Creation of the Universe

Discussion in 'Answers' started by JagoKakto, Dec 23, 2008.

  1. Creation of the Universe

    Serious question. Please do your best to explain this to me.

    How many members of this Christian forum have ever created a universe? And I'm not talking a metaphorical universe that you build with a loved one, or any other way you could possibly slant this. I'm talking about an actual universe, like the one in which we live. One with living, breathing, evolving organisms; one with protons, neutrons, electrons, planets, stars, atoms, elements, chemicals, asteroids and water. How many times have you created such a universe, that is expanding at the speed of light as we speak--all of which examples have been proven and backed by science, regardless of particular beliefs you may have.

    Assuming the answer is "None of you" (let me know if that's not the case), then how many members of this Christian forum know how to create a universe, and you are simply reluctant to do so, for whatever reason? How many people here could create a working, functional universe at all like the one in which we live, if so driven or asked?

    I'll assume the answer to the second question is similarly "None of you." In fact, no one on Earth knows how to create a universe, and no one on Earth--including Jesus--ever has, unless you declare that Jesus is simply God and that God created the universe. Let's set aside Jesus, however. No human on earth has ever been able to understand what God could possibly have "thought" in creating the universe.

    My point is thus: the universe, with its infinite complexity, would require an infinitely more complex being to create it, if creation is indeed how it came into play. The preservation of the universe, which is MUCH MUCH LARGER THAN OUR SOLAR SYSTEM is thus imperative over the success of a single race--homosapien--on a single planet--Earth. God, therefore, would want its creation to last, but the creation is not Earth or humans: the creation is the universe, in which humans are so small a part that they are essentially negligible. Humans, in essence, are able to do whatever they want, as long as in the long run they ultimately fit God's "plan" for the universe and for Earth as a planet in general, kept in mind that the plan may not be Earth's salvation and may instead be that Earth needs to be destroyed. God, in that case, would not be looking out for us.

    In fact, unless you know how to create a universe, then you have no idea what goes in to managing one, and you cannot begin to comprehend the complexity involved in a being that would be able to do so. Describing this being with human attributes--love, compassion, jealousy, anger, sadness, and even intelligent--would not be accurate, or even beneficial. This thing could act however it wants, and would clearly not care about whether we want it to or not. We can't describe anything more complex than us, partially because we've yet to come into contact with anything more complex than human beings, but more so because simple logic assumes that the being more complex/intelligent would have access to something that the less intelligent being would not have access to. If we knew what that was, we'd be able to get it, and use it, and would no longer be inferior. We do not understand what is greater than us, and it would be arrogant to assume we are the alphas in the universe. And as for God, if It created the universe, then anything we encounter in this universe, even those beings more complex than us, was created by God, and thus not as complex as God. So if we can't describe the beings more complex than us within our universe, what makes you think you can describe the beings beyond this universe that created those complex beings in the first place?

    The response is typically "Scripture says so, and those guys were divinely inspired." In other words, "God told us what he's like." First of all, the scriptures are so far from being divinely inspired, as admitted, on several articles, by the Catholic Church itself. But even assuming they were divinely inspired, the mere fact that God told us he is loving, compassionate, intelligent, etc. does not indicate that it is, since telling us it is loving and worthy of worship could indeed be part of a grand scheme in which humans come into contact with a higher, more intelligent race that ultimately destroys us because we put too much faith in God and we thought he'd save us from destruction. This could be tantamount to a joke to God, or an experiment, or a game. Our universe could be the latest in a long line of games our "God" is playing with other gods, or beings of its race, and it might not be the last. Thus, God's intentions are entirely unknown, entirely suspect, and entirely untrustworthy.

    Thus, there is no reason to believe God has human attributes, and it is very arrogant to assume he is like us. Just because we can make decisions beyond "To exist / To not exist," like most of our "subordinate" brethren on this planet, does not mean we are the greatest beings in the universe, directly modeled after God. In fact, it is ridiculous to assume humans are even the most perfect beings on this planet, since there are countless creatures that live longer than us (tortoises, turkey buzzards, trees, and even some swans), and there are countless diseases only affecting humans right now, including but not limited to the metaphorical disease of arrogance. If there is a God, there is simply no way he is the Christian "grandfather" God (not just in appearance, but also in His loving, caring demeanor); there is no way we can understand its intentions or its beliefs or its IQ level; and there is no justifiable reason, other than Pascal's Wager, to worship such a "deity." And yes, in this case, Pascal would have it spot on: we would be wiser to worship a being that is obsessed with ego, even if it knows we aren't sincere, than to ignore it or hate it.

    I am curious to see what your responses to this are.
  2. Is it not equally arrogant to presume that one knows enough to dismiss the notion of a God Who created Man specifically for relationship with Him? And this based on the logic of a creature unable to understand that which is more complex than himself? We ourselves, as complex and, relatively speaking, vast as we are have not only the ability, but the interest, focus, and desire to manipulate individual atoms. They are, in fact, to some, a source of endless fascination. Do we have enough information to logically conclude that a being great enough to have created the universe could hardly be bothered with so small (physically speaking) a part of it? Or is that conclusion itself an anthropomorphic projection?

    I don't see any arrogance, either, in believing that there is a correlation between human attributes and divine ones. If we are created in His image, there is certainly going to be some attributes shared in kind, if not in magnitude. If you toss out any possibility of God communicating to His creation, it is possible we are mistaken, but it hardly follows that we are arrogantly presumptuous. And if we are created in the image of the One who created all things, it doesn't seem arrogant to me that we would be the pinnacle of creation and the focus of divine attention. I find it a rather humbling thought, myself.

    It is certainly possible that God is playing a divine game or joke. So? The only way to "win" in such a case is to learn the game and play it for all you're worth. Refusing to play gains you nothing, and it is arrogant to assume, in such a case, that you won't be "dealt in" anyway, or that the joke won't be played on you anyway. But truthfully, I think you are projecting your own cynicism, suspicion, pessimism, and fear on God.
  3. Of course God created the Universe. Were do you think it came from!:p
    Of course a Christian will refer to the scriptures. What would you expect.
    We were created in His image, we are special because He loves us- those are taken for granted if one follows Christ.
    I certainly do not have to know how to create the universe as God ahs already done that for me.
    Do I expect you to understand that? Not really for your spiritual eyes have not been opened.
    Of course some ascribe to the two brains exploding from nothingness or the big bang that came from nothing but one would have to be a real religious zealot to believe that.:D
  4. So contrary to your views on your other thread we do have a choice in what we do.:D
  5. Right back at you.:D
  6. [This post has been edited]

    I'd also like to know how many people prescribe to the idea of "God's plan," in which God has a specific plan for all of us.
  7. Hi. I agree with you on some points, like the fact that the universe was created, and that such a creator is really beyond our understanding. But you're making some presuppositions which have dictated your reasoning. One is that because the universe is much greater than man, the existence and continuation of the universe is superior to that of man. This presupposition is what you seem to have based your analysis of the (possible) character of the creator on. In reality a creator can order any aspect of the creation as superior to any other.

    Another presupposition is that the Bible is not (and cannot be) devinely inspired. I'm not sure what you base this on, but I'd disregard what the Catholic or any other church says if it can't be supported by personal experience.

    Your conclusion seems to be based on the premise that if the Bible was in fact devinely inspired, then what the creator tells us of Himself cannot be trusted. This is self contradictory, since the Bible tells us that the creator is truth, and is in fact the source of all truth.

    I suggest you read the Bible with an open mind, which is that the Bible may or may not be, absolutely true, you will decide after you've finished it. It would also be helpful if you speak to the creator and ask Him if, if He is in fact the being revealed in the Bible, then could he help you understand the truth. If you haven't done, or can't do, this, then you need to leave the Christian understanding of the creator out of your deliberations.:)
  8. Hi there,

    Before I became a Christian I had the same questions as you. I could not understand. After I became a Christian, God started changing me and it began to make sense. Well, actually before I became a Christian. I think the fact that you are engaged in these questions is God calling you. You just need to make the move and and ask for more, ask God to understand. There can be no harm in it, right? I mean, if none of it's true, then life goes on. If it is true, you'll understand. The Bible will start to make sense. You will begin to accept God's authority and Christ's supremacy. It'll just happen, it's magical.

    I was curious about churches, like you mentioned in another post, and I went to a few to explore. I sat down one Sunday in the Alliance Church in my area, and I just bawled. I was in the back row trying to hide, but I just could not hold back the tears. A couple weeks later, there was a counselor, the Pastor, and his wife, up at the front after service, and they asked if anyone had recently gven themselves to Christ, and if so they were available up front for prayer. I went up bawling so hard I could not even tell my name. I actually hadn't actually given myself yet, but I think God knew that I had, soon. :D That'll make sense once you do it. The counselor prayed with me/for me, and it all began. I opened the Bible and I found it so engaging. It was a pleasurable experience to read. Not just words and names and begats, but it really did come to life. Now when I read the Bible, I get involved in it. I listen to it. I heal from it. I speaks to me and it is one of my most favorite things to do. I avoid it quite often because it is such an experience and changes me every time, that I get tired out. So I avoid it sometime, but I love it.

    You have a lot of questions and you are asking people for help. Go to a church (I go to the Alliance Church and love it) and talk to God. Talk to pastor. Start praying to God. You can do that on your own. Ask for guidance from God and you will be guided. We can't give you the understanding you are looking for, only God can.
  9. Yago,

    I forgot to respond to the God being loving and compassionate because he said so bit......

    Again, before I was Christian I did not understand. But after becoming a Christian I understood that I have a RELATIONSHIP with God. This is how I know those things to be true. First of all, He did say so, and also because I EXPERIENCE it. I FEEL God. It can't be explained except through your own experience. It is the most beautiful love imaginable. Actually, it's beyond the human imagination. God IS loving. God IS compassionate. I TRUST this because this is how God is with me in my relationship with Him. His compassionate is endless and constant. He is always there, and ready.

    I urge you to try it. I urge you to let it begin for you. You will not regret it. And you will find all the answers you are looking for. You are seeking.... now just start giving your questions to the right one - talk to God, ask for Jesus. :)

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