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Deliverance From or Through The Tribulation?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Phoneman777, Nov 2, 2014.

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  1. #1 Phoneman777, Nov 2, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
    Christians are often heard using as evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture the notion that the Church must be raptured prior to it in order to be preserved from it. It is as if they have completely discounted the limitless sovereign power of the Most High Creator of the Universe. Over and over, the Bible recounts the times when God delivered His people through impossible circumstances which repeatedly echo the resounding answer to the question, "Is anything to hard for the Lord?"
    • Noah and his family were delivered through the midst of the Deluge, not from it.
    • Abraham was delivered through the midst of his trial on Mount Moriah, not from it.
    • Moses was delivered through the midst of the trial of a people that repeatedly wanted to stone him and return to Egypt, not from it.
    • Jacob was delivered through the midst of his Time of Trouble, not from it.
    • Joseph was delivered through the midst of his trials at home and in Egypt, not from them.
    • Daniel was delivered through the midst of the Lion's Den, not from it.
    • The Three Hebrew Worthies were delivered through the midst of the Fiery Furnace, not from it.
    • Esther and the Israelites were delivered through the midst of the death decree trial, not from it.
    • The disciples were delivered through the midst of the stormy sea by Jesus' words, not from it.
    • The Israelites were delivered through the midst of the 7 Last Plagues, not from them.
    Jesus prayed that God would not "take them out of the world, but that Thou wouldest keep them from the evil'. Psalms 91 declares that the church shall watch in the midst of it the fall of the wicked on all sides but that it will not come nigh them. Job prayed that God would hide him in the grave "until Thy wrath be past" after which he expected to be called forth from it by Him in the resurrection.

    Paul declares that the rapture of the church takes place at the deafeningly thunderous, blindingly brilliant Second Coming, when "the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, voice, and trumpet of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we..shall be caught up", which time can only be after the tribulation of the 7 Last Plagues, which through the midst God will deliver us, just as sure as He delivered the Israelites of old.
  2. Enoch was delivered FROM Noah's flood...
    Elijah was delivered FROM the destruction of the Northern Kingdom...
    Daniel was delivered FROM the firey furnace episode
    KingJ likes this.
  3. #3 Phoneman777, Nov 2, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
    Brother, Enoch was no where around when the Deluge took place. Daniel was delivered through the midst of the lion's den, not from it. It was the Three Hebrews who were delivered through the Fiery Furnace, not from it. Elijah was delivered through the terrible drought by God's power, not from it. Through it, not from it. They were all delivered through their trial, not from their trials.
  4. Yes... Because he was taken up into heaven... Look at the lifetimes of people before the flood... He would have gone through it - doesn't matter that he was taken about 200 years beforehand.

    So where was Daniel when the Firey Furnace episode happened? Are you suggesting that he bowed down to the idol? In my opinion, that seems a bit out of character for Daniel....

    Notice that Daniel was conspicuously ABSENT.... Thus - he was delivered FROM the firey furnace episode...

    Did I say the drought? No, I did not say the drought... I specifically said the Captivity and destruction of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.... But if you look at all the blood and destruction that came upon the Northern Kingdom during Elisha's tenure as prophet (from the inside) - It's clear that God delivered Elijah OUT OF all of that trouble... Not Through it...

    Now.. Your point about Elijah and the drought... Read through it again...
    God prepared a place to HIDE Elijah while the drought was going on.... Elijah was carried out of Israel and could not be found - in fact, King Ahab went searching all over creation to find him - and even had his armies actively searching - and went to far as to have his allied Kings looking for Elijah as well.... All this was going on while Ahab and Jezebel were actively killing every prophet of YHWH they could find... This serves as a model for being taken out of the trouble... It's not as if Elijah was in Israel - openly preaching during the entire 3 1/2 year drought... He was gone.

    Your point would have been a good one for the 7,000 faithful that God declares that He preserved during Elijah's Mount Horeb adventure... They clearly were preserved THROUGH the purges....

    So.. To add one more...

    What about the baby Jesus - whom Joseph carried out of Israel - thus avoiding the purge of all babies 2 years old and younger per Herod the Great? He most certainly did not go THROUGH the persecution...

    But... If you don't like the idea of the rapture... Fine.

    Here's my thing....

    Given a say in the matter... I believe I would much rather be taken out before the great tribulation than have to live through it... but that's just me... If you would prefer to go through it yourself - then so be it.

    One thing that really worries me....

    There's this theme running through scripture....
    When the Lord calls - Present yourself before the Face of the Lord...
    Look at the book of Esther or the parable of the wedding supper....
    and what do you suppose happened to the Jews that refused to go with Moses on the Exodus from Egypt?

    When it's time to present ourselves - we will have a decision to make... It will be: Decide.. Present yourself before God or don't.... My fear is that most won't....

    And... What does the scripture say then....

    The door will be shut and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth....

    That's the side of it that we don't want to hear....
    LanceA, JG27_chili and Silk says Amen and like this.
  5. I think there is only one place where the word "tribulation" is used when it is speaking of the "great tribulation"
    In all other cases when the scriptures speak of "tribulation " it is in the use of "in this world you will have tribulation" the 'normal ' tribulations that very child of God who is living a Godly life will have to endure and suffer . "They who live Godly in Christ Jesus WILL suffer ........."tribulation or persecution.
    The "great tribulation however is of another order . Where if God had not shortened the days no one would or could be saved . This is the time of the reign of antichrist and the martyrdom of saints and the evangelism of the Jews . etc .

    But there is a great error in the church today and that is that as soon as you are BORNagain you are automatically in the Bride of Christ . On the foundation of but one verse of scripture that says "the Bride which is His church ."
    Every true BORN child of God is CALLED to that "high calling" It will depend greatly on their response to that sanctified life of service and suffering whether they will be counted among those who will make up the Bride .
    The matter then of what is called the 'rapture' (where does that word come form?)but more accurately would be the "translation" of the Bride is or can be understood in the light of the nature and the character and the disposition of the Bride .
    For two things stand out .
    That there are people who ARE saved during the great tribulation .Mostly Jews but also gentiles . and there is a 'rapture ' or translation.

    "As in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of man"
    But while Noah was saved THROUGH the great outpouring of Gods wrath and judgment on the world. There was in his days Enoch who was translated BEFORE that event .

    "As in the days of Lot so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of man"
    Lot WALKED by sight and not by faith . Though he was counted righteous ."For "his righteous soul was vexed ............."
    But in the days of Lot was Abraham . Who walked by faith and not by sight and was no where near Sodom.
    and while Lot was blind and ignorant of the hour in which he lived .The secret of the Lord was with Abraham .
    Is it not written that some "will suffer loss as through fire" saving but their own souls?
    Lot was saved THROUGH or out from Sodom but lost all but the salvation of his soul.
    Abraham lost nothing .

    Not the only indicators nor a comprehensive proof . But an indicator that there will be some who will be saved THROUGH the great tribulation while others will be 'saved' or translated before it and from it.

    The ones who will have to go through it were found not to be ready despite the warnings and were not recognisable as the Bride .

    in Christ
  6. Honestly, all of the things you have said are trials within the Earth's life. Meaning that the Noah's flood happened within the life of the earth not at the end. To me, He will just deliver us from the tribulation because it says in the Bible that He will take us to Heaven. All of the people that he delivered through weren't taken into Heaven, it just means that God was with them and guided them. But when the Tribulation begins, all Christians will be taken from the Earth and placed into Heaven. This doesn't seem to me that we will just be placed right back down on Earth because things will get worse. What would be the point in just taking us to Heaven for a "limited time offer" so to speak?
  7. Inference is a weak foundation upon which to establish one's position. My examples do not rely on inference, but on the plain testimony of Scripture and Geo-science.
    • Enoch was taken up b/c he walked so closely with God, and any claims of "divine safeguarding" can be based only on inference, not Scripture.
    • Of course Daniel wasn't there, else history would've recorded the "FOUR Hebrew worthies". Again, your claim that he was divinely safeguarded is pure inference.
    • I purposely said drought to remind you that Elijah was delivered THROUGH this trial, and not from it.
    • God prepares ways and methods to deliver ALL of us, including Elijah, through trials before we even enter into them. "Our Heavenly Father has 1,000 ways to provide for us, of which we know nothing." - The Ministry of Healing
    • Your claim that Elijah was taken up as a means of divine safeguarding is once again pure inference, not based on Scripture. What about the rest of Israel, including Elisha? Did they not all go THROUGH the trial of the captivity? Yes, I believe they did.
    • Jesus may have been delivered as a baby from the slaughter, but He faced the most difficult trial a man has ever endured - to the point that He sweat great drops of blood. He prayed three times to be delivered from it, (which is so desperately desired by the church with regard to the Great Tribulation) but was called to go THROUGH it, not around it.
    The rapture is a real event that will take place at the Second Coming of Jesus, and not a moment before hand:

    "For the Lord (JESUS) shall descend from heaven (Second Coming) with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we that are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
    Before Jesus comes, the Mark of the Beast, the Seal of God, the 7 Last Plagues - all these things will take place before the saints, both dead and living, are raptured and Job, Paul, Jesus, the Psalmists and other Bible writers declare thus.

  8. You are missing the fact that there is tribulation that" all who live Godly in Christ Jesus ........"will have to endure .
    and the "great tribulation" when the antichrist will be given his rope.
    The 'rapture is that of the Bride . To which all who are His are called to be in.
    But Paul warns the church not to be like those who were 'saved' out of Egypt but failed to enter into the promise through unbelief .
    Jesus spoke of 10 virgins 5 of which had foolish expectations that they were ready but did not have their vessles filled with oil and were barred from the "MARRIAGE " as they were unrecognisable as the Bride "I know ye not"
    Those judged on the day of judgement unto condemnation are barred from the KINGDOM "I never knew you"

    in Christ
  9. Hi, SBG, do you have a verse in mind that teaches the righteous will not be here for the tribulation?
  10. "In this world ye shall have tribulation but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world". Job went through it. Moses went through it, forty years an exile and when he delivered the Israelites from Egypt, he still went through it as they wanted to stone him. Jesus went through it, forty days in the desert, tempted by Satan. Noah went through it, lived a life of ridicule, until the rains came.
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  11. There is tribulation and there is the great tribulation .

    The flood was Gods judgement on the whole world . That is not what tribulations the people of God go through.
    But "as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be ......."
    In the days of Noah you had Enoch. He was translated BEFORE it occurred.
    It is clear by scripture that there will be people saved during the GREAT tribulation.
    Who will go through it .
    It is also clear there are others who will be saved FROM it .
    The L:eek:rds temptation is as all and the NORM.
    The Great tribulation is NOT normal for if God did nto shorten the days no one wold be saved at all
    It is the time of the antichrist and world religion and the mark of the beast etc .

    in Christ
    As In the days of Lot so shall it be......
    Lot "suffered loss as through fire" and was saved out of it .
    He suffered loss because though he was counted righteous he WALKED by sight .
    In the days of Lot there was Abraham who walked by faith and not by sight .
    he suffered no loss at all. and was no where near Sodom.

    Moses refused the pleasures of sin for ma season but rather chose to suffer with the children of Israel.
    That's the NORM of every child of God .
    What was not the norm was that he had to suffer without the camp even as the lord did and so will we or any who seek to be made conformable to Christ and be in " know the WORKS of God . But Moses knew his ways ."
  12. I’ve seen this thread from time to time… Pre Trib and Post Trib...

    I wonder: What's the important of knowing which?

    Seems to me: the “argument” basis is more on philosophy?
    • What is the pros and cons in Christian living as to Pre or Post?
    • What gives more glory to as a doctrine the Pre or Post?
  13. #14 Phoneman777, Nov 10, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
    Did you know that between the falling of the 6th plague and the 7th plague of Revelation 16, Jesus suddenly breaks His silence that commenced way back in chapter 3 and declares that He still has not yet come back to the Earth? Since the waiting saints can't go anywhere until He comes back, could it be that we'll be going through the plagues, just like Israel did?

    God's people are prophesied to be "delivered out of Jacob's trouble", and I'm sure that if we are to be delivered "out" of a thing, we must first have to have been placed "in" the thing.
  14. The great difference is that a post great tribulation is justification for a lukewarm church . Neither hot not cold and which has a name that it lives only.
    Even as 40 YEARS wandering in the wilderness is now justified as the norm for a Christian life .
    When it only took them 40 DAYS to arrive at the banks of the river Jordan.
    Even as the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the "great salvation of God" has been reduced to being but BORN again .Which is but the getting out of Egypt . For A peace sake .But not for the truths sake .

    A pre great tribulation rapture or translation is of a Bride that is wholly sanctified totally committed and zealous and on fire (literally) for the Lord . Awake to the hour and the great need both of the world and of the church .

    The children of Isreal who "failed to enter in because of unbelief" Hebrews 3 and others .
    But unbelief is not just NOT believing in God . It is also believing another message .
    If you believe in a post great tribulation rapture you will not be ready nor can be now ; for the one that is going to happen before those events.

    in Christ
    Phoneman777 likes this.
  15. Amen, brother! Is it a Second Coming or Second Chance? My Bible says, "Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your heart", and "Now is the acceptable time, today is the day to repent", and "I made haste, I delayed not to keep the commandments of God". Nothing in the Bible that says, "It's OK if you don't get right with God before Jesus comes, because you'll have a second chance to get it right during the tribulation."
  17. Jacobs trouble here is specifically speaking about the JEWS who will suffer under the hand of the Anti Christ much as they did under Hitler who had the same aim .

    Perhaps it would be profitable to do a search on "tribulation" and the "great tribulation" For clearly that is one of the things causing so much confusion and while in one place it speaks of tribulation when the scriptures are speaking about the great tribulation. That does not overrule the difference between them.

    in Christ
  18. Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego will agree with you. Hence its fine to believe either mid or pre. The problem I have is with post. As others have pointed out we always escape God's actual wrath. Matt 24:9 suggests an extreme 'pre' or a mid-trib rapture.
  19. IMHO, the Pros for living as a Post Trib Rapture guy-
    1. Proves one possesses plain ol' reading comprehension, let alone true Holy Spirit discernment. To interpret, "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout..voice...and trumpet...and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we that are alive and remain shall be caught up" as meaning anything other than what it plainly says - that only at Jesus' post-tribulation thunderous, cacophonous return will the saints rise to Him - is just unsound Biblical teaching.
    2. It demonstrates the urgency, immediacy, and steadfastness of the surrender that the Scriptures require of all men who would be saved.
    3. It demonstrates a "watch and be ready" attitude. One of the most deceptive "doctrines of devils" Satan could have ever devised for the destruction of billions is the idea that the Second Coming is really a "Second Chance in the tribulation", knowing full well our natural tendency to put off until tomorrow that which Jesus pleads for us to do "Today, if ye hear His voice, harden not your heart."
    4. I really can't see any down side for the Post trib rapture belief.
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