Definition of Grace

[Euphemia]

Hmm thanks big moose yes grace is favour.
I just have issue with 'unmerited' part of it.
When we humble ourselves, it is merited.
We need to be the ones that are humbled. Only we can do this. As said, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
God does not give grace to proud people, they do not deserve it! Only humble people deserve Gods grace. Otherwise...Pharisees would be having grace and we can see they wouldnt have a bar of it!
People who are proud of sin and dont even know they sinning...they cannot know Grace, cant even see it.
But people who have repented of their sin, yes they have grace! So they no longer want to sin! And if they do sin, they have an avocate in Jesus. They know they repent and can ask forgiveness. And grace is given so they have the power NOT to sin. Its a choice to accept this grace. Before they or we did nothing but sin and didnt even know it was wrong..after, we know and given grace...to correct our wrong. Not so we can continue in sin but so we can do right.

Amen?

Even born again people unknowingly sin, or sin rashly, and they are not deprived of God's great grace in their lives. Why? Because we cannot merit or EARN it. Grace is a free, unearned gift, lavishly poured out on imperfect people.

Grace is on offer in immeasurable supply.

 

[Lanolin]

Hmm. Well Im gonna say God thinks us worthy cos Jesus is worthy.

He sent his only begotten son to die for our sins because He LOVED us.
He did not think we were so undeserving and horrible after all. While we were yet sinners, he gave his very life. The son he loved most, dying for us. so he obviously thought we deserved saving.

Otherwise someone gonna have to rewrite John 3:16 to say God so hated the world that he sent his only begotten son so that we will get what we dont deserve. because he really thinks we should all perish after all. he was just doing us a favour with Jesus. If we dont take the bribe, we not going to heaven. cos God is stingy.

No. Thats just screwy.

 

[Euphemia]

Hmm. Well Im gonna say God thinks us worthy cos Jesus is worthy.

He sent his only begotten son to die for our sins because He LOVED us.
He did not think we were so undeserving and horrible after all. While we were yet sinners, he gave his very life. The son he loved most, dying for us. so he obviously thought we deserved saving.

Otherwise someone gonna have to rewrite John 3:16 to say God so hated the world that he sent his only begotten son so that we will get what we dont deserve. because he really thinks we should all perish after all. he was just doing us a favour with Jesus. If we dont take the bribe, we not going to heaven. cos God is stingy.

No. Thats just screwy.

God considers us worthy of saving, but we cannot earn it. Therefore, it is UNMERITED, freely given GRACE.

 

[Lanolin]

Thanks for all your replies.
Something to think about, even if we dont all agree.
Grace and Peace to you all!

 

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Indeed, we all have our own experiences with God. No one is right, no one is wrong unless it's manipulated.

 

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Even born again people unknowingly sin, or sin rashly, and they are not deprived of God's great grace in their lives. Why? Because we cannot merit or EARN it. Grace is a free, unearned gift, lavishly poured out on imperfect people.

Grace is on offer in immeasurable supply.

Amen; I agree.
Saved people still tumble every so often.

 

[Big Moose]

Hmm thanks big moose yes grace is favour.
I just have issue with 'unmerited' part of it.
When we humble ourselves, it is merited.
We need to be the ones that are humbled. Only we can do this. As said, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
God does not give grace to proud people, they do not deserve it! Only humble people deserve Gods grace. Otherwise...Pharisees would be having grace and we can see they wouldnt have a bar of it!
People who are proud of sin and dont even know they sinning...they cannot know Grace, cant even see it.
But people who have repented of their sin, yes they have grace! So they no longer want to sin! And if they do sin, they have an avocate in Jesus. They know they repent and can ask forgiveness. And grace is given so they have the power NOT to sin. Its a choice to accept this grace. Before they or we did nothing but sin and didnt even know it was wrong..after, we know and given grace...to correct our wrong. Not so we can continue in sin but so we can do right.

Amen?

Almost. God does resist the proud, their attitude is an abomination and He hates it. (Proverbs 6). And He does give grace to the humble. It is a gift.
When I give a gift, it isn't because they earned it or deserved it. It is because I love them and wanted to bring them joy. My kids don't deserve Christmas presents. I give them the presents because I love them. They already have too many toys.
So almost by definition, a gift is not merited.

 

[Lanolin]

But you still give because you are their Dad. If you werent their dad you might not give them any gifts. So they do deserve gifts!

Hmm well some children do not receive any gift on christmas day cos their own parents cannot afford. But they may have christian aunties and uncles who give and see they do deserve a gift. Why? Idk maybe they humbled themselves and simply asked.

I know when I was a child I would ask my parents or rather santa for a gift and in my childish mind he was like God, and he answered my request. But if I didnt ask, I didnt receive.

May do a bit more study on gifts in the Bible, to tie in with grace as a gift.

 

[Lanolin]

I am not saying you spoil your children...but if they already have toys..do they still ask for more? Or you just give cos you know they need toys?

Idk not a parent so dont feel obligated to give but I DO give christmas presents to children who arent mine cos they either asked, or knew they desired a gift, or I knew what they liked or saw that they needed love. I help out with operation christmas child for the reason that I love to give and think Gods children deserve a gift!! I'm a cheerful giver. I think God is too. It is the joy on their faces when they receive.

 

[Lanolin]

I think a gift is something you couldn't really give yourself.
Like that's why we give gifts to children cos they can't afford it themselves.
They have no money to buy it or the resources.

I suppose that is like with God how he gives from his infinite riches and wealth to give to us, who are in reality poor and needy. All good gifts come from above.
I know many proud people actually refuse God's gift cos they don't think they need Him. So they cannot accept and will not receive.

 

[Noblemen]

One way I would define grace is God the Father would take a sinner and rebirth them by birthing His Son Jesus Christ in them

 

[Lanolin]

When Paul says 'his grace is sufficient for me' I think he is meaning this. I mean God didnt remove his thorn even tho Paul asked. so I dont think God was giving Paul unmerited favour at that point cos God would have done Paul aN unmerited favour by removing it!

He was just saying that being His was enough. Having his heart belong to God was enough at that point in his walk.

 

[Klub]

When Paul says 'his grace is sufficient for me' I think he is meaning this. I mean God didnt remove his thorn even tho Paul asked. so I dont think God was giving Paul unmerited favour at that point cos God would have done Paul aN unmerited favour by removing it!

He was just saying that being His was enough. Having his heart belong to God was enough at that point in his walk.

Just because the thorn (whatever it was) was not removed, does not mean Paul did not see unmerited favor.

Paul pleads with God to remove this thorn, 3 times, and God responds with "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (2nd Corinthians 12:9) God's grace is in Salvation, and the grace on the cross covers all things. in verse ten Paul goes onto say "Therefore I will take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. "

The focus of Paul shifts from the pain he is experiencing back to God, specifically, the grace that God had shown him, and the grace that is continual. The unmerited favor of God is shown to each of us everyday through the gospel.

 

[Lanolin]

Thats what I meant salvation and being His is enough.
Theres no need to define it as unmerited favour cos God is not stingy.
My God isnt anyway.
Imagine Mary being told by the angel, that she was going to have a baby cos she had found 'unmerited favour' nuh-uh. The angel simply said, Mary had found favour. Nothing to do with being 'unmerited'. Why insert an extra word?
We know Mary was an humble peasant girl and a virgin. God saw her and obviously thought she deserved to bear the Messiah.
When Mary found out she was to bear the christ child she did not go oh Im so unworthy and dont deserve it Lord! No! she sang a song in praise of God. His grace had visited her and she felt special not unworthy. Her heart must have leapt with joy.
Paul likewise...even though God had to tell him three times...that his grace was sufficient...Paul knew that in his new life, he endured what nobody could have survived had he not had the Grace of God. Did he deserve this? YES! God thought so and was gracious enough to tell him.

 

[Euphemia]

When Paul says 'his grace is sufficient for me' I think he is meaning this. I mean God didnt remove his thorn even tho Paul asked. so I dont think God was giving Paul unmerited favour at that point cos God would have done Paul aN unmerited favour by removing it!

He was just saying that being His was enough. Having his heart belong to God was enough at that point in his walk.

Paul was the recipient of God's unmerited favour--GRACE, despite what your take on it is. His thorn was persecution and that is a promise God has made to all of us, that we will suffer it, but we will endure in His power, which is precisely Paul's story.

Why are you hung up on the word, "unmerited"? Do you think we can earn God's favour? That we deserve His grace?

 

[Klub]

We are getting secular grace, and God's grace confused.

Grace, from God, God's favor, is unmerited, we do not deserve anything from God, for a second. God did not create man to glorify man, God created everything to show God's glory. We are all wretched, we are all messed up. Yes, we may do something "right" but we do so much more wrong. That is why God's grace is unmerited, because we are of flesh, and he is holy. We cannot do anything to deserve anything from God.

However, when we do receive the Grace of God, we must take it. To reject a gift from God, or anybody, Is to say "look at me, I'm unworthy" that in and of itself is prideful and wrong.

Humbly take God's grace, be excited, but not boastful, because we all deserve death, and nothing else.

 

[Lanolin]

ooooh.
well that can be your view.
I'm sorry.
I don't agree. Mary wasn't boastful..she was singing praises. Only the wicked deserve death. In her song she was singing how the lowly are lifted up and the proud brought down. I don't think Mary was wretched and messed up. You talking about something different.

Jesus loved us enough to save us. HE didn't think we were wretched and miserable, even though we may think we are. So I see it as God's view of grace rather than man's view. I think once we know Jesus, who is grace and truth, we can't say, oh I didn't deserve to be your friend, even Jesus rebuked Peter for saying he was a sinful man. Thats a lie from satan. when Jesus was fishing with the disciples and he caught all those fish, Peter fell to his knees and told Jesus to depart from him..in other words, go away, I'm not worthy! Do you think Jesus listened to such foolishness? No he stayed and said don't be afraid, I will teach you.

Paul even wrote, mockingly, that he was wretched and miserable, and then asked the rhetorical question. Who will save me from this torment? answer - Jesus.

God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son, so whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

why, when we are in his grace, do we condemn ourselves by saying it was unmerited? You are only condemned if you do not believe. Jesus doesn't condemn you when you believe and he saves you, so why do christians keep insisting they are not worthy when they now are? God did not create everything for his glory just to show he is God. God is glory, he does not need to create for himself cos he likes himself! . He created out of LOVE and love must have something to love. You forget that originally, we are created in HIS IMAGE. It is a lie that God created us just to destroy us and show us who's boss, and that we are wretched and miserable. Only satan could try and ruin God's creation by making us think we wretched and miserable and tempting us to sin and be wicked. Originally, God created everything and it was good. And when he completed it, it was very good. God even blessed man and told them to go forth and multiply.

My God loves his creation and wants us to live.
Only satan wants to kill steal and destroy creation, and make us think we don't even deserve to live.

 

[Euphemia]

Actually, Lanolin, Jesus KNEW we were wretched and miserable and in need of the Saviour. That is why He came.

Jesus never rebuked Peter for His declaration of himself as a sinner!

We say, "unmerited" simply because the grace of God is unearned, a free gift that reconciles our sinful, hell-bound selves to God, His family and His Kingdom forever through faith!

 

[Klub]

If we aren't wretched, then we don't need salvation.

The heart of man is evil though, as found in jeramiah 17, and Romans 3:10 goes on to say that none are righteous, no not one. If we are not righteous, we are wicked. There is no middle "good person" groud. Not a single person aside from Jesus Christ was a good person. we are born into a sin nature, and every single one of us, who has ever lived, has this wretchedness of man. Peter fell to his knees because he acknowledged his wickedness and unworthiness, and Jesus showed him grace and acceptance. Much like we need to do if we are truly grieved and repent of our sins.

 

[Major]

Hmm. Well Im gonna say God thinks us worthy cos Jesus is worthy.

He sent his only begotten son to die for our sins because He LOVED us.
He did not think we were so undeserving and horrible after all. While we were yet sinners, he gave his very life. The son he loved most, dying for us. so he obviously thought we deserved saving.

Otherwise someone gonna have to rewrite John 3:16 to say God so hated the world that he sent his only begotten son so that we will get what we dont deserve. because he really thinks we should all perish after all. he was just doing us a favour with Jesus. If we dont take the bribe, we not going to heaven. cos God is stingy.

No. Thats just screwy.

It may very well be but it is the Word of God and IMO Euphemia has it completely right.

The Bible is very clear on this subject. Without Christ we are but worms in God’s sight.

David, the great Psalmist was lead of the Holy Spirit to describe himself in these same terms in Psalms 22:6 ......
"But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach of men and despised by the people."

And again man’s depraved state is described in Jude 10 .......
"But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed."

You...we may not like that but there it is!

Modern man recoils from this and does not want to admit it. We view ourselves as sophisticated and educated.
Man today views himself in his search for God neither as depraved nor unworthy. In his mind, of course Jesus died for ME because I am special!!!, Who wouldn’t die for ME is his thinking. And understand this, it was I who decided to become a Christian.
I chose God, He did not choose me and having chosen Him I expect that He perform up to expectations. I chose Him and I can un-choose Him. And what about those others who have trusted Christ but not lived up to the calling as I have, well they certainly are unworthy of spending eternity in heaven with me. Thus man in his rejection of depravity affirms his depravity.
I am not saying YOU personally are of that thinking but most I think will admit that it is true of man today.

By depravity I mean that state of man where he is totally helpless and indifferent to God. So corrupted by original sin and its consequences that he cannot and will not choose God. It is only in understanding depravity that we understand:
Romans 5:6 ..........."For while we were still helpless , at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

A man who can help himself is not helpless. Thus we all have a gross disgusting testimony. Having meditated on the great doctrine of depravity I believe that everyone will come to realize two great truths, which are the antitheses of Satan’s lies.


1.) Christ is indeed the Son of God, the sinless, pure and perfect sacrifice required due to our depraved state.

2.) Man is so totally depraved that he is helpless in his state, his salvation and resulting worth to God based solely on the merit of Christ’s sacrifice without reference to man nor his works.

I hope this helps the conversation.