Convert Vs. Disciple

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by th1bill, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. A topic for discussion, prayer and study. Andrew Wommack of and on the TV is teaching that a person can be Born Again and not be a disciple of Jesus. I wish for discussion so no article to read here. Please take time to respond.
    dario68w likes this.
  2. Hhhmmm, I'm very curious about this. I've known several people who claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus ... yet their actions did not match up. One had a wife and a mistress for example. So ... I'm curious to see where this discussion will go.
    dario68w likes this.
  3. I have not seen him on tv, if they are saying this '' a person can be Born Again and not be a disciple of Jesus'' that is clear heresy. A born-again believer is 100% disciple. There is no clearer confirmation. However, from reading the link you gave I see that he is perhaps 'un-intentionally' getting some wording wrong but overall I have to agree with what he is trying to say, namely 'Not everyone who says they are born again are born again'.

    To quote him ''I am not saying that being born again and living eternally with Jesus is not important—it’s essential! (full marks :)) I’m saying that we have changed the message from the way Jesus taught it. We have reduced the definition of “born again” to the point that in our society today, it has actually become socially popular to say we’re born again and gain acceptance in certain circles."
    dario68w likes this.
  4. I think Luke 8:11-15 is clear about this. People can be born again but never really be disciples.
    dario68w likes this.
  5. I agree with both King J and Stan on this. We are to go out and plant seeds and spread the gospel... but not everyone who says they are born again will be.
  6. Had he said be born again and never heard of Jesus, I could make an argument for that. But as far as how you worded it in the OP, I'd have to say the man has lost his mind, and if it was in a well watered lawn, he may never find it again.
  7. How do you define disciple?
  8. There is the pickle, how do you define disciple?

    How do you define born again?

    The most popular definition of the latter has only existed in church teachings for 200 years.

    The thing is, neither term means the same to another. So depending on what it means to you, may mean someone using the exact same words have a 180 degree different view.
  9. I'm thinking on this, and I'm having a really hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of a person being born again - which to me speaks of a transformative process, not merely a framed certificate - and not being a disciple - which to me means one who takes an active interest in learning God's ways and living them.
    Xian Pugilist likes this.
  10. I don't see it any differently than bering born in the natural. We all start off relatively the same and go from there. some take advantage and use everything they can while other waste their time on a self-serving lifestyle.
    The same thing happens in the spiritual realm.
  11. Here are my thoughts...

    We are born again by the Word of God,

    1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
    Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
    Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

    and Jesus said:
    Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
    Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed

    Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

    Now Jesus said that to the Jews because that is who he came for first until it was taken from them.

    And, the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch:

    Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

    Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

    Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
    Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

    I don't think you can call yourself a disciple unless you live the Word. That is what it means to be a live by the Word of God. That is why the Word is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. Jesus said that there was a narrow way and He is that way.


  12. If you mean Jesus as the Word of God causes us to be born again and being a disciple is over and above that, then I agree.
  13. Hear here!


    See, it depends on what born again is. ( I sound like Clinton)

    There is this romantic view of some instantenous, emotionally lifting, harps are played, angels sing, moment that has existed in theology since the time of WESLEY, and ONLY since then. Before that the whole thought of being born again was quite different. In fact, if that view of born again described above is the sign of salvation, 1800 years of people in the church went to hell. What I see Paul defining as born again is a process, but one with a definite ending point. However, the person changed will be changed in such a natural way, I'm very sure they would answer they are still a work in progress. How will they know? If they are watching for it, waiting for it to happen, most likely they aren't, yet, there.

    There are people who discipline themselves and force changes, like a diet, from sin. They stop smoking, drinking, don't see rated r movies, drive the speed limit, and all of this makes them feel like they are good little christians... and this is the fake holy, colossians 2, "do not taste, do not touch, do not see" person Paul describes. One who thinks that their added rules show God and others how good a Xian they are. And it has nothing to do with a change.

    Change is where the heart is changed from stone to flesh, hard to soft, self serving to charitable, and the things in life that demonstrate this change are natural without thought actions, not schemed, planned and consciously restricted activities. Born again is not a diet, its not desiring to diet either. The person focused that way is trying to affect how others and God "see" them. That's a self serving thing, not a charitable thing.

    while this is a spiritual change, it is executed and experienced in the present world, and is a very mundane change.

    To think this person, can be there without hearing the name Jesus, or know there was a Christ, is believable. They would just have to have the Love right. It is through that love we are changed, 1 j 4:16. But, for most folks, to be changed, without battling our sins in romans 6, will be like trying to lose weight by still eating cake with frosting meals.

    We can't make the change in ourselves, He will. But His change will involve me and Him, as parting the red sea reuired God and moses.

    The, I made an altar call, took the magic bath, and came up changed because now I realize I should be nice to others and I couldn't have until now, is just romantic self serving faux holiness. And that view is not present until Wesley's later years in Church history. Bwfore that, people followed God as best they could, and hoped that they were changed by God and born again. Only God will know, and HE is Lord, and master, and HE is the one to judge and determine. Claiming I would know is misguided at best and dead wrong at worse. Eternal death, via belief you are where you aren't and failing to continue the path to get there, because you think or claim you are there already.
  14. It seems that way to me as well and I also believe what you said to be the truth.
  15. Yes, given the accuracy of this quote, I would have to agree with him.
  16. I think that would depend on why they do these things. For instance, I have been trying to quit smoking for 2 years with no problem, it wasn't until I commited my addiction to Christ that the change happened. It's not because it makes me a good christian, though I think it does set a good example.
  17. As for the rated R movies thing, I have a friend who has stopped watching them, not because he thought it made him a good Christian, but because it influenced his relationship with Christ and he rather get rid of "bad" influences.
  18. Mr. D,

    I'm only addressing those insincere people. There are people that feel obliged to do all sorts of things. But making yourself withhold from something, because people look at ot as a sin, but they were never convicted is just fearful, sin centric teaching having its affect. Respect God, be aware of our sins, confess when you slipk but your focus isn't on the sins, it should be learning to love as matt 5:48 discusses. We run TO LOVE, not from sin. Running from sin has 359 wrong directions to go, running to God is the 360th. We must run WITH a purpose, not from what we fear.

    In Col 2, Paul is discussing people who are adding rules to behavior that aren't relevant and only appear superficially holy. He's saying there, that those actions, self inflicted, are a shadow of holiness. He says in another place, where the Spirit is, there is freedom. In another if you are led by the Spirit you aren't under the law. Why do people consistently try to live by the law, or make new laws to demonstrate their control?

    I'm a bad cook. I can cook a few things though. So, I cook them very well, so I can present myself as one who knows how to cook. You know what? I may act the part, and convince my friends, but I suck as a cook. I am slightly above edible on most dishes. When I make a good dish, its usually the result of a double negative, I screwed up so bad it was good. Now, people can choose pet "sins" and "master" them and present as good christians. But it doesn't mean they have changed. It means they have a good act. God is going to change you or He isn't. You are called to be His or you aren't. (Not a calvinist....), your job is not to do His, defeat sins. Its to learn how to love as He does. It says blessed are the poor in Spirit. That word for poor means dependent, incapable of defending themselves, or providing for themselves. They are blessed, not the big strong I resist drinking, smoking, cussing, whatever folks. This was the rich young ruler story. He was saved with egernal life. When Christ answers if you would be perfect, or MATURE, you must get rid of your self providence, your strength, and come depend on Jesus. That would make him perfect/mature/finished/complete. Blessed are the weak and dependent in spirit.

    Some people, spend so much time fighting for control, they do not realize they are fighting God for control and are only getting in the way.

    We are a stiff necked people as sure as Israel. Rather than trust God to do what He says He will do, if we don't understand it, for some reason, we feel we need to do it for Him.

    We are our own worse enemy.

    I'm not going to tell you not quotting smoking is good or bad, that's between you and God. As long as you seek Him, He will correct you. But if you had a shipwreck, and your friend was swimming furiously but faced the wrong way, would you tell Him, or watch him drown himself?

    Paul decided to tell them in Col 2. I think its Phil 3, major or calvin may know for sure off the fly, where he basically says, he's not aware of any sins he's indebted for, but He doesn't think about it. He keeps His head down and runs the race. Just run the race, god will do His part. Ask Gideon. If God chose someone from the mainstream protestant nation to pull a gideon, they would tell God he was crazy, call the army back, pick up weapons and charge. Why? Because what God told them wouldn't make sense. No faith, just blind desires to do God's job for Him.

    Here is one example. On these Xian chat forums, cussing is a bannable offense. Here's the kicker. All the verses people post to declare that is a sin, are actually talking abount, like slander, defamation, sometime a vulgar conversation. Vulgar means base simple, not gemtle speach. Its What Paul did. When he said those things are like crap. The greek word, skubalon is our equivalent to "sh!t, not refuse as its usually translated. Those words, as in one word is bad, doesn't exist in scripture, except for raca. Whatever that is....

    So, in Xian forums we will gossip curse (curse in the biblical sense is defaming/spoiling someone's name), slander, etc which is a sin discussed many times in scripture, and it won't violate any rule, but someone say one of those words, that can be used in prime time tv, btw, and you are shunned forever. Its backwards. Someone sold the world that a curse, which shifted to cuss after x number of years is a biblical concept. Because it makes them feel good when they don't do it. See!! LOOKIT ME!!...... but denigrating each other isn't given a second thought......

    That's the folks I'm speaking of, not you who is trying to quit for multiple other reasons.
  19. I know your audience, we will never know whats in the hearts of others though. As for the stiff necked people, I hear many people put down Israel because of how when they were lead out of Eygpt and Moses went up to Mount Sinai, they made a calf and worshipped it... and many other examples where they went against God, but in reality, we do this daily as a whole. We are stiff necked just like the israelites.
  20. Oh, I mean/meant us, not the chosen one's. Entirely, I won't begin to speak my mind of the Church unless its in person. Text alone would never be read right and I would be shot with a spaghetti gun until I died of dry noodle cuts. (I have no idea what that means...)

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