Dealing with infamous people

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by boltardy, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. This is not a pleasant subject but I'd be interested in Christian views.

    In another thread, I mentioned the name Jimmy Saville. The evidence against him is overwhelming and I think the only conclusion we are left with is that his levels of abuse both in terms of trust given to him by establishments and in terms of vulnerable people is frightening.

    So the guy's dead and gone. He was a presenter of the biggest UK pop music program (Top of The Pops). He presented a program that sort of made dreams come true (Jim ll fix it) - they would maybe arrange for a child to meet their musical hero or perform some feat. He was involved in a big road safety campaign. He's not a figure easily removed from the memories of several generations of Brits.

    The main British outlook seems to me to just erase him from history but I'm not sure that is right. It seems to polish some people's morals but it also rewrites history.

    So how should we deal with it.

    Should we pretend he never existed. Should we say yes he did but he was a bad man. Should we just mention "Clunk Click" (road safety) without the feeling that someone will pick you up because he was involved? Should as I did attempt to write a "discalimer".

    What if we were to talk about Hitler....?

    I'm not talking about personal levels of forgiveness (I think these are clearly answered and in any case I'm not personally affected), I'm just asking about sort of day to day approaches to say conversation that might crop up.
  2. Aside from it being a chance to point out that Jesus died for everyone and that sin is sin (regardless of how offensive we personally do or do not consider a particular flavor or amount of it to be)...
    Do you or the person or people you are speaking with consider the offender or alleged offender to be an example (good or bad)?
    Will addressing the offense or alleged offense help bring understanding?

    To use Adolf as an example:
    Based on recorded history and the results of his orders, very few of us would hesitate to call him an evil person, but that commonality allows for some solid teaching points.
    Who was the greater offender; Adolf, those who followed his orders, those who refused to accept what was happenin, or those who ignored what was happening?
    From a tactical/management standpoint how did he fail?
    From a tactical/management standpoint how did he succeed?

    I don't see there being a set answer on how to approach such things.
    Ignoring them is not the answer, but neither is making them the center of the world.
    For me they become an opening to talk about sin, which (time and situation permitting) leads to the law and the gospel.
    boltardy likes this.
  3. Im not sure i have no idea who he is...
    As for adolf hitler I dont generally talk to people about him.

    I suppose its like in Fawlty Towers where Basil dosent want to mention the war in front of the German guests.

    Generally if a topic is unpleasant I dont bring it up. Like, I dont want to really talk about Bill Clintons misdemeanours with americans. I supoose its like gossiping in a way. God can judge if a person has repented (or not) but it does say in Ezekiel about someone who was good but turned evil will be judged while someone who was evil yet repented will be pardoned.

    I think God does see the people who are hurt by other peoples sin and especially children who cant speak up for themselves, he sees that. I know Jesus was hard on those sorts of people who ought to know better that cause little ones to stumble. I once met some christians, a family whos own parents were ministers, but they were put in prison cos of something or other. (I forget exactly what it was for) So they didnt pretend their parents didnt exist, but just were honest about what happened and why they were estranged from them.
  4. I think cos british people are by nature rather reserved and private people they feel queasy about airing 'dirty laundry' but then on the other hand its the brits who read tabloid newspapers.

    So..maybe theres a happy medium on how you handle a discussion if thats what you want to talk about. Its not always good to sweep things under the rug and pretend nothing bad ever happens. I mean, catholic church priest scandals...get covered up, but heaps of children were molested because it WAS covered up. Maybe its..what are we going to do about it that matters. Can we pray for those involved.

    Child abuse is a terrible thing that happens in peoples homes everyday. It might seem hopeless, that theres predators just everywhere. But we can pray for these children who dont have protection or loving guardians. Im really shocked when finding that a local principal of a highschool is caught and arrsted with child pornography. A principal! But it seems increasingly teachers of children dont have any morals anymore. I dont know what they teaching in training colleges these days but certainly not any moral codes or values.
  5. I will answer my impression on the understanding questions but this is on a nationwide level first.

    I think on that level, institutions (eg. hospitals) have seriously questioned their procedures.

    Very personally. On the one I used as an example, I often felt uneasy about the man (not that I met him, I just mean the public face). In no way do I mean about what emerged but there to me was something about his charity and stardom that didn't really sit right. But I guess you could open whole worlds of both personal and wider scale paranoia if you start thinking that way about people...
  6. #6 boltardy, Jul 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2015
    I think you make a very astute observation about many British people (I don't know the rest of the world - but would guess some of this is good old human nature - and I''''m fallible too..) here. We can indeed not want to air own dirty linen in public but at the same time devour scandals in the so called "gutter press".
  7. Unfortunately, there is no way short of catching them in the act, to easily and conclusively prove sexual abuse. Especially where children are concerned.
    Some people have had their lives ruined by false accusations even after they were found to be innocent of the charges.
    Others go free while their victims are shamed publically.
    Often well meaning counselors ask leading questions that children don't know how to handle.
    Personally, such cases should be handled as privately as possible, but convictions should be made unavoidably public and final.

    We were all given a conscience and a certain measure of instinct in regards to predator prey relationships. I don't recommend taking every hunch or feeling as die hard truth and definately being open to evidence, but there is often something to our 'feelings'.
    For the believer, there is also the leading of the Holy Spirit. Gifts like word of wisdom, word of knowledge, and prophecy can give profound insight once we learn to recognize His voice.
  8. I agree. With specific reference to pastors and councillors, I don't know him but my mother knew an RC priest who got hit badly by an unjust accusation (boys admitted to lying after the damage was done).

    There isn't (that I know of) a simple infallible solution but I guess that is the case with all our attempts at human justice.
  9. I mean what can you do? Once the spirit exposes them as wolves rather than sheep, all you can do is pray from that healing may occur for those effected.
  10. Lanolin, some of us are very opinionated, strong demeanour - however some are shy.
    autumn oddity likes this.
  11. Ah the famous Jimmy Saville, I say make sure everyone knows what he did and how the institution failed.
    He had far too much access to things he shouldn't.

    Forgetting him doesn't aid the victims (God rest their souls)

    I can remember this unfolding in the media.
  12. I'm not sure I come over this way here but I'm shy face to face. Used to have real difficulties as a kid and do in other ways now but that's part as I used a prop and got a dependence. Some people can't understand that in the right environment I might be able to sing solo (finger in the ear stuff) in a room of 50 "folkies" but also can struggle talking to someone. To some degree, I learned to act in some ways. I can still be both opinionated and shy though...
  13. Thanks for the view. Yes, the system/institution should not fail like that.
  14. #14 KingJ, Jul 29, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
    1. It is going to be hard to remember him wether they attempt to erase him or not. He left nothing behind that can be remembered. Radio and television < music. Not sure if I agree with you / fully understand history re writing itself. Wikipedia documents the good, bad and the claims.

    2. Christianity 101 is to not speak evil of others but to seek out the good. Especially when they not around to defend themselves.

    James 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

    It is hard to speak well of someone like Hitler and Nero. But that does not mean we speak evil of them.
  15. Thanks again for the views. I'm trying to take them all in.

    A totally wild figure but I'm going to guess there are thousands of top of the pops video clips with him as the presenter on youtube. There would also be loads of BBC footage. What I'm meaning be rewriting history is the sort of view that all this sort of stuff should be erased.

    In another case I can think of, the guy painted pictures. I've read of people wanting to burn his artwork.
  16. True :giggle:.
    That is ridiculous! But I guess on the other hand those that have been wronged by him can be forgiven for feeling the need to do such.

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