Cause and effect

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Fadingman, Sep 24, 2014.

  1. In biology class we learn that when a sperm enters the egg, a change takes place almost instantaneously that prevents further sperm from entering the egg through the acrosomal process. Salvation is also an instantaneous process, but the Bible speaks of it from two different perspectives, ours and God's.

    From our perspective, salvation happens when we believe. But from God's perspective, it is when He gives us new birth (literally, a new conception). In the former, our will is involved (John 1:12). In the later, our will is not involved (John 1:13).

    Until recently I haven't given much thought to which happens first. I've assumed that at the actual moment of salvation, I believe, and therefore God gives me new birth. But lately I've been thinking perhaps it is the other way around: I believe because God gives me new birth. My saving faith is result of the new birth. What do you think?
  2. Very interesting way of looking.. But isn't it similar to what Calvinists believe? If we go with this understanding, our will can never contradict God's will? Which would be termed as irresistible grace.. As a note, I agree with Calvinist beliefs. So I see your explanation quite interesting!
  3. Most Christians would disagree with that statement. In Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic theology 'salvation' is a process that begins at conversion and does not end until death.

    "Believing" in and of itself has no value. Satan believes, along with every single being in Hell.

    Faith is a different issue than salvation. There are many who consider themselves "saved" who have no faith whatsoever.
    Faith = trust, no more, no less.
  4. Almost. God gives us the ability to believe, but it's up to us to make the choice to believe, then we're saved, not the other way around. It's like if God gives you new roller blades, it's up to you to put them on (acceptance and salvation) and learn how to use them (faith and trust), all the while He's speaking to you on how to succeed in mastering them (walking in the Spirit). You not only have to listen, but to obey what's being told you. The rest is up to you. You will fall down (sin), but every time you get up (confess your sins) and say "I'm going to do this through God's grace", you'll get better and better until you're able to help others who have a hard time listening to God.
    KingJ likes this.
  5. Greetings:

    I would combine "election" and the story of the "Talents".If God gives you five graces,he wants ten back.If you decide to
    stay home and not go out beating the bushes,your election goes on the block.

  6. I am glad to see free will in vs 12 comes before vs 13 :).

    Calvinists can be forgiven for their belief as God is omniscient. But the chief argument is that you need to ignore a lot of scripture that points in the direction of free will. If we take all scripture together, we see the truth. Vs 12 and Vs 13 = we choose Him, we receive salvation. Salvation is something we have nothing to do with. Remember those in Abrahams bosom. They chose God unlike those in Hades. Yet they had no salvation.
  7. Personally, I believe in both free will and election, because I see both in the scriptures. I don't know how it all works, but I'll let God figure it out. ;)
    Robine, Abdicate and Ravindran says Amen and like this.

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