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Daily Thought - The False Narrative Of America's Repentance

Discussion in 'Thoughts for Today' started by anthony wade, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. This is what the Lord Almighty says:“Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;they fill you with false hopes.They speak visions from their own minds,not from the mouth of the Lord. - Jeremiah 23: 16 (NIV)



    God has a plan of redemption. The Bible teaches us that He wishes none to perish but all to come to repentance. His desire is to see everyone put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He is realistic however and knows who will accept this free gift of salvation and who will not. The vehicle God has chosen to bring the glorious message of salvation to the lost is the church. The church was supposed to set apart. It was supposed to be different. It was supposed to be a light set upon a hill that people suffering in the world could look to as a source of comfort and assuredness. Over the centuries however, the church has devolved off of the position God intended it to hold into the skewed caricature we see today. When the lost look to the church today they no longer see anything different. They no longer see anything holy. They see their reflection.



    I say this as a backdrop to the increasing false narrative of people like Jonathan Cahn and Paul McGuire. Regarded as experts on biblical prophecy, these two men have generated a lot of buzz lately regarding our impending doom, via the second coming of Christ. Cahn has been trying to sell his book The Harbinger, which appears to be based largely on numerology. McGuire has long hosted his own program. Let us not assume any ill will on their part, instead let us turn to the false arguments they make. First of all, we do not need a prophecy scholar to tell us that we are living in the end times. The increase in wickedness is evident. The love of most growing cold is increasing. The wars and rumors of wars are coming as birth pains as are the natural disasters Jesus Had warned us about. Jesus also had little time for those who could not connect the obvious dots:



    Then Jesus turned to the crowd and said, “When you see clouds beginning to form in the west, you say, ‘Here comes a shower.’ And you are right. When the south wind blows, you say, ‘Today will be a scorcher.’ And it is. You fools! You know how to interpret the weather signs of the earth and sky, but you don’t know how to interpret the present times. - Luke 12: 54-56 (NLT)



    How do we interpret the present times? We start with dismissing what is leading us in the wrong direction. Remember, the church is the chosen vehicle to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost. There are enough problems within the church to resolve without wasting our time chasing man made prophecies down rabbit holes. The first thing to dispel is this notion that America needs to "turn back" to God. The implication is that at some time this was a Christian nation, which worshiped Jehovah and at some point turned away from Him, necessitating our need to turn back to Him. Jonathan Cahn goes as far as to say that America was actually under covenant with God and equates us to Israel! This all makes for a wonderful bedtime story and might even sell a few million books but none of it is true. None of it. As a former teacher of American history I can tell you this narrative is historically inaccurate. Sure you can find some founding fathers who shared our beliefs but not all of them. Many were deists who believed in a God but not THE God. Either way to pretend that this nation worshiped Jehovah is to turn a blind eye to the atrocities of slavery, the destruction of the American Indian, the sweat shops where children worked, as well as our imperialistic designs on other countries and what we have wrought over the centuries. This is not to say that this has not been the best country to live in or that no "good" was ever done. It is just to point out that sometimes there is some blood on the apple pie and we should not pretend to be something we are not. We certainly were never under covenant with God.



    The second thing we need to dispel is this notion that America is going to repent. McGuire has said recently that unless America repents of its immorality that we will see a cataclysmic event, such as earthquakes, tsunamis, or even world war three. Do they even understand the futility of what they ask?



    The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. - 1Corinthians 2: 14 (NIV)



    The people who Cahn and McGuire are demanding repentance from are walking in darkness! Satan has blinded them! The very things of God - such as sin and repentance - are utter foolishness to them! They do not need bombastic books threatening catastrophe - they need the Gospel. They do not need prophecy scholars who state the obvious - they need the church. They need the church to be the church again. You see beloved, it is the church that is in covenant with God. It is the church that must repent.



    if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. - 2Chronicles 7: 14 (NIV)



    If the people who are called by my name - Christians. I am also not sure what people like Cahn and McGuire are trying to accomplish. Delaying the second coming of Christ? God has his plans and they are in motion. There is nothing you or I can do about them except share the Gospel with as many people as possible. Why? Because that was what we are mandated to do according to Scripture.



    But here is the real damage done by the likes of Cahn and McGuire - they point us in the wrong direction. There is a reason why people gravitate towards books and predictions like this. That is because they blame someone else. What Jonathan Cahn and Paul McGuire do is they point at the world and say they are to blame for the coming judgment. Now, the people in the world have their own problems when Christ returns and it will not go well for them but it was the church that was supposed to do something about it. We were supposed to be the chosen vehicle to bring the lost the Gospel, not The Harbinger. When the world looks at the church what do they see? Prosperity hucksters ripping the elderly off? Hyper-grace preachers selling an empty suit for a savior? Men in thousand dollar suits telling them this is their best life now? Preachers railing against sin while leading sinful lifestyles? The Preachers of LA? The mansions of people claiming to represent a God who cares about widows and orphans?



    Or do they see Jonathan Cahn and Paul McGuire blaming the coming end of the world on them. The church needs to look inwards before it sets a course outwards. We need to stop blaming blind people for walking off cliffs and instead start examining what we are doing to prevent them from walking off the cliff to begin with. The lost do not need a prophecy scholar to tell them they are bringing about the end of the world and the church doesn't need them to tell us that the end is near. For their visions seem to be designed to sell books instead of coming from the mouth of the Lord.




    Rev. Anthony.
     
  2. Great post Anthony, I appreciated that. The Dylan song "With God on Our Side" comes to mind.
     
  3. Hey thanks!
     
  4.  
  5. Reply from Paul McGuire on "The False Narrative Of America's Repentance by Anthony Wade accuses Paul McGuire and Jonathan Cahn of being "blinded by Satan" and then lists the reasons why. I just happened to come upon your forum and joined in order to reply. First, Anthony Wade and others need to actually read my articles and books where I specifically do talk about the sins of slavery and the treatment of the Indians! In my latest book "A Prophecy of the Future of America" I devote entire chapters to these issues. In addition, the entire message of the book as well as my articles and messages are focused on the truth that it is the church, specifically in America that needs to repent. The whole thrust of Anthony's challenge to me is based on the fact that he is not actually taken the time to read or listen to my messsages, books and articles, many which are free on the net. In fact, everything he accuses me of believing or saying is the exact opposite of what I have actually written or said. Then his main accusation is that I am not calling the church to repent, when in fact the entire focus of my ministry and books is that it is the church that needs to repent! I don't mind being challenged and it never bothers me if people disagree, but please do your homework before you accuse, because what I have actually written is the total opposite of what you accuse me of. I await your response after you have read my material and not cherry picked sentences out of context.
     
  6. Initially, it is ironic that you accuse me of not reading you properly and then proceed to not read me properly. I never said Satan has blinded you and Mr. Cahn. I said the people you expect repentance from have been blinded by Satan, which is Biblically accurate. Please note that I also said that I did not wish to assume any ill will on your part. There was an overall point you seem to have missed. But give me some time to go back and review where your name came from the day I wrote this piece. Perhaps my source was poor. Thank you.
     
  7. Reply from Paul McGuire on "The False Narrative Of America's Repentance by Anthony Wade accuses Paul McGuire and Jonathan Cahn of the following in quotes below. This reply is from Paul McGuire as I cannot speak for Rabbi Cahn. There is a serious problem with Anthony Wade's critique of what I have said and that it is precisely the opposite of what I have actually said in writing with copyrights and dates to prove it. The mention of my book "A Prophecy of the Future of America" is not for the purpose of promotion, but serves as a written document with an actual copyright date which proves that Wade's criticism's are based on falsehoods! This is the reason I am responding. Starting on pg. 137 of the book I have a chapter title which says, "America, Slavery and the Slaughter of the Indians." This completely dispels his false accusations on this matter.

    Also, in my book the entire purpose of the book is to call the church and Christians to repent, NOT THE WORLD! This is summed up in the closing chapters starting on pg. 401 with a chapter entitled "Dr. Francis Schaeffer and the Proper Context of Experience in Relationship to the Final Authority of the Word of God," where I quote Schaeffer, whose family personally mentored me, of challenging the Evangelical culture of accomodating to the world. Then I specifically call the church and not the world to repentance. The entire purpose and focus of my ministry is to present the very message you falsely accuse of me of not doing, Yet, I have provided you with documented proof that your claims and accusations against me are false.

    I could care less about being criticized or challenged, but you have not even done minimal research about what I have actually written and said. You most likely took a sentence out of context from an article written to a secular audience, but if you read all the other articles free on the Internet you can plainly read my call is for the church to repent and not the world. Here are your quotes below:


    "But here is the real damage done by the likes of Cahn and McGuire - they point us in the wrong direction. There is a reason why people gravitate towards books and predictions like this. That is because they blame someone else. What Jonathan Cahn and Paul McGuire do is they point at the world and say they are to blame for the coming judgment."
    FALSE read my books and articles.

    "The second thing we need to dispel is this notion that America is going to repent. McGuire has said recently that unless America repents of its immorality that we will see a cataclysmic event, such as earthquakes, tsunamis, or even world war three. Do they even understand the futility of what they ask?"
    TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT BECAUSE I CLARIFY THAT IT IS THE AMERICAN CHURCH THAT NEEDS TO REPENT



    The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. - 1Corinthians 2: 14 (NIV)
    TRUE



    "The people who Cahn and McGuire are demanding repentance from are walking in darkness! Satan has blinded them! The very things of God - such as sin and repentance - are utter foolishness to them! They do not need bombastic books threatening catastrophe - they need the Gospel. They do not need prophecy scholars who state the obvious - they need the church. They need the church to be the church again. You see beloved, it is the church that is in covenant with God. It is the church that must repent."
    FALSE I WRITE BOOKS THAT MASS AUDIENCES OF SECULAR PEOPLE WANT TO READ AND THEY DO READ THEM IN LARGE NUMBERS. WHAT YOU CALL BOMBASTIC IS AN ATTEMPT TO DISPARAGE AN EFFECTIVE WRITING STYLE WHICH ACTUALLY REACHES LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TOTALLY ALIENATED BY EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY. I DO NOT WRITE DRY THEOLOGICAL STATEMENTS

    if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. - 2Chronicles 7: 14 (NIV)

    So, Anthony my challenge to you my brother is this, First get your facts right before you accuse. Secondly, besides falsely criticizing me, what have you effectively done to reach the lost?

    Your brother in Christ,

    Paul McGuire
     
  8. OK, found it. This was the source article. To be honest I had not heard of you until I received this in my morning email:

    http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/2013/November04/041.html

    In this article you are quoted as saying:

    In one scenario, the church and the nation turns back to God and experiences what world-renowned evangelist Billy Graham calls an end-times “great spiritual awakening.” In the other, America doesn’t repent of its immorality and experiences a “crisis of unprecedented proportions” – a complete economic collapse, a surprise nuclear or terrorist attack or a wave of devastating earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, solar flares and other cataclysmic disasters.

    In my piece I referred to you as saying:

    "McGuire has said recently that unless America repents of its immorality that we will see a cataclysmic event, such as earthquakes, tsunamis, or even world war three."
    The reference to WWIII is also in this article as coming from you. So unless you are saying you were quoted wrong in this initial piece about your upcoming book, it appears I quoted correctly and not out of context.

    Perhaps my error was in doing the combined piece. The paragraph about our history for example is about things Cahn has said. In fact, the only direct quote of you was the one I mentioned already. If you agree with me that saying this country was ever under covenant with God is inaccurate, that would be a big step in the right direction.

    The only other major point was about pointing the church in the wrong direction, which I never intimated was done purposefully. I do not think that at all. In fact, I probably agree with a lot of your positions on end times and where we are at. The larger point is that the church gravitates to books like the Harbinger because it lays the blame for everything, whether intended or not, at the feet of those walking in darkness. My overall point was we need to look inward as the Church. It seems you might agree with that, so I am unsure where our disagreement actually is.
     
  9. Reply from Paul McGuire on "The False Narrative Of America's Repentance by Anthony Wade accuses Paul McGuire and Jonathan Cahn of the following in quotes below. This reply is from Paul McGuire as I cannot speak for Rabbi Cahn. There is a serious problem with Anthony Wade's critique of what I have said and that it is precisely the opposite of what I have actually said in writing with copyrights and dates to prove it. The mention of my book "A Prophecy of the Future of America" is not for the purpose of promotion, but serves as a written document with an actual copyright date which proves that Wade's criticism's are based on falsehoods! This is the reason I am responding. Starting on pg. 137 of the book I have a chapter title which says, "America, Slavery and the Slaughter of the Indians." This completely dispels his false accusations on this matter.


    I re-read my article and i think it is clear that this section was referring to Cahn, who claimed we were once under covenant with God. Sorry if you thought I was speaking about you.


    Also, in my book the entire purpose of the book is to call the church and Christians to repent, NOT THE WORLD! This is summed up in the closing chapters starting on pg. 401 with a chapter entitled "Dr. Francis Schaeffer and the Proper Context of Experience in Relationship to the Final Authority of the Word of God," where I quote Schaeffer, whose family personally mentored me, of challenging the Evangelical culture of accomodating to the world. Then I specifically call the church and not the world to repentance. The entire purpose and focus of my ministry is to present the very message you falsely accuse of me of not doing, Yet, I have provided you with documented proof that your claims and accusations against me are false.

    Mr. McGuire, I have provided you with the source article. IT quotes you as saying that America needs to repent. YOU keep on bringing up your other books but I never wrote about your other books. I merely commented on your quote in the article. I am very happy to hear that perhaps that did not represent the entire picture. I am happy to hear that perhaps you should have been clearer when promoting your new book. But do not blame me for properly quoting you and then commenting on your quote. That seems a bit unfair


    . I could care less about being criticized or challenged, but you have not even done minimal research about what I have actually written and said. You most likely took a sentence out of context from an article written to a secular audience, but if you read all the other articles free on the Internet you can plainly read my call is for the church to repent and not the world. Here are your quotes below:



    Actually, the article was not to a secular audience. It was a prophecy watch newsletter I receive. I took the entire sentence nearly word for word and reprinted it. If you do not believe that America needs to repent then you should not have said it. Once again, I am very happy to hear that you agree with me that the church needs to repent.



    "But here is the real damage done by the likes of Cahn and McGuire - they point us in the wrong direction. There is a reason why people gravitate towards books and predictions like this. That is because they blame someone else. What Jonathan Cahn and Paul McGuire do is they point at the world and say they are to blame for the coming judgment."FALSE read my books and articles.



    In retrospect this paragraph could have been written better. I did not mean to infer intent. The larger point was about why we gravitate to books like these. Apologies.




    "The second thing we need to dispel is this notion that America is going to repent. McGuire has said recently that unless America repents of its immorality that we will see a cataclysmic event, such as earthquakes, tsunamis, or even world war three. Do they even understand the futility of what they ask?"TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT BECAUSE I CLARIFY THAT IT IS THE AMERICAN CHURCH THAT NEEDS TO REPENT




    I am sorry sir but not in the article i received and now have provided. If you had, I never would have included you in this piece at all.




    The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. - 1Corinthians 2: 14 (NIV)TRUE"The people who Cahn and McGuire are demanding repentance from are walking in darkness! Satan has blinded them! The very things of God - such as sin and repentance - are utter foolishness to them! They do not need bombastic books threatening catastrophe - they need the Gospel. They do not need prophecy scholars who state the obvious - they need the church. They need the church to be the church again. You see beloved, it is the church that is in covenant with God. It is the church that must repent."FALSE I WRITE BOOKS THAT MASS AUDIENCES OF SECULAR PEOPLE WANT TO READ AND THEY DO READ THEM IN LARGE NUMBERS. WHAT YOU CALL BOMBASTIC IS AN ATTEMPT TO DISPARAGE AN EFFECTIVE WRITING STYLE WHICH ACTUALLY REACHES LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TOTALLY ALIENATED BY EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY. I DO NOT WRITE DRY THEOLOGICAL STATEMENTS



    We keep having this disconnect. I did not write about your books. I wrote about your comments regarding America needing to repent or "ka-boom." I am not disparaging your writing style. I am not even disparaging your intent. The more I see your responses the more it appears to me that you gave an interview and for the sake of sounding dramatic, gave an incomplete answer to what you really believe. If so, fine but that does not change the fact that I quoted you correctly and commented on THAT correctly.




    if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. - 2Chronicles 7: 14 (NIV)So, Anthony my challenge to you my brother is this, First get your facts right before you accuse. Secondly, besides falsely criticizing me, what have you effectively done to reach the lost?



    Do you know me? Do you know my prayer life? Do you know my ministry work? Do you know what has happened to everyone who may read my material? Do you know of the outreaches I have been involved with? I think you would prefer to withdraw this question.



    As for this entire incident, I apologize. I did not intend for you to suffer any ill will. I saw a quote by you that has proven to be true. If you were unclear, I would have no way of knowing. When someone gives a lengthy interview promoting an upcoming book and I wish to comment on the interview I do not have to go read their entire library. Why? Because it is their responsibility to represent themselves and God correctly.



    That said, if i had to do it again, I would probably have separated the two individuals better and I certainly would have made that last paragraph clearer. Once again, apologies. I am glad that you found it were able to clarify your position. Your brother in Christ,

    Anthony
     
  10.  
  11. Anthony, my challenge to you was not meant as an accusation. It is obvious to me that you are a brother in the Lord who loves the Lord and His Word. I can understand your misunderstanding me due to the material you quoted. However, as you know now what my real emphasis is and that I do deal with important subjects like slavery, the Indians and a call to the church to repent. I assume from your response that you do not mind spirited debates, nor do I mind being challenged and held accountable. As I think you would agree, that it is possible to be in Christ and have these kind of important discussions. Thank you for your reply and I view you as a true brother in Christ and Co-Laborer. It is not necessary for brothers in the Lord to agree on everything that is not directly tied to God's inspired and inerrant Word. Iron sharpens iron and so we all grow when we speak the Truth in love, which I believe has been done among us here. Bless you my brother! Carry on in the Lord!

    Paul
     
  12. I agree wholeheartedly and again apologize for any angst my writing may have caused. Let us co-labor to bring as many to the cross as possible before our Lord returns.

    Anthony.
     
  13. Anthony,

    Amen! I sense as I believe you do, that Heaven is rejoicing over two strong-willed brothers in the Lord, spiritual warriors if you will, choosing to walk in true Christian love.

    Paul
     
    anthony wade likes this.
  14. I have to agree with Brother Anthony here. This concept of "America" needs to repent is unlearned and amateur at best. I question who does not need to repent and what is it that Makes up America?

    Who the heck needs to repent when we get statements like "America needs to repent?"

    I know pretty silly and if you don't like America, then please leave :)

    America has some of the strongest Churches in the world and not one time are believers responsible for what Nero did or Caesar did.
    My protection and covenant with God is not based on any Goverment and Certainly would not included any government to ever have had a covenant with God.

    Well, now God is going to judge and bla, bla, bla with Earthquakes........................ America is gonna be doomed!!!

    America Judged compared to who? Those God fearing people in Iran? That Jesus loving nation called Russia? Get a clue!!! Where are the most devastating disasters taking place? Not in America, but places Satan has a complete stronghold.

    God is also not the one sending the Earthquakes or other disasters.

    I am not pointing at anyone and only read Anthony piece, nor judge anyone, but if you have any "America is Doomed" philosophy, I would get ride of it.

    America needs to repent? That mean everyone at the white house get down in sackcloth and ashes? Who needs to repent exactly? I can tell you, I am not responsible for someone else sin and the Church is not responsible for it. We pray as we are told and we will lead peaceful lives as promised.

    We have more than enough strong believers here in America to be just fine.

    Blessings.
     
  15. #15 The Town Crier, Jan 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    Michael...You know why it is said frequently that America needs to repent? Because at one time over 90 % of the people living in this wretched country professed to be Christians..

    We still have approximately 75 percent -over 200 million people( a majority of the country) who CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN!!!!
    and a great majority of them ARE LIARS!!! For a people who claim Jesus Christ lives inside them, the arrogance and pride in this country is astounding. You appear to be on top of that list with the 'if you don't like it you can leave' quips. It's not God and...

    Irregardless of its status as a 'Christian nation' the majority of the populace claim to be Christians-so I guess that makes it a 'nation filled with confessing Christians. However, God sees it a little different. He calls this nation a Harlot. America is Babylon and most churches here are the synagogues of Satan- teaching lies. You sir worship a place that hates God and you defend it? Woe unto you who call evil good!

    I would be thrilled if tomorrow God's name was removed from everything that is in this place because at this point it is blasphemy and bearing false witness to His Holy namesake. It is more of a condemnation to this place to bear His name, all while putting out 90% of the worlds pornography and filling the world with its idolatrous Television, pro sports, Hollywood images, as well as perpetuating a highly covetous lifestyle. Yet people like you claim there is still salt in it? Where is it? Why is the nation so wicked if it is filled with salt and light? Give me a break- 'this people honors me with their lips but their hearts are far from me' ...The United States has turned grace into lasciviousness and will have its day in Gods courtroom. There is no disputing America is Babylon the Harlot...and there will not be a rapture of this nation before judgment day that is a fable!

    Jer 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.
    Jer 50:30 Therefore shall her young men fall in the streets, and all her men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the LORD.
    Jer 50:31 Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.


    Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
    Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

    Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    Click here to read 'The Falling away is Here.PDF

    TC
     
  16. The United States has turned Gods grace in to what? What are you calling the United States that have messed with God's Grace?
    Would that be the 78% that call themselves Christians? Is that the United States?
    I don't see many in Office now but a few the represent the right things of God, so you must be speaking about the people who live in the United States that call themselves Christians. Would that be correct?

    Just on assumption I know what your actually talking about:


    78% claim to be Christians or at least that is what they mark their religion as.

    Out of how many of those do you suppose are actually following the plan of God? Only God would know that number.

    Let's say 10% are actually following the plan of God. (Very low guess)

    I assume you have a good church and I have a good church. That is two of them we can count in. We currently ship over 100K a week in free material all over the World. We just built a Warehouse worth millions to ship even more free Word. Only God can supply that kind of money as we don't charge for anything.

    So, one Church with reaching over a billion downloads of free stuff and I don't know the number of CD material sent is a whole lot of folks.

    We just help pay for a few years ago a boat that travels the south Pacific and reaches people that never heard of Jesus. Just got a report that 34 gave their life to Jesus on some forsaken Island with just one boat dock and over 20 healed.

    This is not counting the Millions spent on disaster material and sending our own folks out over the years.

    that is just one Church who is just a very small part. Every body in a Church has a part.

    If just 10% of us Obey God and 2 put 10,000 to flight we are more than fine here in America. The Lord Jesus has a tighter grip on His Church than you think as He is the good Sheppard and he don't fail.
     
  17. #17 The Town Crier, Jan 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    Just because lots of 'churches do 'lots of 'good works' does not make them Christians. You are a Christian when you are converted and Christ moves in and takes over. Most people walking around today claiming to be Christians have the 'spirit of the world' and are therefore still 'of the world'.

    I don't care how many fliers or pamplets you send out( especially if they have false doctrine in them). Do you think God will consider those to be 'good deeds' in that day? Spreading false doctrine about His Holy Word? Do you think that those 34 people on that island truly gave their lives to Christ? Did they immediately begin to produce fruit? Has there been a genuine conversion? Did they forsake their idolatry and fornication because Christ took over?Making a proclamation with your mouth does not make you a believer.
    As Paul said- you travel land and sea to proselytize and make them two fold more the child of Hell than yourself...

    Get over your 'churches' righteous works- they are filth rags before God. If not done by His grace( the Power of the Holy Spirit) they are not of Him. Just so you know what lasciviousness is- it is a license to live like the world. to live in pleasure and luxury, wanton desires, etc- the epitome of most Americans( of whom 78% according to you are Christian)

    Jesus said pull out the beam in your own eye before telling someone they have a splinter in theirs. For Americans to be telling others to 'repent and believe the gospel' is hypocrisy. To believe means to do. That is called faith. American Churches by and large are dead spiritually. The Holy Spirit is not running things, a bunch of carnal minded 'divinity' degree wielding false teachers are..and they are leading the rest of the blind right into the ditch!!


    You are correct though Jesus does have a very tight grip on His church- His church is not a building- it is the people all over the world who are part of the body. And millions of them are being killed as we speak for the name of God- do not come to me with your holier than thou attitude that your church is some great organization. Go set down your lives and sell all your worldly crap and go give it to the poor then you might get a glimpse of the Kingdom...You live in Babylon and if you live that lifestyle, you are a Babylonian...

    TC
     
  18. This is sort of disturbing.

    So your saying that if you preach the Word, make a alter call then you would not believe anyone got saved if in 5 minutes they did not produce some works to prove it to you? Even though they confessed with their mouth the Lord Jesus right before you they could possibly still not be saved.

    Very strange position I have never heard of.

    Anything your church does such as give food, or free learning material is just filthy rags before God. So you take the scripture and twist it saying any work even if God called that church to do it. Our own works is as filthy rags, our plan, doing the will of God is not filthy Works as you say.

    I assume you do Nothing for anyone then because doing anything for the Lord must be filthy rags in your book.

    Your a very strange person and twist scriptures in a very confusing way. I wish you would not have typed all that because I am trying to think better of you, and you make that a challenge.
     
  19. Michael- I am trying to tell you it isn't because of works that you get there...and many are doing work because they don't understand grace.. On that day they are going to say 'Lord Lord' and He is going to reject them because they were never born again. That is why He does not know them. People to day thank claim to be Christians have never been born again. There was never any transformation that took place in their lives nor anything that gives real evidence of it. To make a confession with your mouth does not make you born again. Can a person make an honest profession of belief then die five minutes later and be given eternal life on judgment day? Sure they can but those who have life yet to live will manifest the supernatural effect of grace in their changed life. If there is no manifestation of grace in them, there is no salvation. Can't have a living faith without it...

    The whole point is many think they are born again and they are not. They are going to find that out in a painful way because of they will not listen. I don't twist scriptures, they are what they are and they do not change...Those who do not want to obey them twist them.

    TC
     
  20. OK, so your don't believe in Once saved always saved (OSAS) or the election grace. I get that, and fine with me. I just had an issue of thinking that someone would come to the alter to give their life to the Lord and you telling them it's not good enough they have to have it proved out first.

    Grace only comes for Being willing and obedient to do the plan of God. There would be no reason to have grace (ability) if your not interested in the Kingdom. Many do just show up to church to warm a seat, but don't apply anything they heard when they get home. That would be like the guy that built his house on the sand after he heard, then underneath that Jesus tells them he knew them not.

    I see your point.

    I don't see works as in sending free CD's all over the world as the reward, I see the reward when you and I do everything God asked us to do, and that can include sending out material. I never suggested that our own good works got us any where but I am very much for doing what your called to do as part of the body.
    We are created to do God's will, not our own.

    For me personally I got saved and I spent hours a day reading the Word, I wanted to know all I could get my hands on. I am not sure how it is for others but it says all things become new, so everything should be new and that means lots of learning God's system and not the World Babylon system.

    However, if the Lord tells you to get a 20 million dollar jet to get to all your speaking appointments, then you best get faith for a jet. I take God's plans for us very seriously. I think I would like you to not generalize so much and give folks some breathing room. It takes some a bit to get it.

    So, I am not sure what your issue is. The giving your life to the Lord Jesus part (Are they taught what that actually means enough before they do make Jesus Lord) or is it the after part where people are not taught properly. Could be both?

    I don't know how you or I could even make much a difference in this because bad places people call church are only there because it's what they want to hear.

    Blessings.

    Michael.
     

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