Church Worship Music

[Grant Melville]

The New Testament Church has always celebrated God with music and as they did in the Old Testament, musical instruments were commonly used.

I have to ask for scriptural proofs that the use of instruments for Christian worship is sanctioned in the New Testament - as far as I'm aware, there are none. There's not even any historial evidence of the use of musical instruments in the early church. How could there be, when Christian worship contrasted so distinctively with Jewish and pagan worship, both of which used musical instruments, dancing, elaborate rituals and festivals. The early fathers* strictly prohibited the use of musical instruments, as well as decadent clothing and furniture. Even hundreds of years into the Christian era, history records an incident which shows that musical instruments weren't used, even then. During one of the persecutions by the Roman authorities, a body of soldiers attacked the principle church building of Nicomedia, breaking down the door, intending to descrate the place. When they got inside, they couldn't find any icons, images, statues or any other apparatus to destroy, and so they had to content themselves with burning the Holy Scriptures.

* While I wouldn't trust their doctrine, we can rely on them as contemporary historical sources

God Himself established musicians and singers for worship---and they worked full time in ministry, too, round the clock! That hasn't changed. In fact, David teaches even us in this age that worshiping with song and dance and even jumping and spinning is important to God---because GOD DOES IT! There is more than one word for "joy" and one of them means to "spin and reel", something that God does over us. I should think that if the Father enjoys us and our worship so much that he dances and spins over us, we can do that for Him.

I would agree absolutely that under the Jewish system God established all kinds of musicians for His praise. And rightly so! But what we have to see is, for us, everything is fufilled completely in Christ - He fulfilled the law, He is the Antitype of all the numerous and instructive types of the Old Testament. The heavenly system of which we're part as believers is entirely of Christ, “He who fills all in all” (Ephesians 1:23). What could we possibly add to that of nature? Christ is all-sufficient, the perfect offering to God.
We should also bear in mind the Jesus Himself is our Model and Pattern as believers on Him, not David – although we see precious features of Christ in David. Did the Lord ever dance, or play musical instruments? I’m not aware of any scripture which records that He did, and yet He delighted the Father.
I’m not aware of any scripture which says that God dances, it’s not an idea that I’m familiar with?

I find it quite puzzling that you would draw the line to serving the King at the use of natural talents. God used skilled craftsmen to create the implements and the elaborate ornamentation for His sanctuary. These men had natural gifts that were given to them for a spiritual purpose. This continues today.
I am an artist by nature, and blessed with a natural talent, but I use it for God's glory. His anointing is all over it. I consider it a spiritual gift as well.

I believe that scripture draws the line, and I don’t feel able to go beyond scripture. Again, if we look to the New Testament and study the expansive teaching we get there about the Church, we never find any thought of the continuation of the earthly system, the use of earthly things in the worship of God. Euphemia, you claim that this continues today, but really there’s not a single scripture to support that view. On the contrary, we see the end of all that in the Acts - at the stoning of Stephen, at Paul's ejection from the Temple. Stephen shows the contrast very powerfully: when brought before the council of Jews, he goes over their entire history. But when he reaches the point in the history of Solomon's temple, he breaks off to rebuke the Jews: "But the Most High dwells not in places made with hands; as says the prophet, The heaven is my throne and the earth the footstool of my feet: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord, or where is the place of my rest? has not my hand made all these things?" (Acts 7:48-50). It is a complete break with human workmanship and the earthly system. Then, as the Jews reject Stephen's testimony, "being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, Lo, I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God." (Acts 7:55-56). This is the opening up of heavenly glory.

God sees our hearts. When we are worshiping Him fully, with all we've got, and with instruments and voice, and the dance, and with art, which is what He desires, the flesh isn't a concern.

The flesh must be a concern, when we actively introduce into the house of God things that appeal directly to it. You say these are things that God desires, but, again there isn't so much as a single verse which supports that claim in connection with Christian worship.

I think you must come from the church of Christ indoctrination, and their focus on the flesh in worship. God wants us to worship Him in all we do, and so I believe that as we obey Him in that, the notions and fears about flesh interfering in worship is abated, with new spiritual boldness taking its place. God's heart is blessed by that!

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying, if you think I'm keen to focus on the flesh. I know the scripture teaches that it has to be excluded entirely - what I am after nature has to go out of sight. If I've died with the Christ, then what I am naturally has no place. That man was done with at the cross.

Euphemia, if you had a scriptural basis for what you've been saying, I wouldn't have any difficulty entertaining it. But so far you've yet to produce so much as one verse to support it, and I'm not surprised by that. It does concern me, this sort of strange doctrine. We have to bear in mind the following:

"All things are lawful, but all are not profitable; all things are lawful, but all do not edify." - 1 Corinthians 10:23

"For ye have been called to liberty, brethren; only do not turn liberty into an opportunity to the flesh, but by love serve one another." - Galatians 5:13

 

[Grant Melville]

Just my thoughts on the issue of using natural talents for the glory of God. Of course you can and should use natural talents for the glory of God. We are to do everything for the glory of God. But those talents should not come into the church. For example, if someone has the talent of comedy, he should not be doing stand-up in the church. If someone has a talent for dancing, they should not be doing it in the church. We all know what is going on. The congregation is just being entertained. Same thing with singing. But they can do those for the glory of God, perhaps outside of the church. I'm not too knowledgeable on this topic, though. Seems like a gray area.

There seems to be a scripture is in the minds of yourself, Euphemia and I. That is 1 Corinthians 10:31: "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatever ye do, do all things to God's glory." That would appear to give us the freedom to do what we want, provided it is to God's glory. But if we read on further, we get the context: "Give no occasion to stumbling, whether to Jews, or Greeks, or the assembly of God. Even as I also please all in all things; not seeking my own profit, but that of the many, that they may be saved." (1 Corinthians 10:32-33). We glorify God by our conduct if we're careful, and don't cause anyone to stumble. Paul was careful not to do just as he liked, even if he felt justified in doing so, because he loved others - unbelievers and believers, his desire was that the former should be saved and the latter preserved. It shows the care that we need to exercise for our fellow men, not just assuming that whatever we do will be to the glory of God, because we have right intentions.

 

[eric m williams]

I have to ask for scriptural proofs that the use of instruments for Christian worship is sanctioned in the New Testament ...

I'd say that is a fair request.
Not to get off topic...
We could (and should) ask the same basic question about other church practices such as special buildings, church employees, church property, set worship/gathering times, age based seperations, marriage based seperations, etc...
The list is long and I suspect that most assemblies/churches would be shocked by what they didn't find in scripture, but that they cheerfully and thoughtlessly add on a regular basis.

 

[Grant Melville]

I'd say that is a fair request.
Not to get off topic...
We could (and should) ask the same basic question about other church practices such as special buildings, church employees, church property, set worship/gathering times, age based seperations, marriage based seperations, etc...
The list is long and I suspect that most assemblies/churches would be shocked by what they didn't find in scripture, but that they cheerfully and thoughtlessly add on a regular basis.

I absolutely agree! It's often claimed that the scripture doesn't say anything about these things, therefore we're free to do as we like about them. My own personal view is that if something doesn't have the sanction of the Word, then it shouldn't have a place with us when we assemble. I believe that if we come before God about these things with subject hearts, then He'll show us how we should go forward in a way that's suitable and pleasing to Him. I fear reckless innovation and complacency, which leads to all sorts of harm. "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints." (1 Corinthians 14:33).

 

[Euphemia]

Not one single person requires scripture to mandate the use of musical instruments in worship. It is a natural act of worship of human beings, and in Christ, governed by Holy Spirit, it is a new normal to worship Jesus Christ with music, just as it has ALWAYS been since Israel became a people after God's own heart.

What is unnatural is people claiming that it is somehow unsatisfactory or even good. That is denominational conditioning, and religious nonsense, and God will judge it.

 

[naomanos]

I

I absolutely agree! It's often claimed that the scripture doesn't say anything about these things, therefore we're free to do as we like about them. My own personal view is that if something doesn't have the sanction of the Word, then it shouldn't have a place with us when we assemble. I believe that if we come before God about these things with subject hearts, then He'll show us how we should go forward in a way that's suitable and pleasing to Him. I fear reckless innovation and complacency, which leads to all sorts of harm. "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints." (1 Corinthians 14:33).

You say singing is okay? What of those people who cannot sing to save their life (me being one of them that cannot carry a tune if my life depended on it)? I am not jealous of those that can.

I would guess reading is okay as well. What of those who cannot read?

In life there are things people are good at, and things that people are not good at. That is life and I do believe that most people understand that and do not get jealous of others. Those that do should probably search themselves and submit that jealousy to the Lord for Him to work on and change.

I, for one, am glad for the organ and piano that are used in our Lutheran Church, because it drowns out my singing which sounds like a dying cat. My wife has a wonderful voice and I am happy that God blessed her with such.

 

[eric m williams]

What is unnatural is people claiming that it is somehow unsatisfactory or even good. That is denominational conditioning, and religious nonsense, and God will judge it.

Euphemia, have you considered your statement in light of what scripture shows us (Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8, and Corinthians 10)?

 

[eric m williams]

...You say singing is okay? What of those people who cannot sing to save their life (me being one of them that cannot carry a tune if my life depended on it)? I am not jealous of those that can...
I would guess reading is okay as well. What of those who cannot read?...

Given that scripture states that we are to sing and that scripture has to be read by or to someone to be known and that it is profitable and should be studied...
I'd say your questions pretty much back up the idea of comparing our choice of activities to to what scripture states.

I, for one, am glad for the organ and piano that are used in our Lutheran Church, because it drowns out my singing which sounds like a dying cat. My wife has a wonderful voice and I am happy that God blessed her with such.

For some of us, all the instruments in the world don't help. I have the vocal power to make an opera singer cry in shame, but I have a sound that is a strange mix of an elephant's bugle, a cat in heat, and a canon's roar.
Oddly enough, when everyone is singing praise, even my racket blends into something beautiful.

 

[naomanos]

Given that scripture states that we are to sing and that scripture has to be read by or to someone to be known and that it is profitable and should be studied...
I'd say your questions pretty much back up the idea of comparing our choice of activities to to what scripture states.


For some of us, all the instruments in the world don't help. I have the vocal power to make an opera singer cry in shame, but I have a sound that is a strange mix of an elephant's bugle, a cat in heat, and a canon's roar.
Oddly enough, when everyone is singing praise, even my racket blends into something beautiful.

Yet you ignore the main point of my reply.

It's life that someone will always be better you at something, you either are happy for that person or you get jealous. So to say that you cannot have instruments in worship because someone might be better at it than someone else is saying that we shouldn't sing because someone might get offended because someone is better than they are.

Yes, the NT doesn't specifically mention instruments and some denominations will go and say that you shouldn't have instruments because it can cause someone to stumble, but as I pointed out, the same could be said of singing or even reading.

There needs to be some personal responsibility in that you take account of yourself and realize that your jealousy is not of God when it comes to coveting someone else's ability.

Oddly enough, when everyone is singing praise, even my racket blends into something beautiful.

Unfortunately, mine doesn't get drowned out as we are a small congregation. So I am happy for the organ that generally is playing.

 

[naomanos]

I do think Euphemia is correct in that it is basically denominational differences in either you use instruments or you don't.

 

[Euphemia]

Euphemia, have you considered your statement in light of what scripture shows us (Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8, and Corinthians 10)?

According to the whole of scripture. what I have said stands, except I did err by not saying it this way:

"What is unnatural is people claiming that it is somehow unsatisfactory or even not good."

 

[eric m williams]

Yet you ignore the main point of my reply...
It's life that someone will always be better you at something, you either are happy for that person or you get jealous. ...
There needs to be some personal responsibility in that you take account of yourself and realize that your jealousy is not of God when it comes to coveting someone else's ability...

No, Brother. I didn't ignore it so much as just not comment on it as I don't see what part jealousy has in the issue. I know several people who are very instrumentally gifted and trained who think instruments have no place in a service. I can freely admit its possible with some people, but I have been involved in a number of discussions on the issue and have never seen where envy had a part in peoples reasons.

....but as I pointed out, the same could be said of singing...

In that you are mistaken. Please see Ephesians 5:17-20 and collosians 3:16.

....but as I pointed out...or even reading...

While you may be technically correct on this one, I have to say that you are mistaken based on the inference given in scripture. Given how many times the epistles alone refer to scripture and that to even have this discussion one must read scripture then I would say reading scripture is an implied order (especially if you have members that cannot read themselves).

 

[eric m williams]

According to the whole of scripture. what I have said stands, except I did err by not saying it this way:
"What is unnatural is people claiming that it is somehow unsatisfactory or even not good."

If it can lead someone astray then it is not good.
The fact that you and I can handle instruments in worship does not mean that every one can. That is why I listed those passages. We are not to knowingly engage in behavior if we know that someone following our example can lead them down a hurtful path.

It is not always a religious issue. Sometimes it is a completely personal issue based on a individuals particular weaknesses/strengths and a blanket statement of judgment is needlessly hurtful.

 

[Grant Melville]

the same could be said of singing or even reading.

reading scripture is an implied order (especially if you have members that cannot read themselves).

@eric m williams is quite correct, and there's even provision for those who can't read. Doesn't Paul say to Timothy, "Till I come, give thyself to reading..." (1 Timothy 4:13). That, of course, means reading out loud in the assembly, so everyone gets the benefit of the scriptures.

 

[Grant Melville]

I think this article which I've come across really summarises my exercise about the issue (all italics are the writer's, not mine):

"Question: Why are musical instruments not used in the meetings of those gathered to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Answer: True Christian worship is "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23-24). It is "with the Spirit" and "by the Spirit" (1 Corinthians 14:15-16; Philippians 3:3) and needs no fleshly aids. The Holy Spirit, indwelling the believer individually and the assembly collectively (John 14:17) is the power of Christian worship. Anything else ministers only to the flesh and, distracting the heart from the true Object of worship, is only a hindrance. It is a safe thing to say that anything that mere man in the flesh can enjoy is not suitable in the things of God. We may pray and sing and bless God in the Spirit, but has an organ a spirit? Musical instruments would no doubt aid the accuracy and the time of our singing but would hinder the spiritual character of worship, and this alone is what is acceptable to God.

No heart but of the Spirit taught,
Makes melody to Thee.

When we note the origin of musical instruments (Genesis 4:21), we learn that, like other things not wrong themselves, they were first used by the family of Cain to help them forget God.
This is still the use to which they are put by the world. In Daniel 3:5, 7, 10, 15, instruments of music were used in connection with idolatrous worship. Appealing to the religious sense of the flesh, they produce a false sense of worship.
Musical instruments had their place in the Old Testament and will again be used in the Millenium (2 Chronicles 5:11-13, Psalm 150). They, like priestly garments and sacrifices, are connected with an earthly sanctuary. But Christian worship is of faith, not by sight; heavenly, not earthly.
Again, Matthew 9:15 Contains an important principle relating to this subject. The Lord Jesus, despised and rejected by this world, is absent, and this should in large measure characterize our worship. The church feels the absence of the Bridegroom! The blare of trumpets is surely not consistent with our relation to the Lord as the Absent One! How can we worship Him, whom the world has put to death, with the very same instruments which they employ to put Him out of their thoughts? Is not our position in this respect that of Israel in Babylon (Psalm 137:1-4)? Their harps hung on the willows. "How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?" Subduedness should characterize our worship, while we think of our Lord as the Rejected One and mourn His absence.
How about musical instruments in connection with the gospel? Here, again, the appeal would be to what the flesh enjoys and would have no power over the conscience. The large place given to elaborate musical services in the camp is, no doubt, an attraction to many, and that God in His sovereignty could use the playing of a hymn, even by an unsaved musician, to the saving of a soul, we do not question. But could we who are gathered to the name of the Lord Jesus, outside the camp (Hebrews 13:13), consistently with our heavenly calling, use in our service in the gospel what God has left out as unsuited to Him in worship in His presence and think it suited to Him in His service in the gospel, either to children or adults? Rather, may we ever seek, through grace, what is suited to His presence and pleasing to Him.
Does the Word of God forbid us to possess musical instruments and use them in our homes? No. Christians are left free to be led by the grace of God which has saved them and to be constrained by the love of Christ, to live, not to themselves, but to Him who died for them and rose again (Romans 12:1-2).
In conclusion, while singing has a recognised place in Christian service (Acts 16:25; Colossians 3:16, Ephesians 5:19), musical instruments are never once mentioned in connection with it."

- 'A Young People's Meeting - The Question Box', The Young Christian, Bible Truth Depot, St. Louis, 1940, Vol. 30, pp. 132-136.

 

[Euphemia]

http://www.gotquestions.org/musical-instruments-church.html

https://carm.org/questions/about-church/can-we-use-musical-instruments-church

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/is-it-okay-to-use-musical-instruments-in-worship

 

[Euphemia]

If it can lead someone astray then it is not good.
The fact that you and I can handle instruments in worship does not mean that every one can. That is why I listed those passages. We are not to knowingly engage in behavior if we know that someone following our example can lead them down a hurtful path.

It is not always a religious issue. Sometimes it is a completely personal issue based on a individuals particular weaknesses/strengths and a blanket statement of judgment is needlessly hurtful.

Worship doesn't lead anyone astray. It's the fear of something and the humanly false judgement of something that causes people to stumble. We have much freedom in this area, and legalism is what distorts it and binds people up. Such folks need to be freed up by the Holy Spirit about this music nonsense.

 

[eric m williams]

Worship doesn't lead anyone astray...

Worship doesn't, but some of the chosen accouterments of worship can.

...Such folks need to be freed up by the Holy Spirit about this music nonsense.

That is a very narrow and legalist view.
One of our brothers in faith has a long and rough history that revolved around being involved with a particular music style. He is a great encouragement to me and a number of others here, but he knows that he cannot have anything to do that form of music anymore. He knows where it leads and because he dearly wants to avoid even the possibility of falling back into, he actively avoids it.
I know a number of others with similiar histories and covering a wide range of subjects.
It would be a cruel and cold thing to tell them that it is nonsense just because it doesn't give you any problems personally.
The bible tells us to adjust for the weaknesses of others as long as it is not sinful to do so. The passages I listed earlier address the issue of other's weaknesses plainly.

 

[Grant Melville]

http://www.gotquestions.org/musical-instruments-church.html

https://carm.org/questions/about-church/can-we-use-musical-instruments-church

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/is-it-okay-to-use-musical-instruments-in-worship

I have to say, there's no convincing scriptural case put forward here: the first two articles rely solely on one reference to the Greek word psallo or psallontes, a word which all respected scholars of Greek agree was not used in its radical form ("to rub or touch," "to twitch or twang.") even in the time of the early fathers, never mind the apostles. The third doesn't even go as far as to explore the Greek.

We have much freedom in this area, and legalism is what distorts it and binds people up.

Legalism is a strong word, and we have to be careful how we apply it. If we start to apply it to those who don't accept practices not sanctioned by the Word, then very quickly we'll find it's used against any and every attempt to stand for Biblical mandate in any matter.

 

[Euphemia]

Worship doesn't, but some of the chosen accouterments of worship can.

Anything CAN, but the distraction is in the heart of the distracted.

That is a very narrow and legalist view.

There is nothing narrow or legalistic about it. In fact, what I am seeing here is the legalist's attempt to dissuade people from worshiping fully. I will have nothing to do with such nonsense.

One of our brothers in faith has a long and rough history that revolved around being involved with a particular music style. He is a great encouragement to me and a number of others here, but he knows that he cannot have anything to do that form of music anymore. He knows where it leads and because he dearly wants to avoid even the possibility of falling back into, he actively avoids it.

Says who? Certainly not God. If one person has a problem, it doesn't mean we all do. He needs to be freed from his past by the Holy Spirit, and not project his fears on others.

I know a number of others with similiar histories and covering a wide range of subjects.

Me too, and these same people are now set free from the hold of carnality.

It would be a cruel and cold thing to tell them that it is nonsense just because it doesn't give you any problems personally.
The bible tells us to adjust for the weaknesses of others as long as it is not sinful to do so. The passages I listed earlier address the issue of other's weaknesses plainly.

What is cruel is to not offer the fact that we can be set free from the fear of carnality in worship. What is cruel is to not address that fear and help the person overcome it. We are not to turn a blind eye to it.

God is pleased by our fully entering in. There are no wallflowers in heaven, nor should there be in the house of God.