Curiosity About The Bible's Supposed Divinity

I've noticed two different beliefs; belief that everyone who is baptized gets the HS and the belief that not everyone who is baptized gets the HS. You believe the latter. Why do you think people come to believe the opposite?
Did you not read the verse that I posted?


(Acts 8:14-17) “When theapostlesinJerusalemheard thatSamariahad accepted the word of God, they sent Peter andJohnto them,and they went down there and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit,for as yet he

had not come down on any of them: they had only been baptised in the name of theLord Jesus.Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.”


Also how many people do you know that actually walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?


How many people do you know that actually hear the Holy Spirit talk to them. Do you know anyone that is actually being taught by the Holy Spirit?
 
Did you not read the verse that I posted?


(Acts 8:14-17) “When theapostlesinJerusalemheard thatSamariahad accepted the word of God, they sent Peter andJohnto them,and they went down there and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit,for as yet he

had not come down on any of them: they had only been baptised in the name of theLord Jesus.Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.”


Also how many people do you know that actually walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?


How many people do you know that actually hear the Holy Spirit talk to them. Do you know anyone that is actually being taught by the Holy Spirit?
yes, I read the verse you posted.

Did you read my question? I asked why you think people come to believe that the HS comes to everyone who is baptized. Your reply didn't address my question.

As for your questions, I don't know anyone of the sort because I don't believe in the Holy Spirit's existence.
 
Is anyone here not using the forum for learning?

The purpose of this forum is to provide Christians the opportunity to fellowship and discuss various topics of common interest, which is best laid out in the forum's mission statement:

The Christian Forum Site exists for the following reasons:
1. To provide a friendly place for believers to discuss Biblical, theological and social issues in a rational manner.
2. To promote and support mutual spiritual growth and biblical learning among forum Users.
3. To provide a place of fellowship and prayer for believers.
4. But, most importantly to Glorify our Savior, Jesus Christ.

What is not included in the above mission statement is to provide a place where unbelievers can enter and challenge the validity of the Christian faith, which is what you appear to be doing. There are forums on the internet that exist for this purpose, but this is not one of them.

As for your questions, I don't know anyone of the sort because I don't believe in the Holy Spirit's existence.

And this, I think, was Jeff's point: when you signed up for an account on this site, you agreed that the forum's statement of faith was in line with your own:

Statement of Faith
1) The Holy Scriptures, in it's original form, is the inerrant Word of God.
2) There is only one God who reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3) We are separated from God due to sin.
4) God's Son, Jesus Christ, was born of the virgin Mary, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again on the third day.
5) We can only be saved by repenting of sin, and accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior by faith as stated in John 3:16. (The faith mentioned here will produce actions)
6)This salvation is provided by the grace of God. We cannot be saved through our own efforts, our works or by the intervention of man on our behalf.

Clearly the forum's Statement of Faith does not match your own since, by your own admission, you do not believe in the Holy Spirit and it appears you also do not believe the Holy Scriptures to be inerrant. Were you being dishonest when you created your account? I'm curious, before anyone else (or myself, for that matter) spends time drafting thoughtful answers to your questions, what exactly is your purpose for being here? Do you feel drawn to come here in an attempt to sort out your disbelief, or are you a dug-in atheist looking for a debate?
 

The purpose of this forum is to provide Christians the opportunity to fellowship and discuss various topics of common interest, which is best laid out in the forum's mission statement:

I read the Mission Statement and rules of the site before I joined. Nothing I read gave me the impression that this was exclusively for Christians, but for anyone who was interested in learning.

What is not included in the above mission statement is to provide a place where unbelievers can enter and challenge the validity of the Christian faith, which is what you appear to be doing.

My questions are for the purpose of learning about what individuals believe, and the reasoning behind their beliefs. Of course, I disagree with people. It happens. "Challenge" is an interesting word for what I am doing. I've given reasons why I don't believe and have asked for reasons from others in order to have a civil conversation. I haven't been rude to anyone to my knowledge. If one feels it's a "challenge" to give me those reasons, that has more to do with the individuals who hold those beliefs than it does with me disagreeing. It's really a shame if that offends anyone.

Were you being dishonest when you created your account? I'm curious, before anyone else (or myself, for that matter) spends time drafting thoughtful answers to your questions, what exactly is your purpose for being here? Do you feel drawn to come here in an attempt to sort out your disbelief, or are you a dug-in atheist looking for a debate?

I understand why you may be suspicious of my intent. I'll explain.

As I've said above, I didn't get the impression that this was exclusively a site for only Christians. I was under the impression that civil conversation and disagreement would be maturely accepted. I want to learn more about what people believe and why they believe it even in the face of apparent logical inconsistencies. I realize this may seem offensive to people, but it's nothing personal against anyone. That's the view I bring to the table.

Of course, when you have people who disagree, debates are inevitable. Nothing wrong with that. That's just the way things go, unless you're telling me that everyone here agrees on everything.
Hopefully that cleared things up for you.
 
My questions are for the purpose of learning about what individuals believe, and the reasoning behind their beliefs. Of course, I disagree with people. It happens. "Challenge" is an interesting word for what I am doing. I've given reasons why I don't believe and have asked for reasons from others in order to have a civil conversation. I haven't been rude to anyone to my knowledge. If one feels it's a "challenge" to give me those reasons, that has more to do with the individuals who hold those beliefs than it does with me disagreeing. It's really a shame if that offends anyone.

Let's not mince words. You are challenging member's beliefs. You have said multiple things as evidence to this statement but is best exemplified in one of your responses from the "Is Our Lord Real? I Want Him To But I Have Doubt" thread:

Your doubt is good. You don't wanna fall into a gullible trap of believing things simply because you have an emotional experience. That feeling is likely a surge of dopamine. With every religious claim you hear, evaluate it using reason. Be intellectually honest and make decisions about what you believe and what you reject based on that.

I am not claiming that you have been rude or disrespectful. But my perception is that you are heckling members by masquerading (poorly) as a "seeker" in the pews. Lots of civil conversation and disagreement can be found here on this forum but the end state is to come to a right knowledge of God, not to prove His existence in the first place. God's existence is already assumed by virtue of joining this forum, hence, the statement of faith.

Your investigation into "what people believe and why they believe it" can be best accomplished by not casting seeds of doubt among people struggling with their faith. But since I'm not the person in charge here, I'll leave it up to those who are whether they will enforce the standards.
 
Let's not mince words. You are challenging member's beliefs.

I admit to having communicated poorly. I didn't say I wasn't challenging people's beliefs. My intent wasn't to mince words. The the word "challenge" has negative connotations, and I'm highlighting that any negativity towards having someones beliefs challenged is the believer's issue, not the challenger's. Obviously, the believer has to look at their reasons themselves and decide what they want to believe. All the challenger did was bring the question into mind.


I am not claiming that you have been rude or disrespectful. But my perception is that you are heckling members by masquerading (poorly) as a "seeker" in the pews. Lots of civil conversation and disagreement can be found here on this forum but the end state is to come to a right knowledge of God, not to prove His existence in the first place. God's existence is already assumed by virtue of joining this forum, hence, the statement of faith.

If someone doesn't want to answer a question I ask about their reasoning behind their beliefs, that's their prerogative. As for your perception, it's flawed. But I can understand why you would get that perception.

Your investigation into "what people believe and why they believe it" can be best accomplished by not casting seeds of doubt among people struggling with their faith. But since I'm not the person in charge here, I'll leave it up to those who are whether they will enforce the standards.

This goes back to the issue of people feeling negativity towards their beliefs being challenge. If simply asking someone a question is enough to make them weak, then they have some contemplating to do. I'm not concerned with whether I "cast seeds of doubt" on people's faith. I'm only concerned with people's reasoning behind their beliefs, and I expected Christians to not have too much of a problem with this (1 Peter 3:15). If they feel doubt, it's their responsibility to investigate further into their doubt. It's not my responsibility to handle their faith with kid gloves.
 
There are many reasons why I believe the Bible is of divine origin. For one, it describes a real, knowable God (not just an imaginary character) who has revealed Himself to me in various ways that match how He is described in the Bible. He answers my prayers - not everyone, but much more than can be explained by chance (http://dtjsoft.com/practical-evidence-of-gods-existance/). I also know others who have had many amazing answers to prayer. With these answers, I find God is totally true to His character and His promises, so that I am able to rely on Him fully. Other more well-known people have found God to be completely reliable, such as George Muller and Hudson Taylor. Check them out.

Another reason why I believe the Bible is of divine origin is that it contains prophecies that have been completely fulfilled, including in the last 100 years. What other book predicted that the people of an ancient nation would be dispersed throughout the world, and then brought back together into a nation again after thousands of years (http://home.dtjsoft.com/apologetics-the-return-of-israel/)? These are not vague prophecies either but very specific.

The biggest clincher for me believing the Bible is the reality of the new life I have in Christ and the internal witness of the Holy Spirit - just as the Bible said. But these are things you can only experience after you are saved.
 
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, whether you're saying that I'm using a circular argument or not. Can you clarify please?

You are assuming a circular argument of how other people believes:

To understand the bible, one needs divine guidance because the bible says so….. yes, that is circular....

As mentioned, your OP shows signs to have preconceived ideas of how other people have basis of their belief.
 
There are many reasons why I believe the Bible is of divine origin. For one, it describes a real, knowable God (not just an imaginary character) who has revealed Himself to me in various ways that match how He is described in the Bible. He answers my prayers - not everyone, but much more than can be explained by chance (http://dtjsoft.com/practical-evidence-of-gods-existance/). I also know others who have had many amazing answers to prayer. With these answers, I find God is totally true to His character and His promises, so that I am able to rely on Him fully. Other more well-known people have found God to be completely reliable, such as George Muller and Hudson Taylor. Check them out.

Another reason why I believe the Bible is of divine origin is that it contains prophecies that have been completely fulfilled, including in the last 100 years. What other book predicted that the people of an ancient nation would be dispersed throughout the world, and then brought back together into a nation again after thousands of years (http://home.dtjsoft.com/apologetics-the-return-of-israel/)? These are not vague prophecies either but very specific.

The biggest clincher for me believing the Bible is the reality of the new life I have in Christ and the internal witness of the Holy Spirit - just as the Bible said. But these are things you can only experience after you are saved.

I appreciate you answering Fandingman.

I've heard these reasons before. The most intriguing to me is the one about prophecy. I haven't done much looking into these particular prophesies. The ones I've seen have been vague descriptions of events that people later seem to interpret as prophecy after a seemingly prophecy fulfilling event. Also, even if those specific claims where true prophecy, it doesn't provide strong enough reason to conclude the WHOLE Bible's divinity or it's divinity at all.

I appreciate you giving me those links and not just writing me off or attacking me simply because I disagree with you. I'll take a look at those links when I get some time.
 
You are assuming a circular argument of how other people believes:

To understand the bible, one needs divine guidance because the bible says so….. yes, that is circular....

As mentioned, your OP shows signs to have preconceived ideas of how other people have basis of their belief.

I pointed out a circular argument in a specific person's posting of his ideas, not everyone's ideas. I didn't assume anything. I asked him for an explanation and his explanation was clearly a circular argument. However, to be sure, I asked him to clarify. I still saw the circular argument. Those were that person's ideas, not mine.

As mentioned, your OP shows signs to have preconceived ideas of how other people have basis of their belief.
Everyone has preconceived ideas of things technically. However, I suspect you are overestimating the amount of preconceived ideas I have and/or reading into my OP what's not there and/or misunderstanding my OP. I simply stated facts, told people to research for themselves just in case they doubt those facts, and asked for a reason for belief.
 
To be honest. Yes. We have had visitors with agenda. We try our best to help them out. If the discussions turn out into fruitless debates, we offer to help them in private but not in the forums.
That's great that you are willing to help people. I would hope the label of "fruitless debates" isn't arbitrarily attached to discussions where the OP was simply trying to learn, or where others have simply gotten offended at the OP for not holding their beliefs.
 
I pointed out a circular argument in a specific person's posting of his ideas, not everyone's ideas. I didn't assume anything. I asked him for an explanation and his explanation was clearly a circular argument. However, to be sure, I asked him to clarify. I still saw the circular argument. Those were that person's ideas, not mine.

You mean Bro. Mike post/ explanation? It was not! Not at all circular!
Precisely what am pointing at what that phrase give signals in the OP..... and the effect eventually shown in discussion….

You did assume his premise …

I'm assuming you mean that having a Bible based belief in what your god has done for you is required in order to get the Holy Spirit, correct? If so, then you do need the Bible (not necessarily the physical book in front of you) in order to have a Bible based belief. And according to you, a Bible based belief of what your god has done is needed in order to get the Holy Spirit, and you need the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible. So, it's a circular argument, which begs the question of why we should believe what the Bible says this god has done for us. That is where your faith comes in though, since that question doesn't seem to be answerable by any demonstrable means.
 
You mean Bro. Mike post/ explanation? It was not! Not at all circular!
Precisely what am pointing at what that phrase give signals in the OP..... and the effect eventually shown in discussion….

You did assume his premise …
Faith that Jesus Christ is one’s savior/God comes from hearing the Word of God. The written Word of God/bible gives one confirmation of what one has heard.


One never needs to ever read the bible to receive the Holy Spirit. And after one receives the Holy Spirit one never needs to ever read the bible. The Holy Spirit will teach one to come to know God.


(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”



(Acts 10:44-48) “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came onall who heard the message.The circumcised believers who had come with Peterwere astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured outeven on Gentiles.For they heard them speaking in tonguesand praising God.

Then Peter said,“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.”
 
Under perfect circumstances what Giver alludes to would be true.
The problem is that the vast majority of professed Christians are functionally deaf as far as the Holy Spirit goes.
Which is why there is so much confusion in doctrine among believers.
Without the Bible, the vast majority of Christians would have no guide at all and would wander farther
into heresy and error than many already have.

On a side note: Many may have noticed over the years that, very often, those who make the loudest claims as to
being guided by the Holy Spirit are also the most heretical.
 
I appreciate you answering Fandingman.

I've heard these reasons before. The most intriguing to me is the one about prophecy. I haven't done much looking into these particular prophesies. The ones I've seen have been vague descriptions of events that people later seem to interpret as prophecy after a seemingly prophecy fulfilling event. Also, even if those specific claims where true prophecy, it doesn't provide strong enough reason to conclude the WHOLE Bible's divinity or it's divinity at all.

Biblical prophecy never happened after the event, although some people theorize that because they can't come up with any other explanation. Whenever something bad happened to Israel for example, God didn't say afterwards, "Oh, and by the way, this is because you refused to listen to me." He always warned them first... giving them plenty of time to come back to Him. (The same thing holds true today about the prophecies of coming judgment - Acts 17:30-31.)

The thing about Biblical prophecy is that it gives details and names names. For example, in Ezekiel 37, there is a prophecy about a bunch of bones coming together in a valley and then they come to life. If the prophecy ended with that, it would be very vague and open to interpretation. But in verses 11 to 14, God gives the explanation in detail. He says He will bring the whole people of Israel (not just one tribe) back together again. This is a prophecy that is still in the midst of fulfillment. It has been fulfilled up to verse 8 for the people have come together as a nation, but the Spirit hasn't given them life yet.

Another big area of prophecy fulfillment is the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah and how they were fulfilled in Jesus. Prophecies that indicated where He would be born, when He would live, etc. Isaiah 53 is one of the biggest descriptions of Jesus' purpose, written hundreds of years before His birth. (There are carbon dated copies of Isaiah dated over 100 years before Jesus was born.) You can even consider this from a 'hostile source', i.e. it is Jewish scripture - not written by Christians.
 
Under perfect circumstances what Giver alludes to would be true.
The problem is that the vast majority of professed Christians are functionally deaf as far as the Holy Spirit goes.
Which is why there is so much confusion in doctrine among believers.
Without the Bible, the vast majority of Christians would have no guide at all and would wander farther
into heresy and error than many already have.

On a side note: Many may have noticed over the years that, very often, those who make the loudest claims as to
being guided by the Holy Spirit are also the most heretical.
Heretical, yes but, according to what denominations’ understanding of the bible?


Jesus told me that we were not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason. That is what the bible says, and it seems that is heretical to most denominations.


Jesus/Holy Spirit taught me that a Christian would not sin. That is also what scripture says. But that is heretical to most Christian denominations.


So again who determines what is heretical?
 
Heretical, yes but, according to what denominations’ understanding of the bible?

That's the whole point. If two groups disagree, one or both of them is wrong.


Jesus told me that we were not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason. That is what the bible says, and it seems that is heretical to most denominations.

That was not Jesus talking. Jesus Himself beat the snot out of the money changers and told His apostles " if you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".


Jesus/Holy Spirit taught me that a Christian would not sin. That is also what scripture says. But that is heretical to most Christian denominations.

You are in error in this. Scripture plainly states that anyone who claims they do not sin is in error.


So again who determines what is heretical?
You do apparently. Though again, I don't buy a word of it.
 
Heretical, yes but, according to what denominations’ understanding of the bible?

That's the whole point. If two groups disagree, one or both of them is wrong.


Jesus told me that we were not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason. That is what the bible says, and it seems that is heretical to most denominations.

That was not Jesus talking. Jesus Himself beat the snot out of the money changers and told His apostles " if you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".


Jesus/Holy Spirit taught me that a Christian would not sin. That is also what scripture says. But that is heretical to most Christian denominations.

You are in error in this. Scripture plainly states that anyone who claims they do not sin is in error.


So again who determines what is heretical?
You do apparently. Though again, I don't buy a word of it.
You added words to scripture. Did Jesus use the whip on the animals or people? Does scripture say? Also God is the Law Giver, and the Law Enforcer.


When Jesus told the disciples to buy swords did he say they were to use against people? Jesus telling them two swords was enough should have let you see that he was not to be taken literally, and most theologians don’t in this verse.


Here is what Jesus said about how to treat one’s enemies.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”


(Matthew 5:38-48) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well, if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him. Give to anyone who asks, and if anyone wants to borrow, do not turn away. You have learnt how it was said: you must love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in heaven, for he causes his sun to rise on bad men as well as good, and his rain to fall on honest and dishonest men alike. For if you love those who love you, what right have you to claim any credit? Even the tax collectors do as much, do they not? And it you save your greetings for your brothers, are you doing anything exceptional? Even pagans do as much, do the not? You must therefore be perfect just as you heavenly Father is perfect.


Now for you out of context statement about sin, read what scripture truly says.


Your use of (1 John 1:8-10) tells me you have very little understanding of what John was saying. It also is calling John a liar.


When Jesus told the apostles that they were clean, do you believe that they would have been liars if they then said they were sin free?


“If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.”


Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not?


John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.


(1 John 1: 8-10)If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”


If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?


John later says: New American Bible

(1 John 3-10) “Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure. Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him. Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.”



By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.


(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.


Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.


(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”


(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
 
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