Did Jesus Die For Everyone...?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by RosaVera, Feb 4, 2014.

  1. #1 RosaVera, Feb 4, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014

    Hope that our administrator, Hismanysongs, will not mind me quoting him in this thread... and i am only quoting his words because they are used only to start this thread not in any other way or any other reason.

    We know that God loves us, loves everyone, but, did Jesus die for 'everyone'...?
  2. Did Jesus die also for those like Judas who betrayed Him... and for people like Hitler ...? Was His sacrifice for believers and non believers , did He also sacrifice Himself for those that refuse to believe in Him and curse Him...?
  3. 1 John 2:1-2
    My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    James 2:10
    For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

    All of us are equally undeserving of atonement, so atonement is equally offered to all.

    If the scriptures teach that Jesus is our atonement, the question is not about who His sacrifice was for, but how does someone receive what has been offered?

    Romans 4
    1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
    22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

    His atonement is offered to all, and for those who believe, God will credit with righteousness, and will not count their sin against them (Romans 4:8).
  4. If they are believers then the scripture says he will not be crucified again. (Heb 6) strange question there.
    Unless you were referring to some false election doctrine. Then what Roads said, for the whole World also and for those that will believe through the Word.

    Scripture already said........ Jesus speaking.
    Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    That would have included Hitler.

    Also what Roads said........
  5. No problem.

    Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone will accept the gift.
  6. back when I was in college, there was this cartoon posted in the campus center.
    The cartoon begins with poeple sitting around in the snow shivering, and there's one fellow walking around handing
    out blankets. Not all would accept the blankets. One, refusing the blanket, said "it will get warmer soon", to which the fellow handing out the blankets said "yes, it most certainly will".

    The fellow handing out blankets represented Christ giving salvation away freely, while the ones who refused the blankets
    represent those who refuse salvation even though the need is obvious.

    Years ago a fellow I knew and I were having a discussion about the "existance of God", and at one point
    he blurted out "nobody is going to tell me what to do". In my experience, that is the determining factor.
    As C.S. Lewis alluded to, there are those that say to God "Thy will be done", and those to whom God must finally say
    "thy will be done".

    In my case, long ago I came to the realization that I have no idea what I'm doing, and need all the instruction/hints/guidance
    from above that I can get.
    RosaVera likes this.
  7. #7 ixoye_8, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
    actually Rosa is being technical ..
    Judas is a good example ..
    Jhn 17:12
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    so she is correct .. Judas could/would not have Jesus' blood applied to him, or God word was not true ..

    Jhn 3:16
    “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    so He died (His blood poured out) for WHOMSOEVER not EVERYONE ..

    meaning the price He paid to reinstate mankind ..
    was for those who would believe ..
    none of God's blood was to be applied to those who do not believe ..
    thus not for everyone ..

    Mat 26:28
    for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

    you also may have a problem with those who follow a predestination theology .. in which you must explain a lot of scriptures like "those who the father gave me" .. or

    Rom 8:30
    and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
  8. #8 ixoye_8, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
    HisManySongs .. the thing about God, is He has always made exceptions .. I had a conversation just recently about this verse ..

    Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    Jhn 16:7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

    so first I showed where the HS has been on earth ..
    Isa 63:11 Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses.
    Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,
    (which was the pillar of fire & cloud)

    and then in an indwelling form before Jesus birth ..

    even in the OT we find the exceptions of the Prophets having the HS (see Num 11:25, Num 11:26, Num 27:18, Mic 3:8, Jdg 13:25, Jdg 14:6, 1Sa 16:13, 1Sa 19:23, 2Ch 20:14, Isa 48:16, Isa 59:21, Eze 3:12, Eze 3:24, Eze 8:3, Mat 22:43)

    then just before Jesus was born ..

    here are a few exceptions for the sake of Jesus' birth; (see Luk 1:41, Luk 1:15, Luk 1:67

    Jesus WAS filled with the HS (see Luk 4:1, Luk 4:14, Jhn 1:33) .. just not ALL mankind could yet .. only those chosen (like a prophet) could have an indwelling until He enacted/finished what He came to do .. here are a few exceptions for the sake of Jesus' birth;Luk 2:25-27)

    would not casting out demons and the miracles the Apostles did be by the HS, since that is a gift of the HS ???

    Mat 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    also notice the HS was with John the Baptist prior to Jesus' ministry ..

    Luk 1:15 “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.
    Luk 1:80 And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts until the day of his public appearance to Israel.

    according to scripture .. prophets spoke according to the HS ..
    and it even says the High Priests were given a yearly prophecy ..

    Jhn 11:50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.”
    Jhn 11:51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,
    Jhn 11:52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

    and that speaks volumes, because he misinterpreted the prophecy he was given to mean the physical instead of the spiritual ..
    meaning instead of Jesus becoming a mediator of salvation, he thought the prophecy meant Jesus must die or the Romans will kill them all ..

    so the HS was in all the prophets Simeon, John the Baptist, Anna etc and the (High Priest yearly) .. I even question when Jesus asked Peter "who do you think I am" .. and then said "God revealed that to you" if that meant the HS .. I think so ..

    I also question if it was the HS that gave dreams to Joseph, Pilates wife etc ..
    RosaVera likes this.
  9. #9 Roads, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
    The way I prefer to look at it is, God has sovereignty to do what He wants, and whatever He does, He is still good. See: the book of Job.

    Perhaps. Rosa can speak for herself, but the way I read her question is: "Did Jesus die also for those [who have committed exceptionally evil sins]?" I could have read that totally wrong, but I didn't think Rosa was asking a technical question about predestination.

    If the question is, "Is God's willingness to offer atonement relative to the severity of a person's sin," I think that's a different conversation from the technicalities of predestination, and everyone participating here had been answering that question in ways that are faithful to scriptural teaching. Verses like John 17:12 do offer some challenging questions, but it doesn't say (and I don't think you were suggesting otherwise :)) that the "son of perdition" must be lost because of the grave severity of his sin, but "that the scripture might be fulfilled." (And God has sovereignty to do what He wants, and whatever He does, He is still good.)

    Okay, so if we think of Jesus' atonement using the analogy of a gift (Ephesians 2:8-9), let's say you work in an office, and at Christmas, you buy everyone a gift. Say, it's an espresso maker, for the whole office, and you put it in the kitchen for anyone to use. The gift is freely offered to everyone (even to the guy who always takes a bite out of your sandwich in the staff fridge), but everyone still has a choice to accept it, or not. If a person never chose to use the espresso maker, was it ever really "for" them? I'd say "yes" and "no" are both acceptable responses (although, in terms of the implications for Christian ministry, I personally think "yes" is a more helpful way of looking at it). Does it change things if I have foreknowledge of whether or not each person will accept the gift? Well, since I can't come anywhere close to wrapping my head around the implications of foreknowledge, I'll just say that I don't know, and I won't insist that it has to be either way. And I also think that in practical ministry terms, it's probably irrelevant:

    For example, since Rosa mentioned Hitler, let's suppose while he was still around, Hitler approached you, convicted about his life, and asked how he can be saved. Whatever you believe about what the technicalities of "for" are in "for" whom the gift of atonement is offered, would any Christian ever respond to such a request by saying, "Well, some people just aren't predestined to receive atonement, and you have done some pretty bad things, so maybe you can't be saved." I think it's more likely, we would each read him 1 John 1:2, He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    So Rosa, whatever it is you were asking in your question, I hope you've found something helpful in something someone said to help guide you toward an answer!
    Tressa likes this.
  10. 1 John 2:2, sorry
  11. #11 ixoye_8, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
  12. #12 ixoye_8, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
    indeed 1 John 2:2 does say "holos G3650 kosmos G2889" which means "entire/whole" & "world/all that is created" .. but that was a blanket statement by John ..

    if it was not a blanket statement, then you have John refuting Jesus saying "Judas was not saved so scripture would be fulfilled" .. and John refuting himself quoting the prophet saying through the HS "some God chose, the rest He hardened their hearts so they would not be saved" and John refuting Paul expounding on the same thing .. as well as John refuting all those "pre-destination" verses that also speak of "those chosen" ..

    so what do you think .. that was a blanket statement, or was that one verse by John refuting Jesus, himself, the HS, the prophet & Paul ???
  13. #13 ixoye_8, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
    here is Paul making a similar "blanket statement" ..

    Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole G3650 world G2889.

    and as history attests, about the time this was written, Rome had already conquered England and had campaigns in Ireland .. so "whole world" is in fact a "blanket statement" ..
  14. yes .. you used his words to start the thread because you wanted me to bring to light the truth written in scripture .. not to correct him .. but that was a given effect to the cause .. nonetheless, it is eisegesis from taking just one verse literal, when it was not meant literal but in a generally encompassing manner .. and the pseudo understanding should be corrected ..
  15. I asked the Lord if we're all sinners by Adam, then why when the Last Adam (Jesus) came, Who is greater, did everyone not just get saved automatically? I received the understanding that Adam chose to put his authority over that of God's. In order to get saved, one must realize that they have no authority or means to get to heaven. We are in a debtor's prison with no way to paying our way out. God seeing this sent His Son to pay the price for the wages of sin so that we can be free. The only catch is we must not only acknowledge that we are sinners, unable to pay our way out, but accept His free gift of righteousness through faith and the work of Jesus on the cross. Once we put God's authority over our own via faith, then we are saved. Jesus did indeed die for everyone from Adam to the last child born, but they must accept God's gift of righteousness. And for those who have never heard of Jesus, they still know Him for His signature is written in the stars and God wrote of Himself in our hearts.
    RosaVera likes this.
  16. #16 ixoye_8, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
    Adam disobeyed God .. that is sin .. the penalty for sin is death .. that was the curse God placed on all mankind through Adam .. spiritual death, which means separation from God .. God planned to redeem man all along .. that is WHY he set Adam up ..
    how did He do that ??? .. By telling Adam if you eat from the tree of Life you will die .. which is only 1/2 the data .. and satan exploited that saying you wont die (meaning physically) which Adam wouldn't .. because God meant spiritual death .. hence Jesus came to pay the price of our sin because being without blame, only He could ..
    salvation is not a "free gift" per-say ..
    that fact that he offers salvation is a "free gift" ..
    to gain salvation we must "believe in God and the sacrifice made by Jesus who is God's son to redeem us" .. "try our best" to obey God .. and when we fail, repent sincerely .. this IS loving God with our ALL (Jesus said that is what is needed to gain salvation) and loving neighbor as self .. the whole idea behind His plan for man's failure and redemption, was so God could prove to us 1st the Greatness of His love for us .. so we in-turn would love Him back also with a Great love .. His covenant/pact with us, is a covenant/pact of Love ..

    God Bless you ..

    BTW: I am not a sinner .. I repent if I sin, and trust Jesus is righteous and forgives them when I do .. He IS the lamb that TAKES AWAY our sins, thus He makes me without sin through Him ..

    nor is anyone alive on earth saved yet .. about 200 scriptures verses refute it ..
    RosaVera likes this.
  17. "Try our best" is nothing but filthy rags - in the Hebrew, menstrual rags.

    As I said, it's all Jesus, nothing us. So why do you attempt to "correct" me? I guess you just like to debate.
  18. I don't think it has to be either, but that's not relevant. If we make this thread a discussion about predestination, my prediction is no one changes their position and it gets locked in 5 pages. I know that won't matter to a man on a mission, so I won't say anything more on that except in my experience, discussing the truth is more helpful than "exposing" untruth. I won't discard your position on the matter, but I'm also not satisfied with its claim to be entirely free of eisegesis. I hope we can, at the least, agree that whatever we believe about predestination, there is never, ever a point in our lives where we can look at another individual and tell that person, "I know that you can never be chosen for heaven; you are predestined for hell and I know God will never offer you atonement." The practical reality of a Christian's belief about predestination seems trivial to me; whatever we believe about it, it doesn't change our responsibility to love all equally and preach the gospel of salvation to all equally. So if a person asks me if God offers atonement to "people like Hitler," my inclination is to say that God's willingness to offer atonement is not relative to the apparent severity of our sin, not to talk about predestination.
    Tressa likes this.
  19. Greetings,

    Jesus took on the sins of the world, period. But as was already stated, if we do not accept the gift then his righteousness is not imputed to us.
  20. Of course He can and does. He is God after all and may do as His perfect will pleases.

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