1. Hello Guest! You are browsing the forums as a guest; you will have limited permissions as a guest so we advise registering to enjoy the forums fully. Remember: we are a Christian ONLY site - any user who is not Christian will not be approved. Blessings, Christian Forum Site Staff
    Dismiss Notice

Corrupt Leaders = Proof Of Free Will

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by KingJ, Mar 19, 2014.

  1. Corrupt leaders = Proof of free will?

    Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers (governing authorities). For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    That verse is pretty clear. Now let's use some lateral thought.

    - Would God ever ordain someone to a position of leadership if He didn't think he / she was fit for it?
    - Would God ever give a leader power if He didn't trust them with it?

    If your answer is YES to the above, you believe God is evil and makes mistakes. Fact is, God is good Psalm 136:1 and does not make mistakes (look at yourself in the mirror).

    So, the classic question arises....'Why in the universe would God give Lucifer so much power and authority in heaven?' He had clearly gained God's trust more then any other angel.

    Lucifer clearly had free will. The power to honour / respect or dishonour / shame God was in his hands.

    Two blurry matters are now as clear as daylight.

    1. Saying, corrupt leaders is God's doing is on par with blaming God for the actions of the devil.
    2. Saying God does not select leaders and give them power based on merit and trust, is to call God evil and dumb.

    Conclusion: If you can figure out the reason for God not re-enlisting Lucy as His covering cherub, you will grasp that all leaders who God has trusted, have free will to shame Him.

    Eze 12:14-17 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.
     
  2. God hardened pharaoh's heart. No evil in that.
     
  3. A simple question.. To get your view on this.. Did God ordain Saul as king knowing he would go bad in the future or did God ordain Saul thinking he is the perfect fit?
     
  4. Corrupt Leaders = Proof Of Free Will

    God used all his attributes to formulate a plan: it had to be perfect. God is omniscient, and He places men and powers in place to fullfill His word. Two good examples are Lucifer and Judas.
    Lucifer: was "...perfect in all your ways..."; yet in spite of his beauty and position,
    iniquity was found in him and he was cast from the presence of God.
    Judas Iscariot: received the same teaching, and authority as the other disciples, and also carried the purse of monies. But he was deceived and betrayed the Lord.

    Attention: there is not any back and forth between God and any other spirit: God chose Lucifer and Judas and allowed them to rebel and betray because they wouldn't be saved (not that they couldn't). And so it is with governments and people placed in power. What God is doing is destroying the last vestiges of iniquity and sin in man (not the believer). So some government will be judged and destroyed, and others will be saved for another purpose. But everything will be done for God's purpose.
     
  5. Hardening of the heart is on par with being handed over to a reprobate mind. It only takes place after a free will decision to shame the one who ordained you into the position. Rom 1:28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
     

  6. No my ninja, "For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose"
     
  7. Let's say you owned a company. Would you promote someone whom you thought would betray you? Why would God do that? God selected the perfect fit indeed but not catering for evil / His plan, rather the 'best' available, like He did with Abraham. When someone falls, God uses that to His advantage / adapts to the situation.

    Remember God looked down at earth and looked for the most God fearing person and found it to be Abraham.

    When God looked down from heaven, He saw a man who would be faithful as a husband and father--commanding his children and his household. He saw a man who would take personal responsibility for those placed under his influence and make sure they did what God willed. He saw a man who would enforce the way of the Lord in his household and lead that household in doing justice. He did not see a man making excuses for disorder and disobedience. He did not see a man seeking his own personal pleasure at other people's expense. He did not see the man so typical in modern American society.

    We need to look at scripture carefully. Example: Gen 18:20-21 20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

    We ''assume'' He knows, but He doesn't. Why would He need to come and 'see'?
     
  8. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

    What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?
     
  9. You are making some true statements (God's will, will come to pass). But they are half truths as they stand.

    The method in God achieving His goal is paramount to us judging who He is. It is what the devil wants us to assume and leave it to anyone in the world with an IQ above 10 to conclude God is evil.

    Example: If God selected an evil leader...that evil leader will have been given power over others...to be evil...by God...making God...evil. See the problem with that reasoning?

    Now you and many of us can be forgiven for thinking that like! As Romans 9 is clear on the fact that God can do anything! But that He then proceeds to do evil, is an assumption. And a bad assumption when there is scripture saying the 'whomsoever', 'God is impartial', 'God rewards each according to His works'... and lastly that there is a hell. God making anyone / knowing anyone would go to hell makes Him evil.

    We have to remove our assumptions / human reasoning and acknowledge / grasp that God is the epitome / maximum level of good, impartial and just....just as great as His ability to create. He is omniscient, impartial, good and just all at the same time.

    Hence we have these terms for His omniscience:
    • inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
    • total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known

    Now we 'should' know that without a doubt God chooses to obey the 'rules / law' of who 'He is' to the maximum. Simply by us looking at the cross. The cross is proof that God does not take an evil route to achieve His plan. He deals with /adapts to the situation.

    The only place I will budge on...is that God does see sin developing in someone that we never can. So, God can see sin developing in Judas and make accurate predictions of his future. But God would never had select Judas if He thought that at first.
     
  10. Yes, Rom 9 is well known. But quoting it like you do is a half truth.

    We don't need to remain oblivious and nervous in the presence of a God that can do anything! and still exempt Himself...whether good or evil....as We KNOW that God chooses to be good and impartial from the rest of scripture...from the very cross and the classic statement of 'whomsoever will'.

    The devil wants us to conclude.....omniscience + creator God = no true free will = evil God

    The truth is.... omniscience + creator God + impartial + just God = free will = good God.

    Remove assumptions and replace with scripture. Understanding God is not easy / possible with the carnal mind. Just like we will never grasp how He was made. We will never grasp with our natural minds why '''God''' needs to die for us.

    In fact, if you can grasp the need and desire for God needing to die for us, you should be agreeing with me.
     
    Where is the Messiah likes this.
  11. It's not hard to understand the attributes of God, when we study His word. Assumptions should always be replaced with scripture. I'll go even further, and say God is impossible to understand with the carnal mind. God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.

    Yes, we have free will, but a pig can't act like a lion no matter how hard it tries. It's not in his nature, regardless of his free will. Though we have free will, it is impossible for a bad tree to bear good fruit. It's not in the nature. It is not until we are born again. Even the devil can not do anything outside the will of God. Look at the first chapter of Job. The devil had to get permission from God, before he could do anything. The devil does nothing, without the permission of God. God is in control of everything, He is creator or everything. He is all powerful, He is the alpha and the omega. He is the source of life.
     
  12. #12 KingJ, Mar 20, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
    Exo 14:8- And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

    You need to pay closer attention to the 'time' of God hardening Pharaoh's heart. Note it took place when he was 'king of Egypt'. Not a baby, like many insinuate off Paul's statement.

    Now we know God tried to reach out to Pharaoh with many warnings / plagues at increasing levels of severity. Why would God do that? Why not just bypass all that?
     
  13. _____________________________________________

    Saul was "the perfect fit", according to the hearts of the people: but it was not God's purpose.
    God's purpose was for the people (yes, the Church included)to always regard Him as the KING.
     
  14. ___________________________________________________

    Very good.
    Now satan did not get "permission from God"; rather God initiated the conversation and directed the scope to Job: "Have you considered my servanrt, Job...?" Why? Because had a plan. It was to defeat satan with Job!!!!
     
  15. __________________________________________________________

    Half truths? Yes: because if time constrictions. Let me try to sum up from the bottom up.
    God would not choose a Christian to betray the Christ; just as God would not choose an obedient angel to commit iniquity.
    But God chose those who would not obey or believe: regardless of whether they had the opportunity to remain in their station (who is Lucifer) or to be saved (who is Judas Iscariot).
    By the same token, God puts men in positions of power and allows them to make a choice between righteousness or evil: either way, the natural man makes his choice and suffers the consequences. God does not cause men to commit iniquity, sin, or make bad choices. There always remains an opportunity for righteousness. But God, whose purpose is for good, will use men to bring His truth to light.
    Yes, Judas Iscariot's unbelief and disobedience took Jesus to the palace of the high Priest where he was condemned: but it was our condemnation that was placed upon the Lord: and it was the sins of the world that he took upon himself.

    "All things work together for good tp them that loved God; to them that are called according to His purpose."
     
  16. Very good.
    Now satan did not get "permission from God"; rather God initiated the conversation and directed the scope to Job: "Have you considered my servanrt, Job...?" Why? Because had a plan. It was to defeat satan with Job (a man). It was a prophecy in
    the making: for God eventually defeated satan forever, on the cross and with "...the man, Christ Jesus".
     
  17. Maybe he did not get permission from God, but he could not do anything outside the will of God.

    The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

    God gave satan rules, and satan listened. Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
     
  18. ___________________________________________________________

    Lucifer could not be "re-enlisted" because nothing contrary to Holiness can stand in God's presence. As soon as "...iniquity was found..." in Lucifer, he was cast out from the presence of Holiness [God]. Why do you suppose that "...the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep..."? It was the place where satan was cast! So the universe existed (sans the stars, and sun, and moon, and earth, etc.) before satan was created, because God knew that satan would commit iniquity, even as God knew man would sin. So the first commandment with a curse was spoken after satan was created, and Grace was instituted before man was created. So satan could not be punished, but man's sins could be remitted. (I know: it brings up another question: WHY did this occur? That belongs to another post.)

    Beloved, God did not err by trusting "leaders" who would betray Him! He chose men, just as He chose Lucifer and Judas, and ordained them in places of power simply because they would exercise their free will to commit evil and disobey. God would not choose holy men to commit evil: "...but holy men of God spoke...". Evil and righteousness both have a function: to have an option available for men: "...if you be willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land."

    Beloved, Walk in the Light.
     
  19. ________________________________________

    Being given permission is not the same as asking for permission. Semantics? Maybe. The outcome is the same.
     
  20. This was quite a good read

    https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1205

    I used to think a lot on predestination and free will.. Sounds like there is no way to make any one convinced on this :) Ultimately, there is personal responsibility! :) I would go with reformed view of salvation.. Gives a greater sense of assurance of my Salvation..
     

Share This Page