Devotional - Stop Profaning The Holy Things Of God!

Discussion in 'Thoughts for Today' started by anthony wade, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. - Ezekiel 44: 23 (KJV)



    This message has been burning in my spirit for some time now. It is always difficult to speak against some of the sacred cows of the church. The things we have turned into idols that far too many cling to. We do not want to hear that the way we are playing church is simply not Biblical. We do not want to hear that our way of playing church is actually an affront to a holy God. We think we know better. We think that if we throw in a couple of "in the name of Jesus'" and "hallelujahs" that we make clean what is most certainly unclean. Or we marginalize it. We think that the holy is not that serious. That those who would complain make too big a deal out of it. Before we get into the matter I want us to go back to a man name Uzzah. He was a man who was assigned by King David to assist in carrying the ark of the covenant back to Jerusalem.



    And David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the Lord, with songsand lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals. And when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God struck him down there because of his error, and he died there beside the ark of God. And David was angry because the Lord had broken out against Uzzah. And that place is called Perez-uzzah to this day. - 2Samuel 6: 5-8 (ESV)



    If David wanted to be angry he should have been angry with himself. When you read in the Torah God gave specific instructions for how the ark was to be transported and who was allowed to touch it. Uzzah was not a member of the Levite tribe so therefore he was not supposed to touch it. It also was not supposed to be so casually transported by way of a cart but suspended by poles and carried by the Levitical group known as the Kohathites. Now I am sure some of us read this and still wonder what was the big deal? That is because the modern church teaches an apathy towards the reverence we should hold for the holiness of Almighty God. The modern church has mixed the clean with the unclean as a matter of routine. What is worse, we treat the profane as holy and the holy as profane. Please realize that God did not care about their false worship. The verses above indicate that they were all singing and dancing and having a good ole time in the Lord right when Uzzah was struck dead. We can dress ourselves up all we like and claim to worship God but none of it matters to God if we are disobedient. As Jesus Himself once lamented - why do you bother calling me Lord if you refuse to do what I say? Also note here that the intentions of Uzzah were simply not relevant to God. I am sure that Uzzah had the best of intentions. After all, the oxen had just stumbled! He could have been afraid of the ark falling to the ground or maybe he simply reached out as a reflex action. It does not matter! He never should have been in the position of disobedience to begin with. Trying to do the right thing in the middle of doing the wrong thing is does not sway God. Far too often we walk around thinking that as long as our heart was in the right place, God will understand if we reach out to steady the ark. Ask Uzzah how that worked for him.



    We better wake up soon as the church and stop allowing what is holy to be profaned in the name of God. We are like Uzzah walking in defiance to God but thinking everything is going to be OK because we are just following the leader. It does not work like that. I came across this advertisement today on YouTube from someone calling himself a "Master Prophet."







    That is right for only $50 you too can have the apostolic mantle that the Bible says was only for those who set the foundation of the church. What are you saying preacher? I am saying and take this very seriously - there are no more offices of apostle or prophet and the Bible will support this assertion. I see as you must every day the wannabe prophets and apostles touting their fantastic titles as a means to draw people. You should stay far away. You should not be found as Uzzah, walking alongside enjoying the music. Now you may look at this video and rightly think that this scam is obvious but realize how many thousands of thousands of people do not. How many completely buy into this nonsense. How many in your church? How many in leadership at your church? How did your local apostle get his title? How much did he pay for it? How much will you end up paying for it? We will come back to the office of Apostle but let us start with the office of Prophet first.



    Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. - Hebrews 1: 1-2 (ESV)



    Make sure you understand what is being said here. In the Old Testament there were no printing presses to run off copies of the law. There were no means of electronic communication. God spoke to His people through His Prophets. If you wanted to hear from the Lord you had to see the Prophet. The Old Testament is filled with stories of kings sending for the Prophet to advise them one way or the other as to what sayeth the Lord. There are also stories of kings who surrounded themselves with false prophets who prophesied what they wanted to hear instead of what God was saying. This method of communication became obsolete when God sent His only Son into the world. Jesus held the office of Prophet for the last time. He spoke to those in His day for God and left us His Word to continue to speak to us. According to John, He is the Word. We do not need to seek out someone who paid $50 for a fancy title when we have the full counsel of God at our fingertips! God's Word is holy and righteous yet we treat it as profanely as Uzzah treated the ark of the covenant.



    What passes these days for prophets are merely people playing parlor games with the people of God. It is more clairvoyance than prophecy. It is dealing with unclean spirits, not the holy Spirit of God. How can we know this? Because Scripture is very clear that if a prophet speaks and it does not come to pass than you have not heard from a prophet! Yet take this quote from Rick Joyner, who calls himself a prophet:



    “There is a prophet named Bob Jones who was told that the general level of prophetic revelation in the church was about 65% accurate at this time. Some are only about 10% accurate, a very few of the most mature prophets are approaching 85% to 95% accuracy. Prophecy is increasing in purity, but there is a still a long way to go for those who walk in this ministry” - (The Prophetic Ministry, Rick Joyner- Morningstar Prophetic Newsletter. Vol. 3, No. 2, p. 2).



    So the bar is now set at 65%? Is that of God or of man? People should take the holy things of God more seriously. The reality is that we are like King Ahab who only wanted to hear good things from his prophets:



    And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, “Inquire first for the word of the Lord.” Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Shall I go to battle against Ramoth-gilead, or shall I refrain?” And they said, “Go up, for the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.” But Jehoshaphat said, “Is there not here another prophet of the Lord of whom we may inquire?” And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “There is yet one man by whom we may inquire of the Lord, Micaiah the son of Imlah, but I hate him, for he never prophesies good concerning me, but evil.” And Jehoshaphat said, “Let not the king say so.” - 1Kings 22: 5-8 (ESV)



    I hate him for he never prophesies good concerning me! This spirit of Ahab is alive and well in our churches today! We gather around titles to hear what we want to hear instead of what sayeth the Lord! Do we even realize how profanely we treat this office by parading ourselves around with a $50 certificate? This was the office held by Elijah and Elisha. It was held by Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Do you think they lorded their titles around people? Do you think they introduced themselves as Prophet so and so? Or did they consider themselves as unworthy to carry the Word of the Lord? Did they consider themselves as having unclean lips or brag on end about their "office?" Beware those who feel the need to insist on their title of prophet. I read recently a famous pastor who was hearing someone speak and found their message so revelatory that they asked them at the end if he were a prophet. The person answered, that is never for me to say. Amen.



    Just as much if not more clearly, the office of Apostle is no longer in operation and Scripture affirms this. Not that false apostles is a new phenomena:



    “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. - Revelation 2: 1-2 (ESV)



    Even in the early church there were those claiming the mantle that did not belong to them. The Bible makes clear that an Apostle was someone who walked with Christ. The Gospels clearly indicate that Jesus chose the 12 and Matthias eventually would be chosen by lot (meaning God chose him as well) to replace the office Judas held. The only other apostle was Paul, whom Jesus visited Himself personally to make him the apostle to the gentiles.



    Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead - Galatians 1: 1 (NIV)



    Those that walk today under the title of apostle are merely sent by men. They are like the false teachers in the New Apostolic Reformation or the Kansas City Prophets or Bill Johnson's heresy in California. They are so dangerous because their claim is always that they have received some special revelation from God and that they hold some special authority over the church. They constantly push for deeper "spiritual" experiences or deeper revelation. When did the Holy Spirit inside of us and the holy Word of God cease being sufficient? They draw upon a few Scriptures they do not understand to prop up their make believe office. They are Uzzah walking alongside the holy while treating it profanely. There are two sets of Scriptures they routinely abuse to defend themselves. Let us set the record straight:



    And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsand teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, - Ephesians 4: 11-12 (ESV)



    Yes, God did give the apostles and prophets for equipping the saints for the work of ministry but this is only two lines in a letter that has six chapters. The first rule of hermeneutics is context. When Ephesians was written there were no chapters. It was one whole letter written to the Church at Ephesus, not so coincidentally the same church Jesus was writing to in Revelation when He commended them for determining false apostles among them. Let us go back to chapter two to understand the full context:



    So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. - Ephesians 2: 19-22 (ESV)



    The apostles and the prophets are the foundation of the church with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. This language would not be lost on the original hearers of this letter. You do not lay a foundation twice. This is why Paul specifically mentions only the apostles and prophets here as foundational and then in chapter four he lists all of the positions God has provided to help the church. Now there is another set of Scriptures that are misused:



    And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. - 1Corinthians 12: 28-31 (NIV)



    Beloved, this is a list of giftings God has provided for the church, not offices. How do we know this? Because the end of the verses exhorts us to seek the greater gifts - not offices! Putting that aside we see that the first three are given in order of importance. First apostles and yes, some had an apostolic gifting but as we already saw in Ephesians, these were for the foundation. The apostolic gift passed with the writing of the New Testament. We know this because when the Apostles were replacing Judas with Matthias in Acts 1: 22-24 we learn that an apostle must have witnessed the resurrected Christ.



    Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” - Acts 1: 22-24 (NIV)



    Second in order of importance was the prophet. This office was no longer needed once the New Testament was written and God had used them to lay the foundation of the church. Now this does not mean that the gift of prophecy does not still exist. It most certainly does because it is listed in the gifts of the Spirit earlier in the same chapter!



    Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. - 1Corinthians 12: 7-11 (NIV)



    1Thessalonians says to not despise prophecies. 1Corinthians 14 says to be eager to prophesy. There are too many corresponding Scriptures to say that the gift of prophecy is no longer in operation but the office is closed. Some may say this is merely parsing words but I do not think so. I think we need to take the holy things of God more seriously. Every time I have seen someone use the title of apostle or prophet it has always been for self promotion. Do you think the Apostle Paul introduced himself as such? Throughout his writings I see him refer to himself as a bond servant or even slave to the Lord Jesus Christ. Even when he does refer to himself as an apostle he is quick to clarify that he is the least of the apostles and does not deserve the title for he once persecuted the church. The seven sons of Sceva once thought they could call upon the holy name of Jesus without being in relationship with Him. The demons beat them so bad they ran away naked and bleeding. Ananias and Sapphira once thought they could lie to the Holy Spirit and because they profaned the holy, God struck them dead where they stood. Just like Uzzah before them. We need to get back to calling what is holy, holy and what is profane, profane. We need to stop making excuses for what we know is ungodly and placing ourselves where we ought not be. Eventually the oxen will stumble.



    Reverend Anthony Wade - December 6, 2013
     
  2. Great, until you said there are no more Apostles. Least you tried, so I give credit for that.
     
  3. so your assertion is there are apostles today? and what Scriptures do you use to support this belief?
     
  4. If you are a Reverend, then it's not my place to correct. We also must understand why we believe there are no Apostles, when in fact there are Apostles. We have zero scripture that tell us there are no Apostles. Just by that fact alone, we would not remove them.

    We also know there were more Apostles besides the 12, another fact that though not part of the Lambs Apostles as there are only 12 and will always be just 12, that does not mean the Office is no longer needed.

    As you already stated, Are all Apostles, all speak in tongues, all this or that? Of course not, Paul was giving instruction for a church setting and everything be done decent and in order. Being an Apostle does not give me the right to speak up at another mans meeting. I would only speak if asked, or if I had the place. Paul said the same things saying I wish you all stop fighter over who belongs to who.

    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    (Eph 4:11-12)

    If there are no more Apostles then there is no more perfecting of the Saints, or at least hindered. People would also like to remove the Prophet office and just keep the ones they want to believe. It does not work like that, we believe what the Word says and ask God to help understand how there can be Apostles and Prophets if we don't see them.

    It's never been a question about there being Sent Ones to preach the Word (Apostles)

    That has never been the issue. The question is do men or women walk in that kind of power of God today? So it's not about the Apostle as that is one that starts works and is sent out. Stephan walked in Miracles and wonders, but was not an apostle.

    For some reason we add in the word (Power) with the Apostle office but Peter said the man at Gate beautiful was not raised because of his Holiness or some calling. He was raised because of His faith in the Name of Jesus. Peter stops that argument.

    Title means nothing, but the office does. Apostle is still a Greek Word that we did not bother to translate. We call them Missionaries today as they are sent to start works. They are called and empowered by the Lord to go forth into dark places to start ministries. That is what all the Apostles did in the bible. There has to be a calling to do that successfully.

    Being called a Missionary or an Apostle did not call you to do miracles. We know the Apostles in the bible had mighty works follow them but so did everyone else that believed.

    Jesus has never changed, His ministry offices have never changed. Still the same Jesus today, yesterday and forever.

    To sum up:
    Zero scripture that tells us there are no more Apostles, No scripture mentioning the condition was to see the resurrection, we have to add that to the scripture which we know better.

    Paul would not be an apostle if that were the case as Jesus met him "AFTER" being resurrected. 500 saw him Resurrected but that did not make all 500 Apostles.

    Paul mentioned 2 Apostles that were not part of the 12. One was a female. (Rom 16:7)

    All of the Offices are needed for the perfecting of the saints and all the saints still need perfecting.

    To convince me that there are no more Apostles, I would need something called a scriptures that said so, but instead I have scripture to prove there are today and the Office is still valid today. Not seeing something does not make it not true, not understanding it does not make it not true. We walk by faith, not by site.

    Blessings.
     
  5. First, forgive the caps, i was trying to keep my thoughts separate from yours. I will not do it this way if the conversation continues.


    LET ME START BY SAYING THAT EVEN THOUGH I AM A REVEREND, I AM NOT ABOVE DISCUSSION OR CORRECTION. I AM FAR FROM INFALLIBLE AND I RECOGNIZE THAT REASONABLE PEOPLE CAN DISAGREE REASONABLY. LET ME JUST SAY THAT WE DEFINITELY HAVE SCRIPTURE TO SAY THAT THERE ARE NO APOSTLES TODAY:



    Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” - Acts 1:22-24 (NIV)



    FOR ONE OF THESE (APOSTLES) MUST BECOME A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION. THIS WAS THE CRITERIA THEY USED TO PICK THE APOSTOLIC REPLACEMENT FOR JUDAS. AS FOR PAUL, IT IS WELL DOCUMENTED THAT HE SAW THE RESURRECTED CHRIST ON THE DAMASCUS ROAD. IT IS NOT ABOUT WITNESSING THE ACTUAL RESURRECTION, NONE OF THEM WITNESSED THAT. IT WAS ABOUT SEEING THE RESURRECTED CHRIST. YES ALL 500 WHO SAW THE RESURRECTED CHRIST COULD HAVE MET THE QUALIFICATIONS BUT THE OTHER ATTRIBUTE OF AN APOSTLE IS THAT GOD SELECTED THEM. WITH MATTHIAS, THIS WAS WHY THEY DREW LOTS FOR HIM.



    So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. - Acts 1: 23-26 (NIV)



    THEY PRAYED FOR GOD TO SELECT THE REPLACEMENT THROUGH THE CASTING OF LOTS, WHICH FELL TO MATTHIAS.



    NOW, THE EPHESIAN FOUR VERSES ARE UNDERSTOOD IN THE CONTEXT OF THE THE EPHESIAN TWO VERSES WHICH CLEARLY STATE THAT THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS WERE PART OF THE FOUNDATION. YOU DO NOT LAY A FOUNDATION A SECOND TIME. THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS IS STILL ONGOING THROUGH THE ACTIVE OFFICES AND GIFTS, NOT THE INACTIVE ONE.



    THE SENT ONES TO PREACH THE WORD ARE NOT THE APSOTLES TODAY. THEY ARE THE TEACHERS AND PASTORS, BOTH OF WHICH ARE COMPLETELY ACTIVE. STEPHEN DID INDEED WALK IN THE GIFTS OF MIRACLES AND WONDERS BUT WAS NOT AN APOSTLE BECAUSE HE DID NOT MEET THE REQUIREMENTS. YOU MAKE AN ARGUMENT I NEVER HEARD BEFORE IN THAT THE MODERN DAY APOSTLES ARE ACTUALLY MISSIONARIES. WHILE I LIKE THE NOTION IT IS NOT SUPPORTED BIBLICALLY. THE APOSTLES DID A WHOLE LOT MORE THAN GO INTO THE DARK PLACES OF THE WORLD. HOWEVER, IF YOUR MAIN ARGUMENT IS YOU LIKE TO CONSIDER MISSIONARIES TO BE IN HOLDING OF AN APOSTOLIC OFFICE, I WOULD DISAGREE BUT SAY THAT IT IS NOT WORTH ARGUING OVER. MY POINT WAS MORE ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE ABUSING THE HOLY THINGS OF GOD AND I CERTAINLY DO NOT PUT MISSIONARIES IN THAT GROUP.


    YOU SAY BEING CALLED TO BE AN APOSTLE DOES NOT CALL YOU TO DO MIRACLES BUT AGAIN, SCRIPTURE SAYS OTHERWISE:



    These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. - Matthew 10: 5-8 (NIV)


    HEAL THE SICK, RAISE THE DEAD, DRIVE OUT DEMONS. THESE ARE THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES, AS DEMONSTRATED IN THE BOOK OF THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES.



    JESUS DOES NOT CHANGE BUT CLEARLY THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE NEW AND OLD COVENANTS.



    YOU MENTION ROMANS BUT MISUNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE.



    Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. - Romans 16: 7 (NIV)


    THESE TWO WERE NOT APOSTLES - THEY WERE CONSIDERED OUTSTANDING BY THE APOSTLES. IF YOU READ THE FOOTNOTE FOR EXAMPLE ON THIS VERSE IT SAYS:


    Romans 16:7 Or are esteemed by


    THESE TWO WERE ESTEEMED BY THE APOSTLES, THEY WERE NOT CONSIDERED APOSTLES.



    I HAVE PROVIDED NOTHING BUT SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT THIS POINT. IF YOU REMAIN UNCONVINCED I ASK YOU WHO BESTOWS THE OFFICE OF APOSTLE TODAY?



    THANKS AND GOD BLESS.
     
  6. OK, thank you for that. I still respect the Reverend position and any position that does the work of the ministry. I don't have the position to correct here or even suggest. Out of respect I will discuss but as a Reverend, your given to be right, and if it's not right (As we all miss it) then the Lord shows or corrects if needed. I am sure there are people in your life that you look up to and it's those divine connections that matter.

    However if you want to really examine this, I don't mind.

    We agree on:
    1)
    The Word is complete, the only revelation given is of the Word we already have. Everything God gives us has to line up with Scriptures.

    2) There are 12 Apostles. There are 12 seats for them along with the 12 tribes of Israel making a total of 24.

    I think this is important. It removes a bunch of junk we don't have to wade through.

    Resurrection:

    You say that the resurrection needed to be witnessed. Many saw Jesus after but not all Apostles. We know Paul saw Jesus so you would count that. The issue I have is that we all should be a witness to the resurrection and not just Apostles. We know to see Jesus personally does not qualify you as an Apostle, since the 500 did see him.
    I would actually need a scripture that was very specific that says this is a qualification to be an Apostle. We don't have that scripture but we are told He gave some Apostles, some Pastors. So the qualification would be that you are called and given.

    HOWEVER: The original 12 were Witness to Christ Resurrection and were appointed by the Lord Jesus in Person. Though it does not say that happened with Paul, I think we can safely assume that it did without adding to scriptures. The one thing that does support this is what Jesus said.

    Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    The they which we believe on their word was the those with Jesus + Paul.

    Rom 16:7

    This is going to depend on how you understand episēmos. The other argument is whether Junia was actually a female if an apostle.
    I see how your reading it and it makes sense enough to me the way your reading it. So, I'll give you this one.

    I will give you these, I believe your reading it as the scripture says, I read it a bit different but I find no fault.
    I will now attempt to prove there are still Apostles or at least the ministry calling today.

    Barnabas
    Was an Apostle, not part of the Lords 12, but an Apostle. No Miracle I know of was recorded from Barnabas, but still rightfully had the title Apostle. (Acts 14 somewhere)

    EPH 4:
    I already gave the point that the Lord gave some Apostles, and if He gave Apostles to help us, then He gave Pastors also. Nothing mentioned about any of those offices being removed. All those offices are still important.

    Titus:

    Fellow servant with Paul, Those that traveled with Titus called Apostles.
    2Co 8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers (apostolos) of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

    The KJV sort of beats this up with lots of added words. It may read Our brethren the Apostles of the Churches.

    Epaphroditus Was an Apostle.

    Php 2:25
    Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger (apostolos), and he that ministered to my wants.

    YLT:
    Php 2:25 And I thought it necessary Epaphroditus--my brother, and fellow-workman, and fellow-soldier, and your apostle and servant to my need--to send unto you,

    I have given you at least two that were Apostles, did the work of the Apostle (Sent one or one with a message.)
    Epaphroditus and Barnabas Were both named Apostles, Both did not see the Lord Jesus resurrection (At least we are not told they saw Jesus) Both did the Work of the Apostle.

    Which brings me back to my point. Apostle is a ministry calling. Sent one.

    So we have 12 Apostles of the lamb and some extra Apostles running around. (Rev 21:14)

    I showed you two extra Apostles, now to find why you have an issue with still having Apostles:

    A foundation laid which we just established does not mean you throw the tools away. A hammer will hammer in nails, but it also can pull out nails. There is no reference that the Apostle and Prophet office are no longer needed, it just says that the prophets (The only OT ministry) and Apostle (NT Word giving ministry) Laid a foundation.

    Sent ones to preach the Word today have to be called Apostles because the Word Apostolos Actually means sent one with a message. That is all it means. It's root is apostellō which means to be sent.

    So if anyone is sent to start a work, then It's called Apostle.

    Hint: Missionaries...........

    So what is the hang up? Title V.S the name.


    So since anyone sent on a mission can be called an Apostle by name, we must be getting hung up on the office and calling that would be a title. Like the video you posted where you can buy a Title called Apostle for 50.00

    Christ is also just a word that means anointed. However it's also used as a Title of someone or the Hebrew root Messiah.

    I can say I am Christ and be correct, because I am anointed of God. However correct grammar wise it may be, it's not appropriate.
    Christ is someones title based off Messiah or Anointed King. I should say I have an chrisma from God. That would be more correct.

    I gave two people who were Apostles not part of the 12. Epaphroditus and Barnabas

    So what is the difference of someone called by God to go out and start a work in a bad place, empowered to do that work and have God grow it. Then Pastor's come in to Shepard the churches started by that work. That is what Apostles do (Missionaries) It takes a calling and the power of God to do this right. The calling has to be there to be sent out or it flops on it's face and gets in error.

    Long enough Brother..................

    We can talk about the Prophet next. That will be more interesting because the Lord told me I would be used off and on in that office and to feel the shift in anointing and step into it. I am not a prophet, but I have been allowed to step into that office.

    I know more about the NT Prophet than I do the Apostle........ (sent ones)

    Your blessed and thank you for the time and effort. I know it takes thought to make these post and time. I am grateful for both.

    Michael.
     
  7. My brother,



    I appreciate the respect. Iron sharpens iron.



    We do agree on the two pints you outline.



    I do not say that an apostle must have witnessed the resurrection, scripture says that in the acts verses I posted already. As pointed out it is the resurrected Christ, not the act of the resurrection. I think those verses are pretty explicit. You said many saw Jesus but not all of the apostles but again scripture disagrees:



    For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas,and then to the Twelve. - 1Corinthians 15: 5 (NIV)


    You say that we all should be witness and I get that but now you are talking about apples and oranges. Scripture was not talking about a spiritual sense of seeing the resurrected Christ but the actual resurrected Christ.



    You say that you would need a very specific scripture but cmon, doctrine is not established that way for everything else you believe. The language of the rapture can be considered vague yet Christians believe in that as doctrine. Hermeneutics requires an examination of the entire context of the Bible. You cannot pledge to stand by ephesians four and ignore ephesians two. Even the verse you stand on requires your interpretation. That verse does not specifically say that apostles were an office or that it must stand throughout time. It merely says that he gave some. Heck the word some actually can be easily interpreted as a small number. The verse does not give a time frame. It does say for the perfecting of the saints and we know that is not accomplished until the second coming. You choose to interpret it as you do and I do as I do. I however use the remainder of scripture as context to support my position. Even under your interpretation, who now gives and calls? God i assume but how do we prove that someone claiming that mantle was actually called and given? We cannot because the apostolic age ended. You say that Paul was either not witness to the resurrected Christ, which we know he was on the Damascus road or that he was not appointed by the Lord yet here is the scripture refuting that:



    But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” - Acts 9: 15-16 (NIV)



    On the point of extra apostles, my argument was not that there were not other apostles during the apostolic age but rather when that age ended the office closed. The apostles laid the foundation of the church and once that foundation was laid, there was no need for the office and no way to verify the calling.



    I get your point on "sent ones" but that's not how those verses have been exposited throughout history. The apostles are listed first because of their importance, because they are the foundation. Not the tools, the foundation.



    John Gills exposition:



    As before the apostle gives an account of the various different gifts of the Spirit, qualifying men for service in the church of Christ, here he enumerates the several offices and officers: first apostles;as were the twelve disciples, and Paul the apostle; men that were immediately sent by Christ himself, and had their commission and doctrine directly from him; and a power of working miracles, to confirm the truth of their mission and ministry; they were sent into all the world to preach the Gospel, to plant churches everywhere, and to ordain officers in them; they were not confined to any particular church, but had power and authority in all the churches, to preach the word, administer ordinances, advise, counsel, direct, reprove, and censure



    Adam Clarke:



    First, apostles - Αποστολους, from απο from, and στελλο, I send; to send from one person to another, and from one place to another. Persons immediately designated by Christ, and sent by him to preach the Gospel to all mankind.



    The apostles are the ones who hold the highest place and had the most power. This is actually the argument of the heretics known as the New Apostolic Reformation. They spread dominionist theology by claiming they are in a position of authority granted to them by Christ, to which we cannot prove of course.



    As for the "hang up", it is the abuse of the title. That was the primary argument in the devotional. That if someone feels the need to call themselves an apostle or prophet, they probably are not. I actually believe there are stronger arguments for the office of prophet, since the gift of prophecy is still in use. The apostle office is a slam dunk to me. I was discussing the prophet office with someone yesterday and she said, what about David Wilkerson, he was a prophet. My answer was Wilkerson makes my point because while he clearly moved in the prophetic, he never would have the arrogance or presumption to call himself a prophet.



    That was really what this was about. Recently there was a horrible story of a pastor who killed himself in front of his mother a few weeks after the sudden death of his wife. He claimed he was hearing his wifes voice for weeks after her passing. When you dig deeper into where he pastored it was an organization run by someone claiming to be an apostle. He has a whole team of people claiming to be prophets, including the wife who passed. Yet no one saw any of this coming? Really? When you trivialize spiritual warfare you end up like the seven sons of sceva. When you profane the holy things of God, these things do not surprise me as much as they sadden me.



    I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe in the charismania being passed off as a move of God. That includes someone who feels the need to use an office title unused for centuries, which no one can prove the calling thereof.



    Before we get into prophets, i recognize there is a stronger argument against what I wrote than for apostle because the gift is so clearly still in operation. But that gift is now described as:



    But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. - 1Corinthians 14: 3 (NIV)




    I hope we can agree this is not the description of the office of Prophet as we see in the OT. That is my overall point. Jesus Christ was the last person to hold the office of Prophet. Once He left us His Word, we no longer need the office of prophet because we know what sayeth the Lord. When I see people abusing this title today I see they are trying to create the aura that they are like Elijah or Isaiah, when that office is simply closed.



    Now that said, the gift of prophecy is in operation if it is used to strengthen, exhort or encourage. You can say someone moves in the prophetic, or has the gift of prophecy, no problem. I can even call you a prophet if i feel that coming from you. My objection is to the self promotion to try and make yourself look like someone holding an office that ceased to exist thousands of years ago and was last held by Christ Himself.



    Thank you sir.



    Anthony.
     
  8. Finally found it. As you know, when it comes to doctrines or a reason a persons see's one thing when you see something else it's because of a rooted belief that is helping the person understand the scripture. This can be good, or this can throw things off a bit.

    I personally can not just remove 1 of the Ministry offices. Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher. The whole issue is not the fact there were other Apostles besides the 12, I showed two extra ones and others that can be argued. The issue is the place of authority that a Apostle is perceived to have and a perceived power they may have. That is what we are really dealing with, not so much scripture at this point.

    Your view also tries to put a stop on certain groups that are in error such as the Apostolic Reformation. By proving there are not more Apostle offices today, you better combat all these "Wannabe" Apostles who are not Apostles.

    This is where your belief is coming from, a position to keep error from spreading.

    Epaphroditus and Barnabas Were Apostles. They went and started works just like Paul and worked with Paul. They don't have a seat with the 12, but their ministry was the same.

    Your concern about these so called "Apostles" with all authority Paul did address.

    Paul tells us exactly what a Apostle does:
    1Co 3:4
    For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
    Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    Apostles: start works and lay foundations that others build on. This is not foundation in new scripture, as all the 12 were not called to add to scripture. This is an actually church that is started in a dark area.
    If it were meaning build upon scripture, then Apollos could not build on that not being part of the 12. No, Paul says that no matter What Apostle starts it, the foundation is still built upon Jesus Christ the chief corner stone.
    So no matter what Apostle started it, no matter who built after, it's foundation is Jesus Christ.

    That is what the special call of an apostle is. A person anointed and equipped by God to go out and start works of the Lord, building on the master foundation which is Christ Jesus.

    Missionaries!!!!!

    This has nothing to do with the 12 who some were called to add to scriptures. That age is over and the 12 seats are already taken in heaven.

    Just because someone misuse the office title, does not remove the real Anointed calling of the Lord Jesus to appoint some and empower some to go out and start works that others can build upon. Apostle is someone equipped to do just that. Not just anyone can go start a Work, not even a Pastor, Prophet, teacher. There has to be a calling and office to be equipped to start new works.

    Missionaries!!! is what some call them today.

    Paul said despise not prophecy!!!! Why? Because some had taken it saying things the Lord never said and it irritated everyone else. So Paul said prove all things, Hold onto those things which are true. Don't just do away with the gift, there is the real.

    All prophecy must be judged and proved. Just because we have 100 bozo fake Prophecies going around, does not indicate we teach there is no such thing as Prophecy. What others do does not determine what the Word of God says, for let God be true, and every man a liar, there is the real still there.

    Apostles do not have authority over another persons works. Paul did not even do that as Peter has his own Work. Apostles are not in charge of anything but that which the Lord gave them. We never see Paul move into Peters Territory because Peter was sent to the Jews. Peter mentions Paul, and says his writing was valid and hard for the unlearned to understand. For the most part, Paul and Peter stayed out of each others hair.

    John also had his group, we don't see Paul involved with his Group either. John sent letters to his people, we have them.

    Any thought that someone titled "Apostle" would have power over another mans foundation in Christ Jesus is not in scriptures. That is not part of the Apostle's Job to be overseer of another mans work. That is what Paul said, I lay a foundation, but someone else can oversee and build upon. Like a Pastor who is called to run a church and organize the sheep.


    We have the foundation of the Prophets in the OT and those Apostles called to write scriptures. Not all of the original 12 were Apostles by ministry calling. They were all sent by Jesus though and called the Apostles of the Lamb or the Ones Sent by Jesus.

    If you still want to call them missionaries, then fine by me.

    OK, I am not a fan of Hermeneutics, or any bible commentary. I don't mind looking at what others had written to compare notes, but we have the Same Holy Spirit and teacher. I really am not a fan of Hermeneutics. We compare scripture with scripture and listen to the Holy Spirit.

    I like Strongs (Who was not a monotheist or Trinitarian if that is what you call it.) I look at Thayer. These are just dictionaries and the definition of the words given by implication and how they were used. They are not just actual Hebrew and Greek Words, but have Strongs and Thayers own spin on what the Word could have meant.

    So no matter what spin we put on Apostle, it's root and make up just means someone sent with a message.

    Prophets!!!

    This is long enough already. I'll cover my revealed understanding of what a Prophets ministry is. I have actually operated in this office, though the Lord never said I was a Prophet, He just said that office will operate from time to time and feel the anointing shift and have faith to step into it when it does. This was to fill a need for that body I was teaching, not that I deserved or am called to be a prophet.
    It takes a lot of years of obedience and understanding to be actually be eligible to fill this Office full time. Something I have yet to do.
    Even if Eligible, you still need the calling and placement of the Head of the Church. Jesus.........

    quick run down:

    1) Prophets in the OT had the ability to hear God for the people. There were lots of prophets and most did not contribute to scriptures.

    2) Prophets today are about the same, they have the ability to hear God for the people, but................. not without a witness. Believers today have the Holy Spirit also, so any prophet with a "Thus saith the Lord" would have to bare witness with the other person to be valid. So more of a confirmation ministry.

    (In other words if a prophet said the Lord wants you to be a clown in a circus and that is the first you ever heard of it, then discount that.)

    3) Prophets do not give World Prophecies that would effect all churches. Prophets are tied to their place given. No prophet can ever dictate over the direction given to a Pastor for his own flock.

    (I watched a video of a guy who fasted for 40 days.......... (Sure you did buddy) and using the fast as validation for his WORLD prophecy told about how the dollar was going to decline and bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.................. just garbage and a waste of a good fast. He said this was for all the churches in the World. Not happening, that is not the prophets ministry.)

    4) Prophets often have revelation of the Word in (Areas- not many teachers though) and operate in certain gifts. The prophet ministry is a strange office because to be valid, the gifts have to operate. It's not like someone starting churches, being a Pastor, teaching or out on the streets Evangelizing. Unlike the other Offices, the gifts have to be present for the Office to Work.

    5) Prophets edify. Doom and gloom prophets are not prophets. A real prophet that gets a word from the Lord will also give the solution. That is how God operates. They just don't give a list of bad stuff with no solution. That is no prophet, just a confused person.

    6) It's common for Prophets to operate in Prophecy, Healing, Spiritual discernment, Words of Wisdom and Words of Knowledge, interpretation of tongues. (If allowed during service) Any believer at any time can operate in all these, but the gifts are normally there every time the Prophet steps up to minister.

    7)
    Even if called a prophet, the anointing to do the office must come on the prophet. No prophet can just operate that office at will. The calling must be there, and the anointing must come as the Holy Spirit wills. There are times a Prophet needs to just teach, so the teaching anointing will be there. Nobody can just force the Office to work even if called. Just more often than not the Office will be there at some point for someone that is called to be a Prophet.


    My example:

    While preaching (Teaching) whatever................ I felt the anointing shift and I knew it was what the Lord said that I would be allowed to operate in that Prophet office. Just then I was someplace else (Not really but it's all I saw) I was walking through a house and looking under beds and into closets.

    I felt a lot of fear just come in waves over me. (Not that I was afraid myself, I was feeling what someone else was experiencing) I saw these imp like things staring at me and a bigger dark shape looking at me.

    They were in the room also. (Stupid devils, it figures) I then went to the bathroom to look behind the shower curtain and then I was telling my son to just stay by my side. I knew the boy, he was sitting in the pews with his mom. It then ended. This all happened it a second though it seemed like minutes while I was in this place, vision or whatever you want to call it.

    This was a women in my pews, I saw the devils enforcing this fear of someone being in her house since she lived alone, I felt what she felt, and I saw her bedroom, hall and bathroom. She was going through this fear ritual every time she came home from some place. She thought someone might have broken in and was waiting for her and her son.

    At the end of service I asked if I may talk with her. I told her the Lord showed me that she has fear every night about someone coming and breaking in to harm her and her son. I described her bedroom perfectly and the bathroom and described her actions. She started crying right away and I told her that the Lord said not to fear. I then told them devils I saw to stop and cease from their operations. No more spirits of fear running around. The Lord delivered her that day and she said from then on she never had a concern about someone breaking in and harming them.

    It was all in the mind of course, but enforced by real devils. I will be glad when the Lord locks them all up and turns the oven on. serves em right!!!

    Sorry so long.

    Thank you for sharing with me. I believe your ministry will be filled with more anointing and power to reach even the hardest of people and coldest of hearts. The anointing on your life will break that heavy chain on the hearts that need to be free in Christ Jesus.


    Michael.
     
  9. Just so you know, I am going away for a week tomorrow. I just posted another devotional, less controversial I pray, lol.



    I am ready to put the apostle argument to rest. I take little issue with you wanting to refer to missionaries as apostles. I disagree, but i try not to debate minutia that distracts us from things of eternal value. Is it your contention that only missionaries are apostles, or are there others as well?





    Hermeneutics is required. It is not commentary. It is a set of guiding rules and principles regarding the interpretation of the Bible. Without a firm grounding in solid hermeneutics you end up with all sorts of heretical teachings. Not every interpretation is correct. Of course we have the Holy Spirit but God is a God of order. The Bible says, "and judas went and hung himself." You cannot say that God must be instructing us to hang ourselves. That is an incorrect interpretation to say the least.



    I might cite a commentary because if there is general agreement i value it. Far too often i hear people dismissing commentary that has stood the test of centuries in favor of their own opinion. I am real leery about that. But ultimately, commentaries are merely a tool. Hermeneutics however, is an essential guideline for approaching the Word.




    Prophets -



    I like your humility regarding calling yourself a prophet. That was exactly my point. I was a little taken aback however at your notion that a pastor can fill the office of prophet. That is nowhere in scripture and in fact, the prophet office is listed as being above that of teacher/pastor. But this is the faulty teachings in many churches. The pastor is not the anointed of God - we all are! He is due double honor but only if he is following the Word! He is responsible for shepherding, not lording power over people. Instead we have all of these little boys playing marbles with the diamonds of God (Paul Washer quote). They appoint this one an apostle and that one a prophet when they do not have the authority to do so and do not understand the spiritual danger they invite. Now let me try and respond point by point, my answer in italics




    1) Prophets in the OT had the ability to hear God for the people. There were lots of prophets and most did not contribute to scriptures.



    agreed


    2)Prophets today are about the same, they have the ability to hear God for the people, but................. not without a witness. Believers today have the Holy Spirit also, so any prophet with a "Thus saith the Lord" would have to bare witness with the other person to be valid. So more of a confirmation ministry.


    We all have the ability to hear from God. We all have His revelatory will in the Bible. That is why the office of Prophet is obsolete. The gift is now in action to strengthen, encourage and comfort (1cor 14)3)Prophets do not give World Prophecies that would effect all churches. Prophets are tied to their place given. No prophet can ever dictate over the direction given to a Pastor for his own flock.


    If he holds the office as you claim, the bible places him above the pastor/teacher role. Again, i think you are actually speaking about the gift of prophecy, not the office. 4)Prophets often have revelation of the Word in (Areas- not many teachers though) and operate in certain gifts. The prophet ministry is a strange office because to be valid, the gifts have to operate. It's not like someone starting churches, being a Pastor, teaching or out on the streets Evangelizing. Unlike the other Offices, the gifts have to be present for the Office to Work.



    Not sure of the point here.


    5)Prophets edify. Doom and gloom prophets are not prophets. A real prophet that gets a word from the Lord will also give the solution. That is how God operates. They just don't give a list of bad stuff with no solution. That is no prophet, just a confused person.



    No argument, strengthen, encourage and comfort. It is the gift of course, not the office.


    :^)




    6)It's common for Prophets to operate in Prophecy, Healing, Spiritual discernment, Words of Wisdom and Words of Knowledge, interpretation of tongues. (If allowed during service) Any believer at any time can operate in all these, but the gifts are normally there every time the Prophet steps up to minister.



    Not according to Scripture. We all have gifts, no one has all the gifts. They are given as the Spirit determines, not the prophet-person with gift of prophecy



    7) Even if called a prophet, the anointing to do the office must come on the prophet. No prophet can just operate that office at will. The calling must be there, and the anointing must come as the Holy Spirit wills. There are times a Prophet needs to just teach, so the teaching anointing will be there. Nobody can just force the Office to work even if called. Just more often than not the Office will be there at some point for someone that is called to be a Prophet.



    The "Anointing" is a Pentecostal belief that is not really supported in scripture. All the saints are anointed. I think it is just a semantical argument. They could have chosen a better word. But i remain concerned about this notion that the prophet wields all the gifts and just has to shift from one anointing to another. What scriptural basis are you using for this position?




    My example: While preaching (Teaching) whatever................ I felt the anointing shift and I knew it was what the Lord said that I would be allowed to operate in that Prophet office. Just then I was someplace else (Not really but it's all I saw) I was walking through a house and looking under beds and into closets. I felt a lot of fear just come in waves over me. (Not that I was afraid myself, I was feeling what someone else was experiencing) I saw these imp like things staring at me and a bigger dark shape looking at me.They were in the room also. (Stupid devils, it figures) I then went to the bathroom to look behind the shower curtain and then I was telling my son to just stay by my side. I knew the boy, he was sitting in the pews with his mom. It then ended. This all happened it a second though it seemed like minutes while I was in this place, vision or whatever you want to call it.This was a women in my pews, I saw the devils enforcing this fear of someone being in her house since she lived alone, I felt what she felt, and I saw her bedroom, hall and bathroom. She was going through this fear ritual every time she came home from some place. She thought someone might have broken in and was waiting for her and her son. At the end of service I asked if I may talk with her. I told her the Lord showed me that she has fear every night about someone coming and breaking in to harm her and her son. I described her bedroom perfectly and the bathroom and described her actions. She started crying right away and I told her that the Lord said not to fear. I then told them devils I saw to stop and cease from their operations. No more spirits of fear running around. The Lord delivered her that day and she said from then on she never had a concern about someone breaking in and harming them. It was all in the mind of course, but enforced by real devils. I will be glad when the Lord locks them all up and turns the oven on. serves em right!!!



    Wow, awesome story. Now here is how I see it. You did not shift into any anointing. God gave you a word of knowledge or prophecy if you prefer. You were able to use that word to minister to someone who desperately needed it. That is how the Holy Spirit uses the gifts. I have no issue with that. If God chose to use you every week like this I would say you operate in the prophetic or that you clearly have the gift of the word of knowledge. I would not say that you hold the office of prophet because that office is still held by Christ.



    Now, that said, if someone else wanted to say hey - that guy Mike is a Prophet! I have no issue with that. I was speaking against people self promoting, trying to make themselves out to be a modern day Elijah.



    Sorry so long



    No worries!




    Thank you for sharing with me. I believe your ministry will be filled with more anointing and power to reach even the hardest of people and coldest of hearts. The anointing on your life will break that heavy chain on the hearts that need to be free in Christ Jesus.



    Brother, I am amazed when God uses me for anything. I appreciate your kind words. It seems we are not that far apart. What you view as the office i view as the gifts. The only real disagreement i see is in the power of the pastor and the notion that the "prophet" can go in and out of all of the gifts. Not too bad. This is why we talk about the things of God. We both want to see Him glorified and i think our debate has done that sir.
     
  10. I see our differences!!! Praise God.

    We are talking about the wrong stuff. We need to go over the anointing and what exactly that is.

    Once a person gets born again, is that all the Holy Spirit they get? Or like some Pentecostals say, we also need to Baptized with power from on High "After" we are born again?

    I am not Pentecostal, but that is the general idea.

    In other words, once we are saved, is that about all the Anointing we are going to get? Is there a separate experience in being filled with Power on High?

    Keep in mind with that office there has to be gifts, just like you mentioned with the Apostle office. Though I showed two Apostles that just were sent out and no recorded gifts. Not that there were none, but none recorded.

    You have a great week and the Lord meet you to meet others in Victory that we have in Christ Jesus.

    Michael.
     

Share This Page