PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
Speaking frankly, removing rule 3.2b would be tantamount to insisting all users here not be allowed to be Catholic. I know a few people would vote for this but I would not feel welcome here if that were the case.
Confession
- Thread starter Flavio
- Start date
I agree, am trying to write an answer......
although I think it's better why I am posting : )
Am more on trying to describe, IMO: how the tradition came about…. not necessarily what I believe in..
Ah ok, although i think that will be “lay confession” then….and not the sacrament...
I didn't see anywhere on this thread anyone suggesting we not confess to each other. It has been pointed out we don't have to confess to a priest for forgiveness of our sins. You are misrepresenting the facts Peace.
I think this controversial topic indeed: as I understand it what started the Reformation?
What am trying to say is:
The Catholic Church for some reason or another: seems to instituted a FORM: that is: to a priest only…
While the Reformation tries to suggest or to correct: we can go directly to the throne of Grace….
I think that is all legalism on FORM…
IMO: The spirit or the essence of repentance, of truthfulness of humility of confession is the heart of the one doing the confession...
What am trying to say is:
The Catholic Church for some reason or another: seems to instituted a FORM: that is: to a priest only…
While the Reformation tries to suggest or to correct: we can go directly to the throne of Grace….
I think that is all legalism on FORM…
IMO: The spirit or the essence of repentance, of truthfulness of humility of confession is the heart of the one doing the confession...
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PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
You said that the priest is just a man with no power to forgive sins. But that is misrepresenting Catholic belief.
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PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
You once again are misrepresenting what was said. We should confess to others for accountability but the point some are making is priests can't forgive sins only God can.
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
That is exactly the point I am disputing. The priest is not pretending to be God and is not filling in for God, but being a witness. Don't you, as a fundamentalist Christian, call yourself "saved" when no one but God can save you? It seems to me that you are the one speaking for God.
Well for one I'm not a fundamentalist. Why does that term keep on popping up when someone disagrees with the Word of God? Interesting! I do think you have an agenda and it isn't working on this forum.
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
All right, you aren't a fundamentalist, my mistake, but the point remains. We don't put words in God's mouth. And I don't disagree with the word of God, I disagree with you when I feel you are not representing God's word. This is my last word on the subject because we are just annoying the admins now.
Sounds good to me. God Bless
I've been avoiding this thread, I confess...
I'm not Catholic, so I understand what those who aren't are saying. I need no middle man for forgiveness of my sins, etc. But I don't think the Catholics are wrong about their ritual/sacrament either. As Christians, we all continue to sin and I see nothing unbiblical in rites that remind us of this and have us ask for forgiveness on a regular basis. God already knows our sins before we commit them. The importance to confession is that we acknowledge and recognize the sin and try to sin no more. Because it is this that separates us from God. And I really like communion at every gathering - not 1st Sunday of the month. It's a rite that Catholics can abuse just as it is often neglected by Protestants who don't ask for forgiveness enough. (Speaking on confession not communion). Can priests not absolve a confession?
I'm not Catholic, so I understand what those who aren't are saying. I need no middle man for forgiveness of my sins, etc. But I don't think the Catholics are wrong about their ritual/sacrament either. As Christians, we all continue to sin and I see nothing unbiblical in rites that remind us of this and have us ask for forgiveness on a regular basis. God already knows our sins before we commit them. The importance to confession is that we acknowledge and recognize the sin and try to sin no more. Because it is this that separates us from God. And I really like communion at every gathering - not 1st Sunday of the month. It's a rite that Catholics can abuse just as it is often neglected by Protestants who don't ask for forgiveness enough. (Speaking on confession not communion). Can priests not absolve a confession?
I agree with @Silk and so do the scriptures:
Jas 5:16 KJV - 16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The ONLY problem I have with the way it's done in the Catholic faith is that it has to be a priest on up... James 5 says it for one another not just the leader and the repetitive "penance" afterwards...
Mat 6:5-7 KJV - 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Repetitional prayers are empty prayers because it's not the words that come out of the mouth that matters as much as the real repentance out of the heart.
Jas 5:16 KJV - 16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The ONLY problem I have with the way it's done in the Catholic faith is that it has to be a priest on up... James 5 says it for one another not just the leader and the repetitive "penance" afterwards...
Mat 6:5-7 KJV - 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Repetitional prayers are empty prayers because it's not the words that come out of the mouth that matters as much as the real repentance out of the heart.
I think you made an excellent observation on both ends.
Also you asked "Can priests not absolve a confession." The answer is YES. A priest can retain forgiveness, acting as a vehicle of God, if there is reason to do so. For example, if Jay goes to confession and says "Father, I lied to my parents, but their rules are ridiculous anyway." It is likely that the priest will notice that Jay isn't really sorry and will most likely say "Jay, how you feel about their rules isn't what's important--what is important is that you dishonored them. Please pray about this and examine your sins further, and then come back." He will likely give Jay a short prayer and some further advice, but he won't absolve him.
John 21:23 says "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
From my observations, if you refer to Martin Luther's reformation, I would probably mostly disagree. If you are referring to Hulrych Zwingli's reformation then that would be a different matter me thinks.
I can't speak for all protestant denominations, but it seems Luther was only interested in transubstantiation, Papal authority and speaking in tongues aka Latin. At least that is what the Anglicans decided to run with.
Laity can not read (in a service) the words of absolution. They can not administer Holy communion, though they can assist the minister in serving at the Lord's table..
Just to clarify: am not trying to demean the word “Reformation” ....
I think it can be compared to one Pastor i heard saying “Religion won’t save us, going to church won’t save us…even reading the Bible won’t us”…
Is the Pastor trying to demean reading the Bible? .... of course not…
On Luther, as I remember, thus I double checked with wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#The_start_of_the_Reformation
On 31 October 1517, Luther wrote to his bishop, Albert of Mainz, protesting the sale of indulgences. He enclosed in his letter a copy of his "Disputation of Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences," which came to be known as The Ninety-Five Theses.
As a non-Catholic, I only know about confession what I've learned in movies -- mostly old movies. So I guess there is a dark wood area one enters -- perhaps oak with very dark stain, quite ornate. (I saw a WHOLE one of these in an antique store and wanted to buy it so badly, but I had neither the money nor the room for it.) Has that changed? Like has it modernized? How?
So I guess you go in, and the priest is on the other side of a partition, so that both the one confessing and the confessor-priest can only be seen with great effort. Does the confessor-priest normally know who is confessing, or is that commonly kept secret? Can the one confessing request to keep it secret?
So does it always begin with, "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned"? And does the confessor always respond with the question of how long it has been since the person's last confession? How does this make a difference? Like if I have never confessed before, is something special said? What if it has been 15 years since my last confession? What if I just confessed yesterday, and I come in every day for confession?
Does the person then just begin confessing things one after another? Is the confessor expected to respond to each sin? What if the confessor doesn't think the thing confessed was a sin -- does the priest discuss it with the person or just let it go?
Is it true that after confession, some 'Hail Marys" are assigned? Are there other assignments for confessed sin? Are there other prayers? Is one ever placed on a probation-like assignment -- like do ten hours volunteer work for the St. Vincent de Paul Store or sweeping the halls of the church or something?
Let me think of a recent sin I have recently committed....Ah! I responded critically when my husband answered the phone call from the alarm company, because I was worn out and didn't want the call answered, so that I wouldn't have to go. (His answering obligated me to go.) So I go to confession. I tell the priest that was my sin. What happens? Does, for example, the priest ask for more information? Does the priest counsel me?
I think I would be nervous about going to a priest for confession because it would be giving another sinful human power over me if he knew all my secrets. He could blackmail or blacklist me. Not saying all priest do that, but I don't doubt there have been abuses...I can't see God asking me to place myself in danger of being exposed. Most of my wrongs done are between God and me.