I'm curious to know what you think 1 Thess 4:16-18 suggests, bro.
Deliverance From or Through The Tribulation?
- Thread starter Phoneman777
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I don't think you understand the nature of having realised you as a Christian may feel when you realised you have missed the calling to which you were called for .
The 5 foolish virgins were by the time they were ready in their eyes were not RECOGNISABLE as the bride and were barred from "the MARRIAGE"
MATHEW 25. and they heard the words "I know ye not"
The wicked on that terrible day of judgement are barred from the KINGDOM for they were not recognisable as children of God and they heard the words "I never knew you"
If any one who was not ready and are "spewed out into the great Tribulation" rev 2 . Then they who were not wholly sanctified before are tried and proved through it .
It is projected that as you are BORNagain we shall reign with Christ .
Not so .
They who suffer WITH Him "we shall also reign with Him" It follows by the logic of scripture that they who don't wont.
For there are people who will have crowns and those who will not .You have to earn the crowns and there are different crowns for different works .
There are those "BEFORE the throne" and there are those " AROUND the throne " and there is the Bride and the "friends of the Bride" John the Baptist counted himself but a friend of the groom .
There is a table and feast of the Lord. Some will be 'closer' than others .
ALL 12 disciples were loved by the Lord . "for having loved them he loved them till the end" John 13:1
Yet out of the 11 were there not Peter James and John who walked with much closer than them all? and saw and heard things the others did not?
Did not the Lord take all 11 into the garden? Yet did eh not also take the three a little further? to share more intimately his grief and prayer ?
At the table when Jesus said one of you will betray me . They ALL said "Is it I" For they were not so sure or certain it was not them. Only One was able to ask and asked "Who is it Lord?" He knew it was not him.
It was he who was leaning on the Lords chest . and the scriptures say "whom the Lord loved" Did he not love them all? Yes . Yet this one knew it better or more so and was the closest one to the lord out of them all .
It is written(?) "the Lord is no respecter of persons" But it cannot be said that the thief who repented on the day he died will be as rewarded as say Paul who spent the rest of his life after conversion in the way he did .
True the thief was saved and received the promise . But did no work of God save one . In his words and rebuke of the other thief laid out the way of salvation for all . A great work in deed but still not as much as Paul and others who have dedicated their whole lives in the service of God.
in Christ
gerald
Thanks for the reply.
I think this is one of topics that am sitting on the fence* ...
Similar to another “controversial topic” of ECT and Annihilation : )
But I “seems” to see an “overkill” on one side of a topic:
- The ECT seems to “overkill” that if one believes in Annihilation : that it mean as etc….
- While the Anni seems to "overkill" that if one believes in ECT that will makes things as, etc….
In the same manner on this topic: seems Post Trib seems to “overkill” that if one believes in “Pre Trib”, it will reflect a... etc…
Although reading that there can be 2 Trib: seems there can be some difference in point of view… …although am personal opinion, yet to find a good reason to search/research….
*There are topics that am not a fence-sitter, though……
....... like: there is a good reason to sit on the fence on some topics : )
A man should be fully persuaded in his own mind of the truth .
I would simply say two things that overall "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth"
But specifically to the Christian that when the Spirit of truth shall come he will lead us into all truth"
and thus all scripture inspired by Him can be put in its proper order and context as it was and is in the mind of God that both honours what is in scripture and HIm who is the way the truth and the life .
in Christ
gerald
I might be open to the Pre-trib rapture idea if not for this:
- Pre-trib people teach that the saints are first taken away in a secret rapture followed by a great tribulation which ends at the visible, audible Second Coming of Jesus.
- 1 Thess. 4:16-18 teaches that at the visible, audible Second Coming of Jesus, the dead and living saints ASCEND in the rapture to meet the Lord in the clouds as He DESCENDS from the heaven to them SIMULTANEOUSLY (which demands that the tribulation has already occurred at this point).
The rapture is the Lord coming FOR His Bride. The visible and manifested coming when every eye shall see him is when eh comes WITH His bride .
The dead and living saints that is predominantly the dead gentile martyrs of the great tribulation and the living Jewish remnant who will "see Him whom they have pierced "
I see no point in the Lord meeting the saints in the air if he is coming to the earth "in like manner as you see Him go"
When His feet will touch the mount of Olives .
Though you might argue that the Lord knows His business . It doe snot satisfactoraly explain why we should meet Him in the air when he is coming to the earth!
But consider this :
When Lucifer rebelled in heaven he was cast down and was under the Lord s feet. Where was he cast down to? The earth and his power is now "in the air"
When the Lord comes to the air .he is cast down to the earth and his wrath is now manifest for he knows his days are numbered .
When the Lord comes to the earth he is cast down again and put into the pit "for a season " and he is again under the lords feet.
What is the primary motive for the lords return?
"I will come again.... that where I am ye may be also "
That's the rapture of the bride for the "MARRIAGE"
When he comes WITH His bride it will be to judge the earth in righteousness and rule the earth "with a rod of iron " WITH His saints .
It is not the rapture that is the important thing nor indeed the antichrist or the great tribulation .
But is the Bride getting herself ready!?Or is she ready.
To be BORNagain is the foundation of it . It is not the end of it .
To be BORNagain qualifies you to "run the race" it does not win you the prize.
in Christ
gerald
So, you believe that when Paul says the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous, where Jesus and the saints meet each other in the air, he actually means that the Rapture takes place secretly many years prior to the cacophonous, climactic Second Coming of Jesus?
I do not believe in a pre/post tribulation rapture. I believe in the one true God who created the heavens and the earth and he is in complete control. Not my will but thine be done. If he wants to take me pre/mid/post that's all up to him and his greater glory.
You said........"The rapture is the Lord coming FOR His Bride."
I agree because that is according to the Bible.
You said........"The visible and manifested coming when every eye shall see him is when eh comes WITH His bride .
Agreed as well and those two events are separated by 7 years which is Jacobs Trouble or the Tribulation Period.
You said..........."I see no point in the Lord meeting the saints in the air if he is coming to the earth "in like manner as you see Him go"
When His feet will touch the mount of Olives .
Though you might argue that the Lord knows His business.
I agree that the Lord know His business.
You said......."What is the primary motive for the lords return?
I Agree hat He will be fulfilling His promisee in John 14:6. May I also remind you that He is coming again To Judge Everyone in the World, Living and Dead. Also to To Bring New Heavens and New Earth.
Then you said........"It is not the rapture that is the important thing nor indeed the antichrist or the great tribulation ".
That I must disagree with. The Rapture is the next thing on God's Play Book and if anyone is not born again and miss it, they will never be saved after the Rapture IF they have heard and rejected the gospel today.
Yes, way too much LOL. The only thing I found myself in agreement with that guy was what he said at 00:11:30 about 2 Thess. 2:1-3 not lining up with the Pre-trib idea. I would have like to have told him that neither does 1 Thess 4:16-18. Can you believe they want $35.00 for that book set what with the economy being in the toilet and everything? LOL
Not so. You have confused the Bible's explanation.
1. Pre-tribers do not teach this. They believe what is explained in the Scriptures.
2. The dead in Christ rise 1st and then WE who are alive are raised to meet the Lord in the Air. "END"
3. Then after that event there will be 7 years of Tribulation which the world has never seen.
Throughout Scripture, the tribulation is referred to by other names such as the Day of the Lord in
Isaiah 2:12; 13:6-9;
Joel 1:15; 2:1-31; 3:14;
1 Thessalonians 5:2;
trouble or tribulation in Deuteronomy 4:30;
Zephaniah 1:1;
the great tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the seven-year period in Matthew 24:21;
time or day of trouble in Daniel 12:1; Zephaniah 1:15;
time of Jacob's trouble in Jeremiah 30:7.
Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the seven-year tribulation period: .......
“He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes desolation” in Matthew 24:15 and is called “the beast” in Revelation 13.
He will be the anti-Christ and he will come to power AFTER the Rapture and be in charge for 7 years!!
So:
- the Lord descending with a shout
- with the voice of the archangel
- with the trumpet of God
- the dead in Christ rising and ascending to Him in the air
- the living saints ascending to Him in the air
Brother, for ages people have referred to this as "the loudest verse in the Bible" which shall shake the entire earth at the Second Coming of Jesus, and yet you deny that this is talking about the Second Coming?
The pattern of Paul:
1 Thess 4:16-18"Lord descends/Dead and Living Saints rise to Him"
2 Thess 2:1-3 "Lord comes/saints are gathered together with Him"
BTW, did you know that Paul says in 2 Thess 2 that "the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him" cannot take place until AFTER the Antichrist rises?
I'm beginning to question Isaiah 35:8, my dear brother!
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Im saying that that one verse thought it might appear all to be of one event . Does not resolve a lot of other verses that say otherwise even as ther eis one verse that says "the church which is His bride" does not resolve a lot of other verses that shows that there is the general body and there is the bride .
I would also suggest that even as the Jews then as now take all the scriptures pertaining to the messiah and compress them into one coming.
So now the church is doing the same as to the second coming and taking all the scriptures and compressing them into one event .
Im saying that the 'rapture' is not secret as it is plainly taught. But that too some it will come when they are unprepared for it .
One reason being that they have believed it will come AFTER the manifesttion of the antichrist and the great tribulation.
Im saying that others though BORNagain are not wise and have not seen to it that their vessels are full of oil.
Im saying that ven as the first Adam had a bride .So too the last .
and even as the first Bride was taken form the midst of his body .
So too the last Adam will have a bride taken form the midst of His.
Im saying that even as Abraham sent his servant to seek a bride for the Son of promise .Not into the world and among the heathen. But form among his bretheren .
Im saying that Moses was already MARRIED when he returned the second time to the children of Isreal .
Im saying or rather the scriptures say it that Joseph was already married to a gentile bride when he revealed himself to his bretheren.
The scriptures speak of 12 tribes of Israel . 11 of which had an inheritance . But one tribe " had no inheritance for God was their inheritance"
The scriptures speak of 12 disciples . But out of those 11 there was three Peter James and John who saw and heard things the others did not .
Im saying that the scriptures teach that the Bride is taken out form among the church in general. and that the Lord will come FOR His Bride .
and they will go to the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven.
that the bride whos vessels are full of oil speaks of the Holy Spirit and when she is gone . Then the restraining of the Holy Spirit of the antichrist will be gone and he will then have 'liberty' and be given his rope to hang himself .and to all
Then why did he tell his disciples to make sure they were ready?
For most of my 62 years, I did not see a pretrib rapture. I had a dream when I was 16-17 and I saw the tribulation and I was afraid/terrified. It has always haunted me. I also thought it was dangerous for christians to hold tight to such a rapture because if none happened - it would cause many to question their faith. And I still think it will be a dangerous time. Then I began to see in scripture - scripture upon scripture - that under the many layers that the beginning (Genesis) reflects the end (Revelation). When I ceased trying to explain those chapters as allegory/parallel but took them literally they were extremely clear and becoming clearer. The rapture does not happen that we might avoid tribulation - it happens for several integral reasons but mostly it is that those who have grace - Christ's righteousness have to be removed so that they can acclimate to all of the truth and be rid of whatever foolishness they have picked up but also so Satan can act. Satan knows scripture better than any other entity - but it is coded and he is blind. Already - in this world - evil is plotting to explain why believers have disappeared. Shows like the Leftovers and Resurrection and the alien greys have taken us. Israel will be the only protected species - the only elect. As in the beginning - so in the end. And they will come to know Christ as their messiah. For all their collective wrong, they kept God's Word (1st 5 books) and love the same God as we do. He will show them mercy. Even now, it is miraculous that 1000's are killed outside and inside Israel toll is under 100. Those that represent Christ have to be removed so end events can finally come about. Even Satan is not blind to the rapture.
Most people are unaware that the pre-trib "rapture" theory is the marketing vehicle for the false doctrine of dispensationalism. The word "rapture" is not found in the Bible. And saying that it is, only serves to fuel that false doctrine.
If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.
The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.
When a person imprisoned in the Rapture Cult hears someone does not believe in the ”rapture,” what he (or she) thinks he hears is someone saying they don’t believe the Lord is coming back at all. The fact is, Cultspeak is a verifiable phenomenon, in that all cult systems have misappropriated religious terminology for their own advantage.
Again, it’s about the assumption factor. It is the assumption of the existence of the so-called “rapture” that is part of the problem. Indeed, if someone says they believe in the “post-tribulation rapture,” they are still putting forth the existence of the “rapture,” in that they are characterizing the legitimacy of the term, even in a post-trib context. Conversely, if you say you believe in the second coming, you are saying essentially the same thing -- but you are saying it in a fashion that does not tend to validate the existence of the fraudulent concept itself.
This point merits repetition as it’s crucial. If you set out to study the “rapture” in the Scriptures (or even in an interaction with another believer), you have already forfeited a completely accurate result, for you’ve projected the existence of something that does not exist, and then sought to study it. In fact, for many years, I’ve strongly encouraged believers to study the resurrection of the believer, as it is a concept that is categorically enunciated in Scripture; and when a student of Scripture fully understands the resurrection, they will have learned there is no way for the “rapture” doctrine to be valid.
If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.
The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.
When a person imprisoned in the Rapture Cult hears someone does not believe in the ”rapture,” what he (or she) thinks he hears is someone saying they don’t believe the Lord is coming back at all. The fact is, Cultspeak is a verifiable phenomenon, in that all cult systems have misappropriated religious terminology for their own advantage.
Again, it’s about the assumption factor. It is the assumption of the existence of the so-called “rapture” that is part of the problem. Indeed, if someone says they believe in the “post-tribulation rapture,” they are still putting forth the existence of the “rapture,” in that they are characterizing the legitimacy of the term, even in a post-trib context. Conversely, if you say you believe in the second coming, you are saying essentially the same thing -- but you are saying it in a fashion that does not tend to validate the existence of the fraudulent concept itself.
This point merits repetition as it’s crucial. If you set out to study the “rapture” in the Scriptures (or even in an interaction with another believer), you have already forfeited a completely accurate result, for you’ve projected the existence of something that does not exist, and then sought to study it. In fact, for many years, I’ve strongly encouraged believers to study the resurrection of the believer, as it is a concept that is categorically enunciated in Scripture; and when a student of Scripture fully understands the resurrection, they will have learned there is no way for the “rapture” doctrine to be valid.
Because they didn't know when he was coming back. That's the point I was trying to make, people think they know and obviously some don't because all sides can't be right. The important part is too focus on him and be ready, not argue about when.
GBzone's statement above exemplifies the frustration and confusion inherent with the heresy that is “rapture theory.” This is why it is imperative that we compare scripture with scripture -- avoiding all unscriptural terms e. g. "rapture."
I-d-e-n-t-i-t-y.
Due to the religious conditioning which has come to dominate most of the denominations and Christian fellowships over the last century, most believers see themselves as members of the so-called “church,” as opposed to the unique title Paul used to describe the saved in the following passage:
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision [being an Israelite] availeth anything, nor uncircumcision [being a Gentile], but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16).
To phrase this in the simplest language possible, the Apostle Paul is saying being Jewish is worth nothing, and being Gentile is worth nothing, because whatever you were before, in Christ you are now “a new creature,” and this new body of believers is called “the Israel of God.”
To put it bluntly, the Christians are the only saved Israel seen in the New Testament.
The transition concludes when Christ-rejecting physical Israel, joins with the Christ-rejecting physical Gentiles, to attack the single Spiritual entity that was born again as Spiritual Israel.
“But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren. And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them they were ware of it, and fled….” (Acts 14:2, 5, 6).
The reconfiguration of Israel was complete, for what could be called Spiritual Israel, or Born Again Israel, comprised of former Jews and former Gentiles, was being attacked by physical Jews and physical Gentiles, who had joined together to oppose the Gospel.
At this point, it’s useful to remember that the New Testament cogently tells us that there is no difference between physical Jews or physical Gentiles in Christ:
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (II Corinthians 5:17).
This means that if any man is not in Christ, he is what he was – an unsaved Jew or an unsaved Gentile. We note that the two components of Anti-Israel, comprised of Christ-rejecting Jews and unregenerate Gentiles, form one body – those who are not saved. On the opposite side of the spectrum, we see the two components of “the Israel of God,” comprised of former Jews and former Gentiles who now form “a new creature” -- those who are saved.
Because most Christians have been taught they have become members of the so-called “church” (a word that simply means an assembly), the Roman Catholic concept of the “church” replacing Israel came about. The Rapture Cult, realizing the Old Testament promises to Israel must be fulfilled in Israel, then came up with the idea of rotating salvation (the “church” is saved, gets raptured, and then Israel gets redeemed), but both systems are fatally flawed.
No matter how you slice it, the only saved entity in Scripture is Israel, and the Apostle Paul clearly articulated the body of Christian believers is one body, comprised of former Jews and former Gentiles, who have been born again as a new creation – The Israel Of God.
Continuing, the $64,000 question that we must correctly answer is, “What is my identity in Christ?”
Based on the prophetic texts found in Obadiah, the LORD reproaches the identity seen in the Old Testament as Edom. This is the mysterious name which stands in the way of those who were escaping the wrath of God, by moving through the "crossway" – and it was the wicked Spiritual entity identified as Edom, which sought to stop those seeking salvation at Calvary:
"Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape…" (Obadiah 1:14).
Edom is a physical identity under the Old Covenant, and a Spiritual identity under the New Covenant.
Unfortunately, vast numbers of believers have been taught the "other Gospel" of the end times – a system that reverses the true identities found in Bible prophecy -- to the detriment of the millions who have fallen under the strong delusion. At this late date in the prophetic calendar, it is tragic that so many Christians are experiencing a prophetic reiteration of the prophecy directed to the Judaeans by the Apostle Paul, in which he also anticipated the state of the believers in Christ at the end of the age:
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge… my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, because thou hast rejected knowledge" (Romans 10:2, Hosea 4:6).
Obviously, both verses cited above turn on the issue of identity – i.e. just who is in view that is to be turned away, because they have rejected knowledge. It is self evident that both verses are addressed to "Israel," yet it is inconsistent to apply the appellation of "my people" to physical Israelites under the New Covenant.
Few stop to realize that very same prophet Hosea, who hosted the LORD's Spiritual rejection of "his people" because they rejected his knowledge, also said that God would draw to himself those who were not his people:
"…and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people: and they shall say, Thou art my God" (Hosea 2:23).
Since Hosea is an Old Testament era prophet, and the LORD said through him that he would call those who were "not my people," it is exceedingly clear the "not my people" could not have been referencing the physical children of Israel. In fact, the Apostle Paul, back in the New Testament, quotes this very verse as he tells the Roman Christians that they have now become God's people:
"Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles…As he saith also in [H]osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved" (Romans 9:25).
Most believers fail to see the Spiritual depth of terms such as "my people," or even the "chosen," or the "elect" of God; and this is largely because of a wholesale orientation to one primary, albeit false, worldview. But what if that view is indeed in error, and vast numbers of seemingly devout believers have inadvertently embraced the "other Jesus?" (Galatians 1:8)
For example, to the disciples, Jesus very unambiguously stated that they were now the chosen people:
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you" (John 15:16).
Even the Apostle Peter, clearly writing to the Christians, confirms that we are the "chosen" people:
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people…" (1 Peter 2:9).
The Apostle Paul, in writing to the Romans, clearly distinguishes between the physical Jews, and the believers in Christ, whom he refers to as the "elect" of God:
"Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it…." (Romans 11:7).
This is only the tip of the textual iceberg, in that there are dozens of verses, plainly applied to the Christians, in which the LORD refers to us as "my people" – and yet whenever we see such a phrase, we irrationally assign that sacred role to the physical family of Jacob.
Even worse, when God says he will call his people out of a group who were previously known as not my people, he also prophetically addresses those who were his people, but are now no more his people:
"I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel: but I will utterly take them away….for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God" (Hosea 1:6, 10).
In spite of starkly unpleasant statements like the above, we've all been taught to cite verses supporting the supposed inability of God to change course concerning Israel, even as we routinely ignore verses which speak of such things. For instance, at the provocation in the wilderness, God says that Israel will know his breach of covenant:
"After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise" (Numbers 14:34).
God clearly tells us the covenant with the family of Israel was not broken by him, for they are the ones who broke the covenant:
"…I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:32).
Through the prophets Ezekiel and Amos, God even says there is an end to his patience with Israel's backsliding; but he will give them one final opportunity to be redeemed:
"Alas, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel: An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. An end is come, the end is come…." (Ezekiel 7:2, 6).
"The end is come upon my people of Israel: I will not again pass by them any more" (Amos 8:2).
Ultimately, JESUS CHRIST himself pointedly tells the Jews their standing has been revoked, as God has determined to call those who were not his people, into the ranks of the chosen:
"Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).
The truth is a hard saying, but it is still the truth. When God promised to "remember" Israel, thus fulfilling his promise that Israel's "seed" would be multiplied "as the stars of heaven" (Genesis 26:4), through those same prophets he said he would accomplish this by transforming Israel into a spiritual house:
"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel…I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33).
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (I Peter 2:5).
The truth is staring us right in the face, but most cannot see it, because blindness has happened to the last generation of Spiritual Israelites:
"…blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in…This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart" (Romans 11:25, Ephesians 4:17, 18).
This Spiritual blindness affects both Gentiles and Jews, who are not in Christ; but the Gentiles and the Jews who have joined into one Spiritual body in Christ, are the true Remnant of Israel, and they are that which the Apostle Paul calls the Israel of God:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).
Thus, the Christians are the Spiritual Jews, which relegates the physical Jews to the role of Spiritual Gentiles – who are identified in Obadiah as associated with the identity therein labeled as Edom:
"Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape…" (Obadiah 1:14).
I-d-e-n-t-i-t-y.
I realized the common denominator in every one of the rapidly expanding tiers of Post-Tribulationism (e. g. pre-wrath), is the fundamental error that they still see Israel as the chosen people based on flesh and blood:
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (I Corinthians 15:5).
This means that there is another entire strata of deception positioned within the ranks of those who are willing to break with the false tradition of Pre-Trib. In essence, most of the Post-Tribulationists have simply pushed their “Rapture” of the “Church” deeper and deeper into the tribulation – not realizing the primary error of the Rapture Cult actually has very little to do with timing – and everything to do with the believer’s true identity.
An enormous problem is a rudimentary misunderstanding of the Gospel itself. Jesus Christ repeatedly stated he came to save Israel – even as other verses state God loved the entire world enough to send his Son to redeem all who will respond to his call:
“I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel…the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world” (John 4:14).
When we say that “Israel” rejected Christ, but those who did respond became members of the so called “Church” (a word associated with a generic group of people), we make Christ’s efforts to save Israel either a failure, or at the very least, an unfulfilled promise. The truth is, as Zecharias the father of John the Baptist proclaimed, Christ redeemed Israel in every way he promised:
“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people” (Luke 1:68).
As Jesus prayed the Father, looking throughout eternity, he flatly stated he had completed the work he was given, and had lost none of those the Father gave him:
“That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none” (John 18:9).
There is no “Church” apart from Israel, and there never was. There is no “Israel” apart from Christ, and there never was.
After the cross, there is no physical Jew, and there is no physical Gentile – as EVERYTHING is delineated on a Spiritual plane. There are now Spiritual Jews (the same thing as a Spiritual Israelite), and there are Spiritual Gentiles – thus, all who are truly in Christ, who stand completely in him, with no reliance upon relationships based on flesh and blood, are the “All Israel” which is saved (Romans 11:26).
Those who claim the Jews are chosen in their flesh (whether they see themselves as members of the “Church,” or whether they profess themselves to be “Jews”) manifest the Spirit of Antichrist, for the Scriptures repeatedly show that God prophesied He was going to translate Israel into a Spiritual house (I Peter 2:5).
So called “Hebrew Roots” believers universally claim the Jews are chosen regardless of their belief (or lack thereof) in Christ – an abomination of the first magnitude. Every Rapturist (regardless of Pre-Trib or Post-Trib orientation) separates Israel from the fictional “Church” – so they are all preaching another Gospel.
When Jesus told the Disciples” I have chosen you” (John 15:19), he defined being “chosen” as one who is Spiritually regenerated in him – regardless of their physical lineage. Thus, the Post-Tribulationists are teaching the same apostasy as the Pre-Tribulationists when they profess Israel is still chosen on a physical basis – but God is not mocked, for he has revealed the truth to those he has chosen:
“But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the LORD, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (II Thessalonians 2:3).
Ironically, the same Spiritural Stronghold which has been repeatedly detected in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Cult also exists in the Post-Tribulationists who fail to hear the voice of the LORD in this matter – and it is directly related to the Strong Delusion which everyone has heard so much about.
“But ye brethren are not in darkness…Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness…For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God” (I Thessalonians 5:4, 5; Galatians 6:16).
I-d-e-n-t-i-t-y.
Due to the religious conditioning which has come to dominate most of the denominations and Christian fellowships over the last century, most believers see themselves as members of the so-called “church,” as opposed to the unique title Paul used to describe the saved in the following passage:
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision [being an Israelite] availeth anything, nor uncircumcision [being a Gentile], but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16).
To phrase this in the simplest language possible, the Apostle Paul is saying being Jewish is worth nothing, and being Gentile is worth nothing, because whatever you were before, in Christ you are now “a new creature,” and this new body of believers is called “the Israel of God.”
To put it bluntly, the Christians are the only saved Israel seen in the New Testament.
The transition concludes when Christ-rejecting physical Israel, joins with the Christ-rejecting physical Gentiles, to attack the single Spiritual entity that was born again as Spiritual Israel.
“But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren. And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them they were ware of it, and fled….” (Acts 14:2, 5, 6).
The reconfiguration of Israel was complete, for what could be called Spiritual Israel, or Born Again Israel, comprised of former Jews and former Gentiles, was being attacked by physical Jews and physical Gentiles, who had joined together to oppose the Gospel.
At this point, it’s useful to remember that the New Testament cogently tells us that there is no difference between physical Jews or physical Gentiles in Christ:
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (II Corinthians 5:17).
This means that if any man is not in Christ, he is what he was – an unsaved Jew or an unsaved Gentile. We note that the two components of Anti-Israel, comprised of Christ-rejecting Jews and unregenerate Gentiles, form one body – those who are not saved. On the opposite side of the spectrum, we see the two components of “the Israel of God,” comprised of former Jews and former Gentiles who now form “a new creature” -- those who are saved.
Because most Christians have been taught they have become members of the so-called “church” (a word that simply means an assembly), the Roman Catholic concept of the “church” replacing Israel came about. The Rapture Cult, realizing the Old Testament promises to Israel must be fulfilled in Israel, then came up with the idea of rotating salvation (the “church” is saved, gets raptured, and then Israel gets redeemed), but both systems are fatally flawed.
No matter how you slice it, the only saved entity in Scripture is Israel, and the Apostle Paul clearly articulated the body of Christian believers is one body, comprised of former Jews and former Gentiles, who have been born again as a new creation – The Israel Of God.
Continuing, the $64,000 question that we must correctly answer is, “What is my identity in Christ?”
Based on the prophetic texts found in Obadiah, the LORD reproaches the identity seen in the Old Testament as Edom. This is the mysterious name which stands in the way of those who were escaping the wrath of God, by moving through the "crossway" – and it was the wicked Spiritual entity identified as Edom, which sought to stop those seeking salvation at Calvary:
"Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape…" (Obadiah 1:14).
Edom is a physical identity under the Old Covenant, and a Spiritual identity under the New Covenant.
Unfortunately, vast numbers of believers have been taught the "other Gospel" of the end times – a system that reverses the true identities found in Bible prophecy -- to the detriment of the millions who have fallen under the strong delusion. At this late date in the prophetic calendar, it is tragic that so many Christians are experiencing a prophetic reiteration of the prophecy directed to the Judaeans by the Apostle Paul, in which he also anticipated the state of the believers in Christ at the end of the age:
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge… my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, because thou hast rejected knowledge" (Romans 10:2, Hosea 4:6).
Obviously, both verses cited above turn on the issue of identity – i.e. just who is in view that is to be turned away, because they have rejected knowledge. It is self evident that both verses are addressed to "Israel," yet it is inconsistent to apply the appellation of "my people" to physical Israelites under the New Covenant.
Few stop to realize that very same prophet Hosea, who hosted the LORD's Spiritual rejection of "his people" because they rejected his knowledge, also said that God would draw to himself those who were not his people:
"…and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people: and they shall say, Thou art my God" (Hosea 2:23).
Since Hosea is an Old Testament era prophet, and the LORD said through him that he would call those who were "not my people," it is exceedingly clear the "not my people" could not have been referencing the physical children of Israel. In fact, the Apostle Paul, back in the New Testament, quotes this very verse as he tells the Roman Christians that they have now become God's people:
"Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles…As he saith also in [H]osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved" (Romans 9:25).
Most believers fail to see the Spiritual depth of terms such as "my people," or even the "chosen," or the "elect" of God; and this is largely because of a wholesale orientation to one primary, albeit false, worldview. But what if that view is indeed in error, and vast numbers of seemingly devout believers have inadvertently embraced the "other Jesus?" (Galatians 1:8)
For example, to the disciples, Jesus very unambiguously stated that they were now the chosen people:
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you" (John 15:16).
Even the Apostle Peter, clearly writing to the Christians, confirms that we are the "chosen" people:
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people…" (1 Peter 2:9).
The Apostle Paul, in writing to the Romans, clearly distinguishes between the physical Jews, and the believers in Christ, whom he refers to as the "elect" of God:
"Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it…." (Romans 11:7).
This is only the tip of the textual iceberg, in that there are dozens of verses, plainly applied to the Christians, in which the LORD refers to us as "my people" – and yet whenever we see such a phrase, we irrationally assign that sacred role to the physical family of Jacob.
Even worse, when God says he will call his people out of a group who were previously known as not my people, he also prophetically addresses those who were his people, but are now no more his people:
"I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel: but I will utterly take them away….for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God" (Hosea 1:6, 10).
In spite of starkly unpleasant statements like the above, we've all been taught to cite verses supporting the supposed inability of God to change course concerning Israel, even as we routinely ignore verses which speak of such things. For instance, at the provocation in the wilderness, God says that Israel will know his breach of covenant:
"After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise" (Numbers 14:34).
God clearly tells us the covenant with the family of Israel was not broken by him, for they are the ones who broke the covenant:
"…I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:32).
Through the prophets Ezekiel and Amos, God even says there is an end to his patience with Israel's backsliding; but he will give them one final opportunity to be redeemed:
"Alas, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel: An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. An end is come, the end is come…." (Ezekiel 7:2, 6).
"The end is come upon my people of Israel: I will not again pass by them any more" (Amos 8:2).
Ultimately, JESUS CHRIST himself pointedly tells the Jews their standing has been revoked, as God has determined to call those who were not his people, into the ranks of the chosen:
"Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).
The truth is a hard saying, but it is still the truth. When God promised to "remember" Israel, thus fulfilling his promise that Israel's "seed" would be multiplied "as the stars of heaven" (Genesis 26:4), through those same prophets he said he would accomplish this by transforming Israel into a spiritual house:
"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel…I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33).
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (I Peter 2:5).
The truth is staring us right in the face, but most cannot see it, because blindness has happened to the last generation of Spiritual Israelites:
"…blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in…This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart" (Romans 11:25, Ephesians 4:17, 18).
This Spiritual blindness affects both Gentiles and Jews, who are not in Christ; but the Gentiles and the Jews who have joined into one Spiritual body in Christ, are the true Remnant of Israel, and they are that which the Apostle Paul calls the Israel of God:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).
Thus, the Christians are the Spiritual Jews, which relegates the physical Jews to the role of Spiritual Gentiles – who are identified in Obadiah as associated with the identity therein labeled as Edom:
"Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape…" (Obadiah 1:14).
I-d-e-n-t-i-t-y.
I realized the common denominator in every one of the rapidly expanding tiers of Post-Tribulationism (e. g. pre-wrath), is the fundamental error that they still see Israel as the chosen people based on flesh and blood:
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (I Corinthians 15:5).
This means that there is another entire strata of deception positioned within the ranks of those who are willing to break with the false tradition of Pre-Trib. In essence, most of the Post-Tribulationists have simply pushed their “Rapture” of the “Church” deeper and deeper into the tribulation – not realizing the primary error of the Rapture Cult actually has very little to do with timing – and everything to do with the believer’s true identity.
An enormous problem is a rudimentary misunderstanding of the Gospel itself. Jesus Christ repeatedly stated he came to save Israel – even as other verses state God loved the entire world enough to send his Son to redeem all who will respond to his call:
“I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel…the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world” (John 4:14).
When we say that “Israel” rejected Christ, but those who did respond became members of the so called “Church” (a word associated with a generic group of people), we make Christ’s efforts to save Israel either a failure, or at the very least, an unfulfilled promise. The truth is, as Zecharias the father of John the Baptist proclaimed, Christ redeemed Israel in every way he promised:
“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people” (Luke 1:68).
As Jesus prayed the Father, looking throughout eternity, he flatly stated he had completed the work he was given, and had lost none of those the Father gave him:
“That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none” (John 18:9).
There is no “Church” apart from Israel, and there never was. There is no “Israel” apart from Christ, and there never was.
After the cross, there is no physical Jew, and there is no physical Gentile – as EVERYTHING is delineated on a Spiritual plane. There are now Spiritual Jews (the same thing as a Spiritual Israelite), and there are Spiritual Gentiles – thus, all who are truly in Christ, who stand completely in him, with no reliance upon relationships based on flesh and blood, are the “All Israel” which is saved (Romans 11:26).
Those who claim the Jews are chosen in their flesh (whether they see themselves as members of the “Church,” or whether they profess themselves to be “Jews”) manifest the Spirit of Antichrist, for the Scriptures repeatedly show that God prophesied He was going to translate Israel into a Spiritual house (I Peter 2:5).
So called “Hebrew Roots” believers universally claim the Jews are chosen regardless of their belief (or lack thereof) in Christ – an abomination of the first magnitude. Every Rapturist (regardless of Pre-Trib or Post-Trib orientation) separates Israel from the fictional “Church” – so they are all preaching another Gospel.
When Jesus told the Disciples” I have chosen you” (John 15:19), he defined being “chosen” as one who is Spiritually regenerated in him – regardless of their physical lineage. Thus, the Post-Tribulationists are teaching the same apostasy as the Pre-Tribulationists when they profess Israel is still chosen on a physical basis – but God is not mocked, for he has revealed the truth to those he has chosen:
“But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the LORD, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (II Thessalonians 2:3).
Ironically, the same Spiritural Stronghold which has been repeatedly detected in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Cult also exists in the Post-Tribulationists who fail to hear the voice of the LORD in this matter – and it is directly related to the Strong Delusion which everyone has heard so much about.
“But ye brethren are not in darkness…Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness…For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God” (I Thessalonians 5:4, 5; Galatians 6:16).
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