Did Jesus Died On Good Friday And Rose Early Sunday Morning?
- Thread starter Bro.tan
- Start date
Abdicate...I answered the scripture most thoroughly at least 5 or 6 times...so why re-invent the wheel?
First off, the “counting of a year of days” of the Roman Julian Calendar calculates a year as 365.25 days (which number of days we here in the west still use). Later to account for leap years they made it 366. The correct number of days in a Solar year is 365.2422 days. Over 2000 years this error has accrued, equaling about a 20 days difference ignored by most lay scholars. Now also, because of missing leap years on years that ended with #’s 00 there was an additional missing 10-13 days. When looked at with scrutiny in 1582 this was detected during the creation of the Gregorian and assumed to be corrected.
That aside, what we would call year 0-1 A.D. (the year of Christ's birth) actually happened around 4 B.C.! Herod the Great was alive when Christ was born. They kept Him in Judea until His 40 day consecration (Simeon and Anna were there) and then they went to Egypt until they heard that Herod had died. Herod the Great died in 4 B.C.! So when WE today speak A.D. and B.C. we are off about 4 years (some scholars calculate 6).
So a B.C./A.D. counting based on our present Christian calendar is off by about 4 years. That is just the truth Ab, sorry...but these are non-issues. The fact is a 3 day and 3 night burial time makes the resurrection on the 4th day...
Paul
First off, the “counting of a year of days” of the Roman Julian Calendar calculates a year as 365.25 days (which number of days we here in the west still use). Later to account for leap years they made it 366. The correct number of days in a Solar year is 365.2422 days. Over 2000 years this error has accrued, equaling about a 20 days difference ignored by most lay scholars. Now also, because of missing leap years on years that ended with #’s 00 there was an additional missing 10-13 days. When looked at with scrutiny in 1582 this was detected during the creation of the Gregorian and assumed to be corrected.
That aside, what we would call year 0-1 A.D. (the year of Christ's birth) actually happened around 4 B.C.! Herod the Great was alive when Christ was born. They kept Him in Judea until His 40 day consecration (Simeon and Anna were there) and then they went to Egypt until they heard that Herod had died. Herod the Great died in 4 B.C.! So when WE today speak A.D. and B.C. we are off about 4 years (some scholars calculate 6).
So a B.C./A.D. counting based on our present Christian calendar is off by about 4 years. That is just the truth Ab, sorry...but these are non-issues. The fact is a 3 day and 3 night burial time makes the resurrection on the 4th day...
Paul
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Bro.tan
Inactive
Once again Jesus said in (Matthew 12:38) Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Did Jesus refer to his death in the afternoon or night? Do the scriptures say three days and three afternoon or three days and three nights.
Bro.tan
Inactive
In the scriptures its written in Proverb 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. 9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
So okay, let's pretend for a moment this was meant to be taken literally....so after 3 days and 3 nights on what day did He rise? The third or the fourth?
You realize that what you are saying is you are neither wise or just? For you have not gained more wisdom neither has your learning increased.
Bro.tan
Inactive
WHAT? It was you who was implying this about we who disagree...I just applied it to you (which you first did to me)...can't handle your own false accusations? Awww! You see when you judge someone for what you yourself are, there is a word for that.
So okay, let's pretend for a moment this one passage was meant to be taken literally....so after 3 days and 3 nights on what day did He rise? The third or the fourth?
Please give a straight simple answer (third or fourth) not an attempt to divert? Thanks...
So okay, let's pretend for a moment this one passage was meant to be taken literally....so after 3 days and 3 nights on what day did He rise? The third or the fourth?
Please give a straight simple answer (third or fourth) not an attempt to divert? Thanks...
Fine, believe whatever you want. That doesn't make you correct and you're still wrong and I'm sorry you can't see that because of dogma.
Forget the 3 days and 3 nights, you haven't even addressed half the other issues with you Friday claim! I'm done.
It says so:
[Mat 27:45-50 KJV] 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard [that], said, This [man] calleth for Elias. 48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled [it] with vinegar, and put [it] on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
All before sunset...
sixth hour... ninth hour... Roman time meaning noon and 3pm...
[Mat 27:45-50 KJV] 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard [that], said, This [man] calleth for Elias. 48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled [it] with vinegar, and put [it] on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Abdicate..I must admit I did not expect this response from you. Form bro. tan yes but not from you. From the beginning I have been asking that we resolve this first issue about how to understand this phrase in relation to all the other evidence (the correct understanding has to include the whole counsel of God on the issue)...so please....answer this simply...I know yo are a sincere student of the word and a brother in Christ...After 3 full days and 3 full nights in the ground, on what day does this have Him rise? The third or the fourth? Once we have this stickler resolved then we can move on because all else depends on this. I admitted I can respect the Thurs death school of thought because they still show an "on the third day" resurrection even though this means there is night three...so though I believe the tradtion passed down I am not "Dogmatic" about it as Tan has accused.
There must be a truth that encompasses all the facts (statements all made by Jesus) so 3rd day or 4th day, please?
There must be a truth that encompasses all the facts (statements all made by Jesus) so 3rd day or 4th day, please?
Darkness during the 6th to 9th hour
One of my favorite and most reliable kinds of evidence from external sources is what is called “indirect evidence from disinterested sources“. One in particular stands out in my mind in relation to this question or application, because it addresses this barely noticed or talked about factor of the crucifixion story. The unexpected total darkness that allegedly consumed the nations around Israel for about three hours while Jesus suffered the cross.
The New Testament use to be the only known historical source for this phenomena, and of course that situation brought forth the typical accusation among modernist scholars, that “these myth-makers were obviously using a dramatic addition”, or perhaps these ignorant people didn’t understand the natural lawfulness of eclipses and read into it some element of spiritual significance, etc.! They claim, “You know those ancients, and how easily a smart person could manipulate them with knowledge of such things.” Sounds reasonable, doesn’t it?
Since then, however, we have acquired much new data, again much of it has been brought forth by the spade of the archaeologist, and again these self-proclaimed “Higher“ critics have contracted serious ‘hoof in mouth’ disease, yet they spew their rhetoric continuously in carefully engineered presentations like “From Jesus to the Christ“, aired on Bill Moyer’s, Frontline. Take a look here at some of the external evidence for this one event alone.
Sometime between the years 50 and 100 A.D., a Historian named Thallus wrote a History of the World. It covered from the fall of Troy, to the mid-first century! He records the above mentioned phenomenon very casually, assumes it to be an eclipse of the Sun, without even remotely connecting it to the Jesus events. Thallus, with no regard for the Jesus story tells us that this occurred in the middle of the day.
In Thallus, we have the first external confirmation of this Biblically recorded phenomena from a totally disinterested source. Indeed in the middle of the day (called morning to the Hebrews), the whole known world fell under a sudden darkness and this was his record of that event. Again, Thallus is drawing absolutely no connection to the crucifixion, yet records the occurrence of the phenomena.
Years later, another Historian, Julius Africanus, in his ‘History of the World’ argues against an eclipse as the most probable explanation! Yet further attests to the sudden darkness as occurring in the middle of the day, the ‘what it was’ being the issue that was debated against Thallus.
In the case of Thallus he wrote neutrally concerning the facts during the lifetime of the men who engineered the crucifixion. But as far as the Chrestos was concerned, to a patriotic Roman citizen, He was nothing more than another crucified enemy of Rome? So no mention of Him is made. Now if as the critical school originally had claimed, that this strange darkness was merely the addition or a devise…near to the time there would have been some rebuttal even regarding Thallus’s declaration. Wouldn’t you think? If Caesar even suspected what Thallus wrote was a lie, what do you think would have happened to Thallus? Yet, again, nothing happened to him. Rome accepted this History as a true accounting of the facts!
Last of all there is Phlegon, another disinterested Roman Historian that was previously a slave who had been set free by none-other than Tiberius Caesar only decades after the event. He records the event of the darkness as being exactly between the 6th and the 9th hour of the day (as Romans think of a day). He adds this was during the full moon of the very month specified in the crucifixion account (same hours, same exact day?). Here is Phlegon, another disinterested and more likely hostile source, confirming the time, and the day, which happened to be the Passover. He tells us that this happened “on the Full Moon”…an interesting additional piece of evidence.
The Scriptures say that this mysterious darkness occurred. That it occurred during the day hours when it should have been light is attested by ALL extant Historians we have found so far. So though void of any interest in perpetuating this Jewish movement in the eyes of Rome, Phlegon unknowingly ties the event of the darkness to the very Passover recorded in the Gospels, without ever mentioning its alleged relation to Y’shua/Jesus!
The problem is that a Solar Eclipse, as Thallus assumed had occurred, cannot happen during or right after a full moon. This makes this historically verified phenomenon
a) Not astronomically verifiable
b) Yet factually having occurred
c) In the middle of the daylight hours
What do you think? I do not believe based on the only actual evidence, we can conclude this was referring to between the 6th and 8th hours of the Hebrew evening portion of the day. Especially because in scriptural context the story opens with "When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death.."
Perhaps you fif not know of this additional evidence, so I offer it to you for consideration because I know you are an honest person.
brother Paul
One of my favorite and most reliable kinds of evidence from external sources is what is called “indirect evidence from disinterested sources“. One in particular stands out in my mind in relation to this question or application, because it addresses this barely noticed or talked about factor of the crucifixion story. The unexpected total darkness that allegedly consumed the nations around Israel for about three hours while Jesus suffered the cross.
The New Testament use to be the only known historical source for this phenomena, and of course that situation brought forth the typical accusation among modernist scholars, that “these myth-makers were obviously using a dramatic addition”, or perhaps these ignorant people didn’t understand the natural lawfulness of eclipses and read into it some element of spiritual significance, etc.! They claim, “You know those ancients, and how easily a smart person could manipulate them with knowledge of such things.” Sounds reasonable, doesn’t it?
Since then, however, we have acquired much new data, again much of it has been brought forth by the spade of the archaeologist, and again these self-proclaimed “Higher“ critics have contracted serious ‘hoof in mouth’ disease, yet they spew their rhetoric continuously in carefully engineered presentations like “From Jesus to the Christ“, aired on Bill Moyer’s, Frontline. Take a look here at some of the external evidence for this one event alone.
Sometime between the years 50 and 100 A.D., a Historian named Thallus wrote a History of the World. It covered from the fall of Troy, to the mid-first century! He records the above mentioned phenomenon very casually, assumes it to be an eclipse of the Sun, without even remotely connecting it to the Jesus events. Thallus, with no regard for the Jesus story tells us that this occurred in the middle of the day.
In Thallus, we have the first external confirmation of this Biblically recorded phenomena from a totally disinterested source. Indeed in the middle of the day (called morning to the Hebrews), the whole known world fell under a sudden darkness and this was his record of that event. Again, Thallus is drawing absolutely no connection to the crucifixion, yet records the occurrence of the phenomena.
Years later, another Historian, Julius Africanus, in his ‘History of the World’ argues against an eclipse as the most probable explanation! Yet further attests to the sudden darkness as occurring in the middle of the day, the ‘what it was’ being the issue that was debated against Thallus.
In the case of Thallus he wrote neutrally concerning the facts during the lifetime of the men who engineered the crucifixion. But as far as the Chrestos was concerned, to a patriotic Roman citizen, He was nothing more than another crucified enemy of Rome? So no mention of Him is made. Now if as the critical school originally had claimed, that this strange darkness was merely the addition or a devise…near to the time there would have been some rebuttal even regarding Thallus’s declaration. Wouldn’t you think? If Caesar even suspected what Thallus wrote was a lie, what do you think would have happened to Thallus? Yet, again, nothing happened to him. Rome accepted this History as a true accounting of the facts!
Last of all there is Phlegon, another disinterested Roman Historian that was previously a slave who had been set free by none-other than Tiberius Caesar only decades after the event. He records the event of the darkness as being exactly between the 6th and the 9th hour of the day (as Romans think of a day). He adds this was during the full moon of the very month specified in the crucifixion account (same hours, same exact day?). Here is Phlegon, another disinterested and more likely hostile source, confirming the time, and the day, which happened to be the Passover. He tells us that this happened “on the Full Moon”…an interesting additional piece of evidence.
The Scriptures say that this mysterious darkness occurred. That it occurred during the day hours when it should have been light is attested by ALL extant Historians we have found so far. So though void of any interest in perpetuating this Jewish movement in the eyes of Rome, Phlegon unknowingly ties the event of the darkness to the very Passover recorded in the Gospels, without ever mentioning its alleged relation to Y’shua/Jesus!
The problem is that a Solar Eclipse, as Thallus assumed had occurred, cannot happen during or right after a full moon. This makes this historically verified phenomenon
a) Not astronomically verifiable
b) Yet factually having occurred
c) In the middle of the daylight hours
What do you think? I do not believe based on the only actual evidence, we can conclude this was referring to between the 6th and 8th hours of the Hebrew evening portion of the day. Especially because in scriptural context the story opens with "When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death.."
Perhaps you fif not know of this additional evidence, so I offer it to you for consideration because I know you are an honest person.
brother Paul
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I thought you were trying to say He was crucified in the evening? You were not clear as to a point in quoting the passage you mentioned. If we start in the morning (around sunrise, Hebrew time not Roman) according to the text's context (verse 1) then the sixth hour of the morning time would be around noon I would think...what say ye brother?
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It was a response to #128....sorry!
Your question clearly shows you didn't read the chart I made. It clearly states "the third day" just as the Scriptures say. But your western thinking prevents you from understanding how this can be. You, like many others, want a verse that says "Jesus died Wednesday [or Friday] and rose on Sunday at 3am" but it doesn't exist. The only way to tackle this problem is to use all the verses and the customs of the day. I had to write a book about it. When you hold onto one verse and exclude others to explain everything, then you're going to miss the truth. I have presented all the verses that deal with this subject in that "irrelevant" chart, with the phases of the moon, the Jewish customs and even the legalistic battles Jesus had with the Pharisees and gave you Dead Sea Scrolls information, and everything lines up, except what you've chosen to believe. I have shown you all the possible calendar dates and why some fit and others do not, but you still hold to tradition. I have also stated that Jesus rose on the first day of the week just as the Scriptures have said. The first day of the week begins on what we in the west call Saturday night after sunset, to the Jews it's the first day of the week. Evening and morning are the beginning and the end of the day. Everything fits, all verses, which is why dogma doesn't work, it leaves off other verses that are equally as important.
dogma: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
tradition: the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
These two definitions are why there are 41,000 "christian" denominations and why the world is ending.
Both are wrong, which is why I go to such great lengths to show scriptures. It's the only authority. I'm not the sharpest tool in the toolbox... it took me ten years to resolve all the complexities of this conversation based on every verse of the Scriptures. I had to set aside what I was taught as a kid, learned from TV shows, movies and the pulpit. Once I allowed the Holy Spirit to teach me the truth, I could see it. And I write too much so people don't want to read my postings, but these are not easy subjects to answer without intense study.
I'm not sure to whom you're speaking on this matter, but I agree, though I do not know who said "6th and 8th hours of the Hebrew evening portion of the day"; it wasn't me. I stated that the time was based on Roman time which starts at sunrise (~6am) so the second hour is 8am, third hour 9am, sixth hour noon, ninth hour 3pm. As to what the Darkness was, I believe it was indeed the Father. Visiting Abraham there was a frightful darkness (Genesis 15:11-13) and with Moses in Exodus 20:21-22, Deuteronomy 4:11; 5:22-23; and with David in II Samuel 22; and with Solomon I Kings 8:12-13, II Chronicles 6:1-2 and with Job confusing the Darkness with death; and in Psalms 18 & 97. Just my thoughts.
Well you keep pointing to your own chart as if that is evidence of the truth, Paul has made every effort to help you understand your errors, to which you only seem to respond in a way that does not allow for him to have a reasonable discussion with you on this issue.