknowledge, for example, the Bible says Thou Shalt Not Murder in Ex. 20:13...but what is murder but unjust killing. Therefor, God can't murder nor can he even condone it.
Ok lets both put ourselves in the shoes of a Jew.
"Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; 34and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses."
Now we are standing there with Moses and he tells us that God told us to stone this guy collecting sticks. We are both standing next to rocks at our feet and the sinner is standing in front of us, do we pick up a stone and throw it at this guy like God commands us to? This guy is a clear sinner and doesn't keep the Sabbath holy, so we definitely should kill this guy right?
Right. We'd kill him. Considering he didn't want to keep God's laws, he'd have to die. Which would make it even more effective when God exposes our own sinfulness, so he could send Jesus to save us.
We don't have to keep the OT laws. So that means that if Bob works on the Sabbath the Saturday before Jesus died, then Bob should be stoned to death according to God.
If Bob works on the Sabbath day on the Saturday when Jesus is crucified, then Bob should live a long life.
1 week god will kill you and the next god will spare you, depending on if Jesus had died or not. But you say God never changes?
I ask these questions because everybody I talk to doesn't know if we should follow Gods laws or they are obsolete.
God is Holy when Bob is stoned, and God is Holy when Jesus dies for Bob. Our sin requires death, you see?
So you would pick up a rock, and in Gods name throw it at a guy until his skull cracks? That's what God wants you do do? That's how you follow God? I don't know about you but that doesn't sound very Christian...
The question you asked reminded me of a discussion I had with my dad about a year ago. We disagree on the subject of torture in warfare -- he thinks it is acceptable in certain cases and I believe it violates the Christian Just War principles.
He asked me "If someone did the most despicable things to your wife and kids, wouldn't you think it's right to waterboard in the name of justice?" I answered that my emotions would want to do far more than mere waterboarding to anyone that harmed my family.
I love my dad -- he is one of the smartest people I know and taught me the meaning of being Christ-like, but I do disagree with him on this case as despite my feelings, there are objective truths that cannot be ignored.
He asked me "If someone did the most despicable things to your wife and kids, wouldn't you think it's right to waterboard in the name of justice?" I answered that my emotions would want to do far more than mere waterboarding to anyone that harmed my family.
I love my dad -- he is one of the smartest people I know and taught me the meaning of being Christ-like, but I do disagree with him on this case as despite my feelings, there are objective truths that cannot be ignored.
If I didn't have Jesus, then I'd have to keep the law to be right with God (even though in past times we were ignorant that no flesh is justified by the law), so if I was a Jewish man back before Jesus, it would be the right thing to stone that man.
But now, since we have Jesus, because God has revealed to us no flesh is justified by works of the law, we don't have to stone anyone, because we all equally deserve it.
You are justifying killing a man for collecting sticks on Saturday. I'm starting to think that you are dangerous.
You don't get it.
Would your Dad ever promote killing or even water boarding someone who was collecting sticks on a Saturday?
You think God wants us to kill people who collect sticks on a Saturday. Maybe you are the one who doesn't get it.
You're missing the point. Let's say my dad was a total hypocrite and claimed to be a Christian but believed that even children at the age of 4 years could be aborted, would his behavior change God?
No... seriously, you don't get it.
God ordering the stoning or killing of someone back then was justified, considering he is a Holy God, and we are just sinful people. The OT is there to show us that we could never be Holy on our own, and that we all deserve death. But God, in his great Love, sent Jesus to die in our place. So now, we don't have to stone or kill anyone, because God offers us righteousness apart from the law.
You have the Holy Spirit right? This should be easy to understand.