Days Of Noah

I can give you an example of one. A Roman Catholic priest that entered priesthood JUST to get at children. The point being that if the priest, pastor, etc is "unholy, nonbeliever, and became a teacher for another means than the love of Christ (God) than how can they convey something holy like a sacrament. Can a true holy sacrament be given by a "heretic". That would mean many people would need to be re-baptized. I'm sorry I just don't believe our loving and merciful God who wishes none to perish would leave us so vulnerable to another mans evil heart.
 
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Lisa8475 said:
I can give you an example of one. A Roman Catholic priest that entered priesthood JUST to get at children. The point being that if the priest, pastor, etc is "unholy, nonbeliever, and became a teacher for another means than the love of Christ (God) than how can they convey something holy like a sacrament. Can a true holy sacrament be given by a "heretic". That would mean many people would need to be re-baptized. I'm sorry I just don't believe our loving and merciful God who wishes none to perish would leave us so vulnerable to another mans evil heart.
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What would the difference be if it was an evangelical church leader who did it? A man who abused children, for example? If the man followed every step to the absolute letter and brought someone through the process of baptism in a flawless way, but he himself was guilty of a terrible sin like that?
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
What would the difference be if it was an evangelical church leader who did it? A man who abused children, for example? If the man followed every step to the absolute letter and brought someone through the process of baptism in a flawless way, but he himself was guilty of a terrible sin like that?
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I am not talking about sin (we all fall short of the glory of God), I am talking about becoming a pastor/priest with no belief/love of God in them but as a way for example to abuse children. I guess what I am trying to say is I believe baptism is an act of obedience versus a sacrament, the conveyance of a holy rite.
 
Lisa8475 said:
I am not talking about sin (we all fall short of the glory of God), I am talking about becoming a pastor/priest with no belief/love of God in them but as a way for example to abuse children. I guess what I am trying to say is I believe baptism is an act of obedience versus a sacrament, the conveyance of a holy rite.
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Well there are very clearly two (at LEAST two) completely different interpretations about what constitutes baptism within Christianity, there is believer's baptism as you practice but also infant baptism. I don't see how an infant or small child is going to be abused by anyone with both parents present plus witnesses, which is about the only way that kind of baptism would take place.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
Well there are very clearly two (at LEAST two) completely different interpretations about what constitutes baptism within Christianity, there is believer's baptism as you practice but also infant baptism. I don't see how an infant or small child is going to be abused by anyone with both parents present plus witnesses, which is about the only way that kind of baptism would take place.
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PeaceLikeaRiver said:
Well there are very clearly two (at LEAST two) completely different interpretations about what constitutes baptism within Christianity, there is believer's baptism as you practice but also infant baptism. I don't see how an infant or small child is going to be abused by anyone with both parents present plus witnesses, which is about the only way that kind of baptism would take place.
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Lyle_Savant said:
The apostles & Jesus said:
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth AND IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord."

Jesus said:
Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
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Lisa8475 said:
Here is my question if baptism is a "sacrament" what happens with all the babies/people that where baptized by heretics?
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Lisa8475 said:
If it is a sacrament and not an act of obedience then all the people baptized by a heretic where not truly baptized!
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You can refer to Catholic Encyclopedia if you are interested to know...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm#VI

State of soul of the minister
Due reverence for the sacraments requires the minister to be in a state of grace: one who solemnly and officially administers a sacrament, being himself in a state of mortal sin, would certainly be guilty of a sacrilege (cf. Summa Theologiæ III.64.6). Some hold that this sacrilege is committed even when the minister does not act officially or confer the sacrament solemnly. But from the controversy between St. Augustine and the Donatists in the fourth century and especially from the controversy between St. Stephen and St. Cyprian in the third century, we know that personal holiness or the state of grace in the minister is not a prerequisite for the valid administration of the sacrament. This has been solemnly defined in several general councils including the Council of Trent (Sess VII, can.12, ibid., de bapt., can. 4). The reason is that the sacraments have their efficacy by Divine institution and through the merits of Christ. Unworthy ministers, validly conferring the sacraments, cannot impede the efficacy of signs ordained by Christ to produce grace ex opere operato (cf. St. Thomas, III:64:5, III:64:9). The knowledge of this truth, which follows logically from the true conception of a sacrament, gives comfort to the faithful, and it should increase, rather than diminish, reverence for those sacred rites and confidence in their efficacy. No one can give, in his own name, that which he does not possess; but a bank cashier, not possessing 2000 dollars in his own name, could write a draft worth 2,000,000 dollars by reason of the wealth of the bank which he is authorized to represent. Christ left to His Church a vast treasure purchased by His merits and sufferings: the sacraments are as credentials entitling their holders to a share in this treasure. On this subject, the Anglican Church has retained the true doctrine, which is neatly proved in article XXVI of the Westminster Confession: "Although in the visible church the evil be ever mingled with the good, and sometimes the evil hath the chief authority in the ministration of the Word and Sacraments, yet forasmuch as they do not the same in their own name, but in Christ's, and do minister by His commission and authority, we may use their ministry both in hearing the Word of God and in receiving the Sacraments. Neither is the effect of Christ's ordinance taken away by their wickedness nor the grace of God's gifts from such as by faith, and rightly, do receive the sacraments ministered unto them; which be effectual, because of Christ's institution and promise, although they be administered by evil men" (cf. Billuart, de sacram., d. 5, a. 3, sol. obj.)
 
aha said:
You can refer to Catholic Encyclopedia if you are interested to know...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm#VI

State of soul of the minister
Due reverence for the sacraments requires the minister to be in a state of grace: one who solemnly and officially administers a sacrament, being himself in a state of mortal sin, would certainly be guilty of a sacrilege (cf. Summa Theologiæ III.64.6). Some hold that this sacrilege is committed even when the minister does not act officially or confer the sacrament solemnly. But from the controversy between St. Augustine and the Donatists in the fourth century and especially from the controversy between St. Stephen and St. Cyprian in the third century, we know that personal holiness or the state of grace in the minister is not a prerequisite for the valid administration of the sacrament. This has been solemnly defined in several general councils including the Council of Trent (Sess VII, can.12, ibid., de bapt., can. 4). The reason is that the sacraments have their efficacy by Divine institution and through the merits of Christ. Unworthy ministers, validly conferring the sacraments, cannot impede the efficacy of signs ordained by Christ to produce grace ex opere operato (cf. St. Thomas, III:64:5, III:64:9). The knowledge of this truth, which follows logically from the true conception of a sacrament, gives comfort to the faithful, and it should increase, rather than diminish, reverence for those sacred rites and confidence in their efficacy. No one can give, in his own name, that which he does not possess; but a bank cashier, not possessing 2000 dollars in his own name, could write a draft worth 2,000,000 dollars by reason of the wealth of the bank which he is authorized to represent. Christ left to His Church a vast treasure purchased by His merits and sufferings: the sacraments are as credentials entitling their holders to a share in this treasure. On this subject, the Anglican Church has retained the true doctrine, which is neatly proved in article XXVI of the Westminster Confession: "Although in the visible church the evil be ever mingled with the good, and sometimes the evil hath the chief authority in the ministration of the Word and Sacraments, yet forasmuch as they do not the same in their own name, but in Christ's, and do minister by His commission and authority, we may use their ministry both in hearing the Word of God and in receiving the Sacraments. Neither is the effect of Christ's ordinance taken away by their wickedness nor the grace of God's gifts from such as by faith, and rightly, do receive the sacraments ministered unto them; which be effectual, because of Christ's institution and promise, although they be administered by evil men" (cf. Billuart, de sacram., d. 5, a. 3, sol. obj.)
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dUmPsTeR said:
What can we glean from the days of Noah in comparison to these present days?


Matthew 24:37
But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:26
And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

1 Peter 3:20
who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Are these days now far from the days of Noah, and what is the difference?
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I personally believe we are now in the End Time Tribulations.

God’s wrath is coming down at this time.

I believe people are starting to suffer more than ever before, or will ever suffer again.
 
Lisa8475 said:
I appreciate your pointing out to me the catholic encyclopedia please consider the following verses from the bible regarding salvation.

http://expreacherman.com/believers-justification/
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Ah ok, will read it some time...
Although seems your first argument refers to the "heretic"... that is: to the minister of the sacrament, rather than the recipient....


BTW:
After you click reply, you can type immediately below it….
It is helpful to read, in case there will be other post in between exchange.
 
aha said:
Ah ok, will read it some time...
Although seems your first argument refers to the "heretic"... that is: to the minister of the sacrament, rather than the recipient....


BTW:
After you click reply, you can type immediately below it….
It is helpful to read, in case there will be other post in between exchange.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip :)
"heretic" may have been the wrong word that is why I gave an example of what I meant because I wasn't sure what the right word is for what I was trying to say.
 
Lyle_Savant said:
The apostles & Jesus said:
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth AND IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord."

Jesus said:
Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
Click to expand...


The apostles & Jesus said:
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth AND IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord."

Jesus said:
Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."


I am curious are you saying these verses prove you have to be baptized to be saved? If so, what about the thief on the cross"?
 
Lisa8475 said:
I am curious are you saying these verses prove you have to be baptized to be saved? If so, what about the thief on the cross"?
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Consider that the verse associated with this is often understood to be:

"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

But look how the meaning changes by simply moving the comma over one position:

"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
 
You don't have to be baptized to be saved. Water baptism as a child is a theatrical display that the parents are going to raise their child as a Christian.
 
LanceA said:
You don't have to be baptized to be saved. Water baptism as a child is a theatrical display that the parents are going to raise their child as a Christian.
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That is incorrect. It is an exorcism ritual that dedicates the child to God.
If you are going to talk about practices outside of your own church at least get the facts right.

And BTW, He said "repent and be baptised", not "repent and be baptised if you feel like it".
 
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