Daily Thought - The Joel Osteen Most People Do Know

Discussion in 'Thoughts for Today' started by anthony wade, Jan 2, 2014.

  1. Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 2Timothy 4: 2 (NIV)

    As 2013 fades into the background an article from earlier in the year came to my attention regarding Joel Osteen, who pastors the largest church in America. I reference and write about Mr. Osteen often because his "preaching" remains so offensive to the actual Gospel of Jesus Christ. It does not take much more than a sliver of discernment to realize that the self-help, sugar coated gospel he preaches is simply incapable of saving anyone. That does not mean that someone cannot be saved at Lakewood Church. God is everywhere and not to difficult to find if you are genuinely seeking Him but those that are blessed enough at Lakewood are saved in spite of the preaching, not because of it. The article was entitled, "The Joel Osteen Most People Do Not Know", and can be found here:


    The author is Pastor Phil Munsey and to claim objectivity would be deceptive. Munsey has been a staunch Osteen backer and member of his "Champions Network" of churches across this nation. In fact, it was sometime after publishing this fluff piece on Osteen that Munsey was rewarded by being named the Director of the Champions Network, which required him leaving his church. Regardless of the conflicts of interest however, all one needs to do is read the article to see that the arguments in favor of Osteen are carnal in nature and largely not supported by Scripture. I have heard the arguments that pointing out such error is "negative" and that the growing preference in the church today is for "Kumbya Christianity" where we all sing happy songs until Christ comes and we find that He never knew us. The key verse today dispels such preferences however. As preachers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ we are to be prepared in all circumstances to correct, rebuke and encourage, using great patience ands careful instruction. We must remember what is at stake here when we discuss such matters - the salvation of those who seek God.

    Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. - 1Timothy 4: 16 (NIV)

    While it is true we can never expect to find a pure church we most certainly should be seeking pure doctrine. This instruction from Paul to Timothy makes it clear beloved. The very salvation of those who would hear the message is what is at stake. So with no apologies to Mr. Osteen, I am far more concerned about the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people who follow him and belive they are saved when in all likelihood they are not. Let us take a look at some of the arguments made by Pastor Munsey.

    Sure, Joel touches 40 million people monthly through television and other media. His books have impacted over 30 million people and counting, including 5 New York Times best-sellers.

    Yes, with titles such as "Your Best Life Now" and "Every Day a Friday" we see that his books are best sellers that have very little to do with God. So yes, Joel touches millions but not with God nor for His glory.

    Joel is not a televangelist. His dedication as a pastor is reflected in this interesting fact. In the past 14 years, Joel has missed an average of just two weekend services a year. Even though Joel speaks at 38 of those weekends services annually, you'll still find him sitting on the front row (including Wednesday nights) when not speaking, faithfully serving his flock and being a humble example (including shaking hands with the guests and new converts for one hour between services).

    No one has ever argued about the personality, dedication, or humility of Joel Osteen. It is part of his public persona that has netted him a nifty net worth in excess of 40 million dollars. I hope he is even like that behind closed doors. None of it however has anything to do with God or the Gospel.

    Joel has his critics. They post his "gotcha" clips from his hundreds of secular media interviews.

    This is where the author simply leaves reality. First of all, it is no one's fault other than Joel Osteen that he decides to go onto so many secular media outlets for publicity. He does so to promote every new book he writes. It is equally no one's fault when he proceeds to deny Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, as he did on Larry King. Or when he couldn't answer the question about sinners and heaven. Or when he mangled the question about unbelievers and heaven. Or when he went on Oprah and slandered sound doctrine. Munsey tries to shift the blame to those who would dare question Osteen by referring to the media clips as "gotchya" instead of placing the blame where it belongs. Let's be frank. We do not need the media clips to denounce Osteen. We just need his preaching which is filled with self help, word faith, and hyper prosperity heresies every single week. Osteen is on record for saying that he will not apologize for using Scripture sparingly, sometimes not even bringing it in until the very end of his "sermon." Munsey tried to sugar coat that as well:

    Joel's messages are skillfully and prayerfully laced with an average of a dozen or so Scripture references. (Joel has observed that multiple references to verses and books in the Bible to the high percentage of unbelievers in the television audience can be intimidating).

    I have never heard twelve references in a Joel Osteen message. I have gone through entire Osteen sermons without hearing him say the name of Jesus Christ. When he does mention Scripture it is in passing, as Munsey skillfully words here as "references." That means the actual Scripture, which has the power to break yokes in the lives of people, is not recited but merely referenced. To Joel the mere presence of Scripture, which is the power of God mind you, is intimidating to the audience? Wow.

    But what some call weakness is really Joel's strength. Joel refuses with uncompromising conviction to use secular guest appearances to judge people. His kindness has kept the hearts and minds of millions receptive. Joel is a friend to sinners.

    This was Munsey's main theme throughout the article. That Joel Osteen is a friend to sinners. I could go through the rest of the piece but most of it are simply carnal arguments made by someone who is close to the Osteens and has been promoted by them and gained personally from them. Instead I will close focusing on the main thread Munsey presents because when you unravel that, the rest of the arguments are laid bare as simply carnal in nature and easily dismissed.

    Because the world already knows Joel Osteen. He goes on secular media nearly every month to make sure we know him. He preaches into the living rooms of America every week to make sure we know him. I have never impugned the motives of Joel Osteen. He strikes me as a really nice guy. I do not view him as a snake oil salesman like Benny Hinn or Mike Murdock. Regardless of how nice Joel is, how sincere Joel is, or how generous Joel is with his millions, his teaching remains anathema. He has always been unapologetic about his word faith teachings and routinely makes people "declare" things for their life that will simply never come to pass. He remains unapologetically focused on material wealth in this world as being prosperity. I heard him declare last year on New Years Day to 45,000 people that this was their year for supernatural blessing! All of them! Such heresy is a dangerous leaven poisoning the Body of Christ. No matter how much Munsey tries to dress Joel up in salvation, the Christ he presents to people is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible and thus has zero power to save anyone. His is a bloodless gospel. It is virtually a Christless gospel. It is a gospel devoid of any serious discussion about sin and repentance, without which there is no salvation.

    For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. - 2Timothy 4: 3

    Munsey tried valiantly to prop his friend up but what he failed to realize is we do not need to see the Joel Osteen we do not know because we already see the Joel Osteen that we do know. Munsey claims that God told him Osteen was a friend to sinners, as Jesus was. He must of misheard Him. Joel Osteen is not a friend to sinners. He is a friend of sinners.

    Rev. Anthony.
  2. Publicly putting down someone "As if there are not millions to put down" and you have the title "REV"?
    Got the title from one of those "School of the Prophet" places? How much is that, I was thinking about grabbing one myself.
  3. My credentials are from the Assemblies of God. About 4.5 years of study and a year and a half application process. As for "putting down" - the Bible is quite clear that we are to call false teachers out and by name. We need to be more concerned about the hundreds of thousands of souls who follow the false teacher than the delicate sensibilities of the false teacher himself.
  4. I use to attend Assemblies of God. A few questions.

    1) how many you saved putting down this man publicly?

    2) What scripture are we to put down False teachers publicly whom we are not given charge of or of our own ministry? Paul warned of certain teaching.

    3) Joel is not under you, or you in any position to put him down publicly. If you don't consider Joel even saved, then why not pick on those that Make playboy or something?

    Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

    4) do you feel by putting down someone, that it lifts you up in some way?

    5) Are you picking on Joel because of his wealth? and more are more apt to listen to him than you?

    6) Are you so insecure in your gift to lead and instruct that you feel if you don't put down people then those the Lord gave you would leave and you would be left with nobody?

    Big Question!!!

    If you were in Error, would you rather I put your name out publicly about how bad you are, or get on my knee's and pray for you to make it and get it right with all the grace to do so?

    You must be perfect to put this out about another man publicly. You will reap what you have sown.

  5. 1) You try to ask a serious question in the middle of a false narrative. Speaking the truth is not "putting this man down." Now, if your question is how many are eventually saved by reading the truth about the false teacher they follow, I will have to wait until glory. I do pray many lives.

    2) Ephesians 5:11 comes to mind but certainly there are several examples where Paul publicly names those in his various churches who have veered into false teachings. Once again though you create an unbiblical false narrative and speak as if it is accepted fact. Nobody is "in charge" of Joel Osteen's ministry so in your false narrative, who would hold the responsibility for correcting him?

    3) These are two different questions. First, your false argument. Joel does not have to be under me for me to point out his false doctrine. Sorry but that is simply unsupported biblically. If there was truth in your second scenario, I would seek to expose Joel as opposed to Hugh Hefner because Joel is poisoning the body of Christ, where Hugh is simply poisoning a dead culture. I

    Romans 14:4 - the first rule of hermeneutics (Bible interpretation) is context/ Allow me to include it:

    Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

    The issues Paul is talking about are side issues of doctrine. Of one group preferring meat one way and another a different way. In other words, differences that are not eternal in nature. For a contemporary example i would think of something like pre-trib or post trib. It does not affect your salvation which view of Eschatology you hold and thus is not worth a doctrinal argument that would split one brother against another. When it comes to false teachers however we are clearly to expose them because they lead many astray.

    Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior. This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith. -- 2Timothy 2: 15-18 (NLT)

    This is one of the examples of Paul naming names. He does so because the salvation of people are on the line.

    4) Not at all. I always write that I am the least of these. In fact I do not want to be lifted up.

    5) You keep trying to get a rise out of me, lol. I do not criticize Joel because he is rich and in fact I have written before giving him credit for not taking a salary. I criticize Joel because his "preaching" is an affront to God and the Gospel and because he prevents people from entering the kingdom of God.

    6) Hmmm, not even sure where this is coming from. I simply write what God gives me to write. If He then chooses to remove people from my sphere or if they choose to leave on their own, so be it. He is God, not me. I do not hold a mega church attitude.

    Big Answer - If i was in such serious error where the lives of people were at stake I sincerely pray that people who call themselves my brothers and sisters would correct me. I am not important. People seeking God are important and if my doctrine is leading them away from Him - dear God I pray people would correct me. And pray, I could always use more prayer.

    Sub Point One - I am far away from perfect. I do not however need perfection to call out false teachers. Under that unbiblical reasoning no false teachers would ever be called out because no one is ever perfect.

    Sub Point Two - Finally something that is Biblical. I will reap what I sow, as will you. You continue to stand up for the poster child of false teachers who is leading the sheep to slaughter. A man who believes in two of the biggest heresies in recent history in false prosperity and word faith. A man who openly denied Christ as the only way to heaven on national television. A man who as a pastor said on national television that telling people what the Bible says they should or should not do is not his "gifting." A man who on national television said he could not answer if people who followed other religions or were living in completely rebellious lifestyles were going to heaven or not. THAT is who you have spent two days defending, all the while mocking a minister of God you do not even know. Making erroneous conclusions about a minister of God you do not know. You are right. We all will reap what we sow. We will be held to account for every careless word. I will pray for you.

    But realize this. I have responded now twice to inflammatory posts from you. I will not a third time. If you wish to have a dialogue I will be happy to do so because iron sharpens iron. But drop your nonsense or your next post goes straight to the moderators and we can let them decide. Be well.
  6. Go cry to the moderators, I am a grown man, so I don't go "Tell" something.

    Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 2Timothy 4: 2 (NIV)
    I suppose you went right to the rebuke part and left out the encourage, patience and careful instruction part. Your amazing.

    Eph 5:11 talk about whoremongers and those that do vile things in secret. You need to read the whole passage, because Joel leads a clean life. Can you back this accusation?

    Name one person Joel has prevented from Ruling with God? Just one. You know Kingdom is not a place and a Greek female noun, right?
    When did Joel deny Christ is the only way to Heaven? You talking about His Larry King interview?

    Making things up about someone is scriptural in your book since you bypass the part about encouraging and twist Eph 5:11 to suit your needs.

    Joel Osteen:
    Joel never stated once that Jesus Christ was not the only way, He does not even believe that, but here you are making stuff up about someone.

    Larry King:

    Larry King wants Joel to admit that Muslims follow the wrong faith and that they are wrong. Joel said 3 times He don't know, but He wants to have a relationship with Jesus. If I am trying to reach millions including Muslims whom Jesus died for, I am also not going to answer that question the way Larry King wanted. It's stupid to do so because then I cut off many I could have reached.

    Joel went back after reading the transcripts and corrected what he meant to say, He was trying to avoid putting others down in the interview, which you seem to have no issue with.
    To say that Joel denied Jesus is the Only way to heaven is a lie. You are a False Backbitter Sir, and you make up things that are not true as Joel never said that, and Joel does not believe that.

    I am going to assume though that you just did not care enough to research your accusations, and that you do want to get it right.

    As for the Prosperity Gospel and Word of faith? What is that? You did not give the readers a clue to what that is, you just made up terms to make a point.

    So your saying scriptures do not prosper anything and there is no prosperity to be given in the Word of God? Being saved and avoiding hell seems pretty prosperous to me, why not you?

    Give and it shall be given, your seed multiplied seems prosperous to me.

    Nothing by any means shall hurt you and I give you all authority over the enemy (Luke 10:19) seems pretty prosperous to me.

    I would repent, and keep from putting others down. You saved nobody from entering into the Kingdom of God because they would have to have more serious issue than to listen to Joel to miss that.

  7. It is not about telling something. It is about whether you are an honest broker in this conversation and so far you do not appear to be. I will try to be brief but there is so much wrong with your post:

    1) Regarding 2tim 4: 2 - Osteen has been encouraged already and he has been corrected multiple times. He does not agree with the correction which takes him from mere error into the realm of false teaching.

    2) Eph 5: 11 is not just about whoremongers> Read Gills exposition of the Bible here:


    Matthew Henry agrees as well. Your argument essentially is have nothing to do with whoremongers but anyone else who is working for darkness, yeah go ahead, knock yourself out. The entire context of the bible disagrees with that.

    4) Osteen on Larry King - You ruin your own point be reprinting his apology to his congregation! He was forced to apologize because he waffled on national television about Jesus being the only way! Later in the show a female caller called in and called him on it and he further hemmed and hawed. Dude you are so wrong on this it is pitiful. Even Osteen backers and Osteen himself have apologized and moved on. By the way, I do not believe that is what Joel believes. I think when you try to please everyone at the same time your doctrine can get fuzzy. He made a mistake and apologized for it. You somehow are still defending it though which is simply laughable.

    5) Osteen on Muslims - so you think you can reach more Muslims by not sharing the truth with them that Jesus is the only way? Wow you sure are married to the seeker friendly mindset. Of course no one gets saved that way.

    6) Prosperity Gospel - preaching earthly gain over heavenly gain. Your description of salvation and avoiding hell is correct biblical prosperity. Joel emphasizes material gain, increasing your worldly prosperity etc...

    7) Word Faith - the belief that your words have the power to dictate to God essentially. Do a google search it is well known false doctrine. Joel just wrote an entire book about declaring things into your life.

    8) I appreciate your concerns but I am ok with my position because I know what God has called me to do. You have spent three days now defending a man. I have spent three days defending God. You have done so blindly, taking positions that even Joel himself have admitted to while claiming to not even know what the prosperity and word faith gospels are? Ok, not sure how you reconcile that.
  8. I am trying to pinpoint your beef with Joel. You did not mention money in that last post so that is good. Joel did not apoligize, he clarified and said several times to Larry King........ "I don't Know"

    Surely if you or I don't word things perfect there would be some grace to make more clear our meaning? Joel said for him Jesus is the way, so he did not advocate during the interview that there is another way like the media claims.

    Word of Faith:
    I am not sure exactly what that means. Faith comes by hearing and by hearing the word, so I am not sure how you don't want faith from the Word.

    I also don't see any scripture where we dictate to God. God spoke, we believe it or we don't believe it. (Best to believe it though)
    God has reasoned with people and changed his mind for them, but I don't think that is what you meant.

    I have not read Joel's book, so I can't give an opinion on it.

    Scripture says that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So any "REAL" declaring would have to come out of a belief system that was sown in by the Word, or sown in by junk and the World.

    I don't know what you mean by dictate to God, but not speaking the Word is not taking sides with him.

    Saying I am broke all the time is not saying God supply all my needs according to his riches and glory. Jesus said you have what you say, if you believe it in your heart. The mouth don't change until the belief system changes.

    So what you say does matter, your speaking the problem, or speaking the Word.
    (Jesus said that you have what you say)

    Dictating to God:

    Without faith, or a belief in your heart, there can be no power to say anything. I can't use Mark 11:23 to declare myself a millionaire if I don't believe in my heart. The only way to get that is to have heard something.

    If God puts in your heart that you will preach here to millions, then you have a right to believe and say that.

    Without hearing, there is no faith, so we just don't make stuff up and start speaking it and expect it to happen. We have to compare all the scriptures.

    I will have a Lamborghini is not something I can believe and declare unless God specifically said I am going to give you a Lamborghini.

    I will have to look up this Prosperity Gospel and this Faith dictate to God stuff.

  9. There is always room for grace. I have said he made a mistake on Larry King, which he has apologized for. He published an open letter apology to his congregation over it. The matter is not in dispute at all.

    Word faith believes that what we speak changes what God will do. Here are some relevant Osteen quotes:
    • "You can cancel out God's best plan by speaking negative words."
    • "Many of you today know this, you believe it down here in your heart. But the reason that you're not experiencing as much as you should is because your not declaring it. You've got to give life to your faith by speaking it out. Your words have creative power. When you go around saying, 'I have favor, people want to be good to me and supernatural doors are opening.' When you make those declarations of faith, you are charging the atmosphere. And your own words can help to bring it to pass. That is why we should get into the habit of every day consistently speaking God's favor over our lives."
    • "I believe one of the main ways that we grow in favor is by declaring. It's not enough to just read it. It's not enough to just believe it. You've got to speak it out. Your words have creative power. One of the primary ways we release our faith is through our words. There is a divine connection between you declaring God's favor and seeing God's favor manifested in your life. And some of you are doing your best to please the Lord. You are living a holy consecrated life, but you're not really experiencing God's supernatural favor. And it's simply because you're not declaring it. You've got to give life to your faith by speaking it out."
    There is nothing true or biblical about these quotes. Now, I am all for positive self talk. I think we can talk ourselves out of action. But that's where the line must be drawn. God is sovereign.

    My "beef" is that he does not preach the Gospel. He is a self help teacher holding a bible. Now, that does not impugn his heart. I can believe that he wakes up every day truly believing he is doing what is right. But we can be sincere and sincerely wrong. My concern is that tens of thousands of people attend his church and never meet Jesus. That hundreds of thousands of people follow him on TV and never meet Jesus. He does not discuss sin or repentance and without that there is no salvation. He sells earthly prosperity instead of heavenly prosperity.
    Kurt75 likes this.
  10. I understand...........

    You provided real statements.

    You can cancel out God's plans though by not agreeing with God and speaking the opposite. We don't escape the fact Jesus said we have what we say and believe and the bible is full of places where God said one thing for people but they spoke and choose something else. The Children of Israel is a good example of this.

    God said I am going to take you in the Land of Milk and Honey. They said God sent us out here to kill us and our children.

    We have two conflicting reports here.

    Num_14:28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

    So Joel would be right on your first account, I have more scriptures but we just can't do and speak what we want and expect God to perform for us all the plans he has despite our speaking against them.

    Joel's Second Report:
    I personally speak the Word only. If I see symptoms of sickness I don't say that, I say by his stripes I am the healed. I side with the Word always. I am not moved by what I see, but what I believe.

    Jesus spoke to fevers, trees and told us to speak to mountains. So speaking to things must be correct or else Jesus would have never mentioned it.

    I don't know about "Words have creative Power" There is one power that is God and the Lord goes with us confirming His Word with signs. Jesus said have faith in God, whosoever says unto this mountain. Some say have God's faith.

    Being anointed of God, and being Children of God, our Words do carry authority in heaven and in earth. That authority though is not us. Jesus name carries all authority but that is not our name.

    I would have worded this lots different than Joel as to not make people think that their own words have any power to create or bring things to pass. There is only one creator.

    Joels's 3rd Report (point)

    Favor or grace comes by doing the Will of God. I declare I have the favor of God, and don't doubt that. I agree that speaking the Word does give life (To ourselves) as God told Joshua to meditate day and night on the Word so that "Joshua" will make himself prosperous. No doubt what God already said about us is true if we agree, just as those that agree and believe on Jesus who already went to the cross.

    But to say your not seeing good things because your not declaring it???????? is missing the obedience and doing the Will of God. We speak the Word only, but you can speak all day with nothing happening if your not obeying also.

    Job_36:11 If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.

    Prosperity comes from obedience, not just speaking only. You need obedience and to agree with God and His word.

    I would have worded that a lot different only.

    My Pastor knew Joels Father Anthony, I hear great things about him. I know Joel does truly believe what He is saying is correct and it's upbeat. Joel is using positive affirmation with some scriptures and He may not be telling the whole story. We do have what we say, I have not only experienced it but what you say can kill you if you believe. We call those things that be not as though they were just like our Father.
    I personally would like Joel to remove some things and add the obey God part. Nobody gets blessed without that obedience. I see where Joel is coming from, but it seems real incomplete.

    Still Anthony, I don't see the real big issue here. Not anymore than someone saying tongues has passed away. I do see your point, but there is just so many people we could dog on. Benny Hinn got up publicly and said he wants to punch Joel in the face for his Larry King interview. This comes from a man who gets ridiculed all the time and then does the same thing himself.

    It's this judgement Anthony, it don't make us stronger we should not tear each other down. Joel leads a super clean life, loves the Lord, and so he does not teach like we would. I would rather not tear him down.

  11. Hinn is a false teacher and prophet extraordinaire. No love lost there.

    Joel's father was a real Gospel preacher from what I gather. No argument from me.

    I will make another attempt here. I agree with you that Joel very well can get up every day and think he is doing what is right. I make no assertions about his heart. By contrast, i view someone like Hinn as someone who knows full well what he is doing is wrong. But why are we in this thing called Christianity if not to be concerned bout the lost. Not concerned about how they view themselves. Not concerned about how they speak about themselves. Not concerned about anything but their fallen sinful state and how they will spend an eternity in hell unless someone shares the life saving Gospel of Jesus Christ. As well intended as Joel may be, he simply does not do that and I strongly believe that hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake. I am sure he leads a super clean life. I am glad he does because so many in his position don't. That does not change the fact that his doctrine is seriously flawed and will not save anyone. Also realize he is far from the only one. He is just the most famous one. I appreciate the tone we both have taken in the past few exchanges. Blessings.
  12. Well, Bless God. I don't dislike you, I have a soap box about speaking against other ministers. Joel won't put anyone in Hell, will choose to look bad instead of saying anything bad about anyone. He believes in positive affirmation and confessing constantly the promises of God.

    I don't think He has a Hell and brimstone sermon though, but I can see His point about siding with God and staying positive even though things don't look good.

    He does not word things Like I would and I would certainly clear up anything about "Words with creative Power" I think He has half the picture. There is a fine line of knowing to be created in the Image of God and having what you say, to I can have whatever I say. It does not work like that.

    Benny Hinn:

    I will just say God bless Brother Hinn. I mean if Creflo Dollar got mad at him when He let Hinn preach at his church, then.............. You know Brother Hinn needs work. His ministry is not what it use to be, he has lost many that followed him and NOBODY can stay out of the will of God and make it.

    God is far more merciful than what we imagine. But Error does not continue and men who speak wrongly never finish their ministry.

    Listening to Brother Jim Baker....... Man, God sent several to warn him but that money blinded him. He lost everything, went to prison, and in Prison was diagnosed with cancer. He lives down the street from me and has a small studio now. His belief has changed 180 degree's when it comes to money.

    Jimmy Swaggart: Did have the chance to break off that relationship was warned........

    William M. Branham used mighty of God in healing and just outstanding miracles got into some serpent seed doctrine, then some pyramid doctrine. he use to be spot on, but something got in and it just festered. It got so bad most that followed him left and God sent several to warn him or else.
    He took the or Else and died in a head on collision in the 1960's by a drunk driver.

    What I am saying Brother Anthony is that what we may not agree with us, does not always not agree with God. There is a order of things and God will and does remove those that are hurtful.

    A good brother I knew had it all set up for him to be a Pastor out of prison. He did preach a good faith sermon and encouraged many. God kept his kids, wife and had a position for him.
    He had to do One more drug drop to catch some bills up, that was it He told his wife,then He would never do it again. He knew and was shot and killed.

    Ken Dignan:
    A assemblies of God Pastor and author of "Till Healing comes" The book in my opinion is a faith crushes and lots of misquotes of scriptures. Certainly not the "Old School" Assemblies of God we use to know with the healing lines. I doged this guy out because in my mind He was hurting others.

    Because of what I had to reap and being corrected by the Lord, I don't dog any one out anymore. When I reach perfection, then I will but not until. Ken can answer to the Lord.

    I don't listen to Joel, but I know He loves God. I ask you take another look at a man you don't want to hate. Joel has one of the most gentle spirits I know of any preacher today. It could be that is just what God wants him to do, to encourage others. when they want some more meat, they can come to you.

    God moves people all the time if they want more truth, Joel is a good place to start if you have been put down and condemned all your life as being worthless. May not be what we want to hear, but we don't have the ministry Joel has either.

    All I ask is that you give it consideration.

    We can always talk about Brother Copeland :)
    that man is not confused about what he preaches.

    Blessings, It has been nice talking.
  13. Matthew5:36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.

    Joel Osteen is a nice fellow, but a false teacher. He spews feel-good nonsense.
    Say it and pray it leads a lot of ignorant people into failure.
  14. We can always talk about Brother Copeland :)
    that man is not confused about what he preaches.
    He is not confused? Everything he says is confused.
    He has spouted some of the most mindnumbingly stupid blather I've ever heard.
    God's hat size! Really?
  15. You must understand that Joel may indeed have a gentle heart and certainly preaches a lot about the goodness of God but he ignores the remainder of the Gospel. Some may think that is not a big deal but those who follow him and think they are saved but are not will find it a big deal on judgment day. As a minister, he will be held to account for every person he was supposed to speak the true Gospel to. Every one. Read acts 20. Paul says he is free of the blood of the Ephesians because he did not hesitate in proclaiming the entire will of God to them.

    It is ironic you brought up Copeland, who is the same exact mold as Osteen. Word faith and prosperity. But listen, i appreciate the dialogue and realize not everyone has the same burdens from God. Glomung is correct. When we consider salvation we do not need to feel good about ourselves we need to feel better about the grace and mercy of God. Many blessings to you.
  16. I actually love Brother Copeland. His Ministry was very detrimental to me during my early years. His Granddaughter went to our church for a bit and I get to see him during the Branson Victory Campaign. He has the most awesome staff.
  17. You love him but he was detrimental? Did you mean instrumental?

  18. You and I need to stay edified and full of Joy. May not be felling "good" about ourselves or position but we need to stay full of Joy or else some issues are hard to bare for others.

    Go back to the days of the early Assemblies of God churches. Folks like Smith Wigglesworth who was very involved with the Assemblies of God Churches and in their heritage archive.

    Later Kenneth E. Hagin Pastor of I think 5 Assemblies of God churches and was promoted by them everywhere.

    It was the days God was revealing back the Power of the Holy Spirit to people. Somewhere in the dark ages Satan was able to stop any belief of the Holy Spirit and any gift that may have been there. It was these early years with much help of Great people and the assemblies of God Churches were people were taught to believe on all God has for us.

    The problem is......... Our traditional folks (Baptist, Methodist so on) where not ready to jump on the band Wagon. Could be the reason Pastor Hagin was Pastor of so many Baptist churches because there were not many Pentecostal churches and He thought they were nuts for a long time.

    Don't forget the roots Brother Anthony.

    All the focus in them days where the Holy Spirit and great things happened.

    Then came along something called "WORD OF FAITH"

    The term was only made because our Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal groups were spliting and toning it down a bit. The apostolic split was major. Otherwise there would be no new "WORD OF FAITH"

    Where did it start?

    Back in 1963 a Man named Oral Roberts who got his start in the Assemblies of God churches with healing revivals started a university with the Assemblies of God. They are still connected today and many fine Assemblies of God ministers came from ORU.
    Billy Graham was the keynote speaker...

    In 1967 God told a man named Kenneth Copeland to join ORU. He walked in with no money, and Oral Roberts gave him a job instead to transport him around by plane and car.

    You see the progression here in God bringing back having faith in the Word.
  19. Let me just say a couple things.

    1) My credentials do not prevent me from seeing what has been and remains biblically wrong within the assemblies.

    2) Hagin is the father of the word faith heresy.

    3) I just do not want anyone reading to be confused. We always should have faith in the word of God. What word faith teaches is faith in the ability of OUR words. Big difference.

    Good night. Church in the morning.
  20. could be my English is not as good as it should be........... Detrimental would be a bad thing, right? I blame it on the spell checker.

    In prison I had tons of books by everyone. Catholic, You name it. There was a group of brothers though all black men who took me under their wing. I was raised Baptist and Methodist. These brothers were crazy in my opinion but it's all I had.

    Wife had left me for another man, I was pretty much sure God hated me, so it was a rough time for me, self inflicted of course.

    I got a hold of a book by Smith Wigglesworth. Some nuts stuff in that book and had to read it a few times to make sure I was not reading about some occult. I was clueless, and it did not make it better because the believers God put me with spoke in tongues during prayer time.

    What changed my thinking and life was a situation where one brother came back with news of having cancer. I figured he was a goner for sure, because folks in Baptist church from my experience got prayed for but thy will was most the time they die anyway.

    The Elder Brother spoke over him. He said Cancer in the name of Jesus you die, you must let our brother go. Then everyone agreed that it was done. Sounded like some hoodoo thing to me. (I did not know Matt 18 yet)

    I went to the Elder Brother and told him we had to keep praying because the brother that had cancer helped me a lot and kept me out of the way for gang bangers which I was ignorant of at the time. He stuck up for me.

    He looked at me and said...... "Brother Mike, Cancer has to die in the name of Jesus, He is going to be just fine."

    That was sort of like the stuff I read in that Wigglesworth book.

    It was a couple weeks later the brother with cancer came back and said there is not a trace of cancer in him. How is that possible?

    That was not the only Miracle I saw, so I started to compare notes.

    It was about a year, I saw a Believers voice of Victory with Brother Copeland. I had been reading Brother Hagin at the time so I wrote Copland ministry and he sent me any material I asked for. I spent day and night listening and I never missed a believers voice of victory. It was not long I was made the head of all the believers in my wing, any prayer or issue they came to me. God did some amazing things for everyone.

    Doubt and unbelief was out. I also tithed my 1.00 which was 10% of what I made monthly.

    Out of prison and in 2001 I got the news from the wife. My 8 year old son was diagnosed with terminal cancer.

    Jesus said all things are possible to him that believe, what if you don't believe? What happens then?

    All I can say is thank you Lord for Brother Copeland.

    Blessings to all.

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