Destiny Or Free Will?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Big Moose, Apr 11, 2014.


  1. He was not sorry for what man did, What man did Grieved him. He was sorry he actually made man. That is scripture.

    He had to kill everyone and start over, had it not be for Noah, it would have been finished. He rather not have made man, than to do and watch what he had to do. It bothered him that much, so much there is a rainbow in the throne room.
     
  2. Yes, but God does not change his mind. On the topic of free will and destiny, I would say it is half and half. While God might have made it destiny because he already knows the future, it is still free will to the person, because without free will their would be no point in God not just sending everyone to heaven. We are on this planet so we can make the decision to accept God into our lives, i.e. free will. It is all very confusing and is why it is such a brought up question, but i'm glad that you asked it because it's good to have reminders on topics like this.
     
  3. It's a tough topic if................. We just assume things about God.

    Both Old Doctrines 1500's of Destination V.S Foreknowledge (Free will, but God knows anyway) has been battled, both sides showing scriptures to counter the other side.

    Both Doctrines, try to keep their doctrines based on mans idea of Sovereignty. God's Sovereignty. Neither doctrine believes they can just accept the scriptures of each side because it damages their View of What God should be.

    The Lord ever change his mind? All the time.

    Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
    Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

    At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
    (Jer 18:7-10)


    We see God here change his mind big time......... Good thing for them.

    Eli:
    1Sa 2:30
    Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

    God changed his mind, Bad for Eli.

    Hezekiah:
    In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
    (Isa 38:1)

    Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
    (Isa 38:5)

    God changed his mind, good thing for Hezekiah.

    Joel tells us God changes his mind:

    And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
    (Joe 2:13-14)

    Nineveh

    Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
    (Jon 3:9-10)


    God changed his mind, good thing for Nineveh.

    Jerusalem:
    1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

    God changed his mind, good thing for Jerusalem.


    If God was a fortune teller, He would never have to change his mind. Even when he predestined something and said He would not turn from it............... He always changed his mind if man repented first.

    This is just one little topic about God changing his mind.

    hence why God being a fortune teller is wrong and God predestining everything according to a man is wrong. There is a predestination though and a spoken word. Despite what any man does though, what God said will come to pass. Hence God does not have fortune telling ability over a man or a predestination. He is God, like us, because he made us like him.

    This is why the debate, because both sides can't admit God does not predestine or know what your going to be doing 10 years from now. If you stay on God plan and path, then God has every single even already lined up for you. Get off that path, it's dark and out of God's plan.

    Any questions............ I have tons more scripture.

    be blessed and thank you for asking.
     
  4. Big Moose, since God knew before the world began who would react in accepting Christ as their saviour he saved them and then called them to come, which he knew they would as Jesus tells us....

    Joh_6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Since the Father called those who he already knew would believe, they will come to Jesus. The "which" would be the "calling, and the salvation" In 2 Peter it tells us that God has already given to us all things that pertain the life and Godliness, and we experience these after we find out what he has already given us by faith. Having salvation is useless to the ones called until they find out what God had already given them. Knowing is every thing.
     
  5. MichaelH, do you believe God knows what you are going to do before you do it? Does he not inhabit all time from the beginning to the end, and all eternity to where he sees all things. It is not a hard thing for the Lord to choose his Church from his foreknowledge of knowing all things before we choose him. God was so sure of our actions before the world began he even saved us when we were still sinners.....

    Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Notice there is no mention of faith here at all even though we know we are saved by grace through faith. The Lord knew what we would do so he saved us even when we were still yet dead in ours sins, and raised us up with Christ and has made us sit together with him in him. Now thats grace!
     
  6. Yes however knowing does not equal causing and that is the substance of the debate.
     
  7. Brother Paul. If you had $10 in your pocket, and did not know you had it and you were starving and you were going to die if you did not get something to eat real soon. That $10 in your pocket does not do you any good until you find out you have it.
    Jesus tells us if we continue in his Word then we will "know" the truth, and that truth will set us free. Truth by it self has never set anyone free. It is not until you know it that it sets you free.
     
  8. Even some folks in my church speak like you do. So, I will cut some slack here.

    God was sure of our actions he saved us when we were sinners before the World began............

    no, we were not around before the World began. If God knew at that time under a billion of us would make it, but 6 billion more would suffer eternally and yet made man anyway despite that knowledge, then God is evil.

    Zero scripture supports he knew our actions at that time or even knew us at that time.

    Adam becomes living at the time he was made.
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    (Gen 2:7)

    The spirit of man is made once the embryo is started.
    Zec 12:1
    The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    God's Call and plan is while in the Womb.
    Jer 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.

    3 scriptures that we exist and the plan of God made while we are formed in the womb. ZERO that any plan was made for us Before that, or that we even existed before that.


    No scripture that God lives some time bubble from beginning to end, no scripture saying He lives in eternity to see all things. Lots of scripture saying he knows things now, such as the hairs on your head, and number of stars.

    1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our fait
    Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
    (1Jn 5:5)

    Those that are born again, born of God get the plan, it was not that God was just sure of OUR actions but of the whole world might accept him.

    Not just for us, everyone:
    1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    You don't take a few scriptures and make something up, Ignoring other scriptures. Every single scripture in God's word matches perfectly all other scriptures.

    It was not that God just foreknew us................ He gave the same grace to everyone. Not just for our sins, but for everyone on the planet. If it was just a selected few, then John would have never written that.

    Every living thing on this planet bows to the name of Jesus, by whom everyone was predestined to be under. Some receive Jesus some do not.

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    (Heb 1:2)


    Before the World was made, God's plan was to put everything under his own Son, everything was made for and through Jesus.


    because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
    (Col 1:16-17)

    Every person created, everything you see was created IN Christ Jesus. All things in Christ Jesus have consisted. Not just us, but everyone before the World was even formed.

    YOU HAVE TO TAKE ALL THE VERSES INTO ACCOUNT!!!!

    And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
    (Gen 18:20-21)

    How the Lord find out if the cry of Sodom matched the sin? What did the Lord do? Use his outside of time knowing from start to finish? Was he in the Star Ship Enterprise and used some time warp ability to know? Did God cause Sodom to sin by his divine and Sovereign plan?

    NO, He Came down personally and looked!!!! (Same with the tower of Babel, He went down to look)

    Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

    How did God know Abraham would not withhold anything from him? God say, HA, I already knew, I live outside of time..... WEEEEEEEEE

    NO, God knew by Abraham's actions.............. Just as God said.


    I have told you twice now, If you keep this up, then I have no choice but to file you away with the rest of the confused who believe God's word contradicts in places. This forum is full of them, don't join their ranks.
     
  9. So, I am seeing you believe the Lord does not know what your actions are going to be until you do them. Is that right?
    I surely don't know what I am going to do until I do them, but the Lord surely knows all things I will do or he would not be God. All men can be saved as all have the same opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel. The grace of God to brings salvation has appeared unto all men, but not all men will accept his offer. For as many as received him to them gave he power to become a son of God. Hearing the Gospel gives power (faith) to become a son of God, but not every one will not exercise that power to do so. The Lord knows all that are his, which he foreknew before the world began and Jesus confirms this by telling us all the Father has given him will come to him and he will not loose one. When do you think God the Father gave us into Jesus?
     
  10. Some scripture would be nice to back up, "God knows what you are going to do before you do it". All that I have found, and I look for them, have to do with a predestined plan that we can follow if we get right with God.
    On Eph 2:5, it clearly states "when we were dead in sins", we had not sinned before we were born, for we are born into sin, so these verses talk about grace given to sinners. Later in verse 10, he speaks only of good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. This still fits with a predestined plan for us, which we need to follow, or choose not to.
    I would rather see someone on the everything known, predestined camp take some of these verses Michael has shown and speak to how they can fit into your way of thinking. Reconcile some of these scriptures please.
     
  11. Wow I thought I had missed something. I looked John 17 up to confirm what you said Jesus said, "Jesus confirms this by telling us all the Father has given him will come to him and he will not loose one."
    Nowhere does it say all the Father has given him will come to him. Read it again. He says those you gavest me, I have kept. In fact, John 17:20 says
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    Why did he need to pray for these he was given, as if there was a chance to lose them to the world. Secondly, he prays for those "which shall believe on me through their word". As in have not yet believed. Interesting also, I just noticed the last part "through their word". Not God's word. Their word. They must choose to profess and believe on Jesus. Thank you for leading me to this. The Spirit works in wondrous ways.
     
  12. Undoubtedly! And how does that address what I said? Did God cause Adolph Hitler to be tempted to sin the abominable sins that he eventually committed? Yes or no? Is God the progenitor and author of his sins?
     
  13. " Did God cause Adolph Hitler to be tempted"

    God tempts no man. Adolf Hitler was the author of his own sin, nobody else.
    Though there were hundreds of thousands all around the world who cheered him on.
    When it comes time for judgement they will all be judged alike.

    This is to the forum in general, not you in particular Bro Paul.
    What would you have God do? Strike every sinner dead? The world would be empty of mankind in hours.

    Back to free will. If you are free, you are free to do evil. God cannot interfere unless asked to, otherwise
    free will is meaningless.

    God also has free will, and when asked to intervene He can say 'no'.
     
    MichaelH likes this.
  14. I agree Glomung...
     
  15. That sounds a bit better................


    NO, The Father Gave Jesus the 12, and Jesus said all are OK, but the one that scripture might be fulfilled.

    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    What do I think, I think you need to compare all the scriptures.

    Here is another scripture that gets misquoted:
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    (John 6:44)

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    (John 6:37-39)

    Jesus said, all that the Father has given him, He shall lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day.........
    people forget this verse though which matches and tons of other verses......

    What was the condition that had to be in place for the Father to draw and give to Jesus?


    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    (Joh 6:40)

    How were they able to see and believe on the Son........... Rom 10:15-17 However, Jesus says it first.

    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
    (Joh 6:44-45)

    God draws them by the Word and hearing the Word. Not that God just predestines a bunch to believe before the foundation of the World. That is nonsense, and I am giving you exactly what Jesus said about how this works.

    Rom 10:14
    How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    All scriptures must match.........

    You did better, but this is the 3rd time I have had to explain............

    (this post got formatted funny, don't feel like fixing it.)
     
  16. Both can't be true. I go agree that you like Israel whom the verse is about can't figure God out or have his knowledge. Ill obey scripture and not be ignorant of the will of God and by the Holy Spirit know all thing in all spiritual wisdom and understanding. You just don't quote one and forget 10. I will go through your whole post and point where you ignored other scriptures if you like. It could be you might have changed your ways and can learn. I hope only the best.
     
  17. #377 MichaelH, May 10, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2014
    Never mind Major, ignore the above post..... My Tapatalk whatever I keep forgetting to reverse to the end of the thread. I should have nabbed ya before you bailed. My bad, I am sorry

    Umm, Glomung does have revelation of things. good post.....
     
  18. I was using my memory when I posted, I guess I should have used the exact verses I was referring to. Sorry.....

    Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    Now the question should be, when did the Father give us to Jesus? We get a hint to his in this verse......

    Psa 2:6 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill."
    Psa 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
    Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.
    Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." (ESV)

    Here is a picture of God the Father in the beginning turning to his Son and telling him to ask me for the nations, and I will give them to you for your inheritance. The nations are people that would make up his Church. We know Jesus asked for this as it tells us in the book of Revelations........

    Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
     
  19. God tempts no man, and every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lusts. Man has a free choice in what he does. He can choose life or death, and God will protect his right to go to hell if he wants to. We are the ones that make that choice to believe, yet God knew from the beginning what our choices would be.
     
  20. #380 CCW95A, May 10, 2014
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
    I think what you are missing here is the fact that God already knows every thought, and every choice you will make even before he created the worlds. You do not know what you will do, but he does. Nothing is going to happen outside of what the Lord knows already. We make our choices based on the Gospel being preached to us in this time based world. In eternity God already sees our actions as being done. This is how, and why God choose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.....

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
     

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