Carnality and Spirituality Defined

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Noblemen, Dec 22, 2015.

  1. every man of God and follower of Christ struggled with sin. Paul articulated his struggle in Romans 5. Even great men on fire for God can have seasons in their life where they must wrestle against the flesh.
  2. I did not say it was not a fact .I said if you make an assertion even of a fact you needs must give at least two reasons to uphold it on the one hand and on the other to give others the understanding of the fact .
    Filling ones head with 'fact's but having no understanding is nigh on futile and barren .
    You say we cannot think or act like God?

    If you mean to think like God in all His wisdom and omniscience .Then I would agree with you .
    But then what do you think of the scripture that says "let this mind be in you that was in Christ"?
    Be of the same mind ,let every thought be brought into subjection to the mind of Christ?
    How and in what way are we to "be transformed by the renewal of our minds"?
    If not by the Word of God and the Spirit of God.
    Is not the Word of God to teach us to see things as God sees them? and to walk in his footsteps?
    Did not Jesus say "what I see the father do that do I"?
    Then as he said "as the father sent me so send I you"
    is it not then the case that what we see Jesus doing that we are to do also?
    Indeed did he not also say greater works shall ye do because I go unto the father?"
    Then I say we are to be BLIND to the worlds ways the flesh and the devils and dumb and deaf . and alive unto God .
    For is it not written "there is none as dumb and blind as my servant"?
    For are we not in Christ "crucified with Christ?"
    "Buried with Christ"
    Risen together with Christ?
    partakers of the divine nature?
    Is it not written that it is God that worketh within us both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure .

    and if Jesus said "the words that I speak are not my own words but the Father who is in me he doeth the works "
    Is it not then now "Christ in you the hope of glory"?
    Then it is not I who doeth the Work but Christ who is in me?
    Thus you might say I agree with you ? No man can do the work of God .
    No man can glory but in God .
    But are not men co -labourers with God also?
    and if Christ preached are we not all called to preach at least the milk of the Word to all men?
    and if he was annointed to preach are we not then also . Not being equal with God .
    But as the oil flowed down from Arrons head to beard and down .
    Even his toes then were annointed with the same oil that annointed the head .
    "For if the same Spirit that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead dwell in you .He shall also quicken your mortal bodies "
    The spiritual man then is one where it si the Spirit that dominates or rules the body and the flesh and the mind.
    Who walks after the Spirit and not after the flesh who walks by faith and not by sight .
    The carnal man is one who is BORNagain of the Spirit but is still walking after the carnal mind and thus walks by sight . and grieves and quenches the Spirit .
    Abraham when he listened to his wife Sarah tried to do in the flesh what God had said will be done by Him .
    The natural man is spiritually dead and does "always oppose or resists the Holy ghost"

    in Christ
  3. Yet I find it strange that no one mentions what comes after in the same reasoned argument .
    "But thanks be unto God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"
    Even as our salvation was a gift . So also the victory that is received by faith also.
    The struggle more often than not is not willing to die or be made conformable unto his death.
    The other battles we become more than conquerers through Him that loved us ......

    in Christ
  4. I fear you misunderstand what God has wrought by calvary.
    A man who is dead and buried with Christ cannot struggle for that means he is still alive .
    There is NOTHING in the old man worth saving it should be put to death. and justly so.
    We are by nature a child of Adam a child of wrath ,sons of disobedience born in sin and shapen iniquity .
    God does not make evil men good . he makes dead men live .
    A catterpillar has a life its own appetites and ambitions in life .
    To become a butterfly it must die .
    It must die within the cocoon God has supplied for it .
    if ti dies outside of it it is lost .
    That which emerges and to all intents and purposes is born from the cocoon is NOTHING like the caterpillar . It has a different life different appetites and ambitions.
    So then in like manner we are BORNagain from the DEAD .
    a NEW creation founded upon " better promises" a better covenant" a better priesthood" (hebrews)
    Does that mean we have no sin? no. For the body we have is still subject to the law of sin and death and if we allow the flesh to rule then sin will reign and we will sin.
    If on the other hand we allow Christ to reign and the Spirit to govern then "we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh"
    When we pray "thy kingdom come " we are also praying 'My kingdom go'
    In 1 John the emphasis is NOT tiny tiny "if we sin ........."
    The emphasis is on we shall not sin .
    but "IF we do then we have an advocate with the Father ...."
    When we are BORN we do but eat and deficate and grow . It is tolerated .
    But we are expected to grow from new BORN to "little children "?
    and to learn to control our bodies and seek soon the meat .
    What is tolerated in a new BORN is not tolerated in "little children"
    and what sins little children do is not tolerated in "young men"
    "and foolishness in a wise man is as a fly in the ointment "
    We grow in grace and in the knowledge of God .
    We are saved when we are BORN again .
    But we are also saved every day of our lives and when we stand before God and throughout eternity .
    Even as the natural body has blood that continually wasshes the body and cleanses it from all impurites and infectiosn and the like .
    So also the body into which we have been baptised into.
    For if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin"
    That is continually .
    "Ye young men the Word of God dwells in your richly and abides in you and ye have overcome the wicked one"
    Is a message yet to be preached on let alone understood and lived by.
    But it does suggest two things . The devil is not as great as he thinks he is .
    and the church is not to be on the back foot but it is the very gates of hell "that shall not prevail against it "

    in Christ
  5. May I say to you Jim, that we do not struggle because we are growing and learning how to live with Christ, it is the simple fact that when we were lost, the devil left us alone. When we come to Christ the devil now comes against us with everything he has.
    Cturtle likes this.
  6. My dear brother, it is my opinion that there is a lot of confusion over the Bible teaching of the sin nature. It seems that many Christians fail to understand the doctrine of two natures and I say very candidly that I am no expert on it at all.

    However I do know what the Scriptures say. They say that every single person ever born of a woman ( Except Jesus) was born with a sin nature. It is through birth that we receive that sin nature. Everyone can disagree with me but lets look closely at Romans 5:12..
    "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon ALL men for that all have sinned".

    Adam's sin resulted in a sinful race of men. The entry of sin into the world is traced back to one man from which all mankind came. ALL HAVE SINNED is a reference back to Adam where in times past we all were in him therefore by imputation we all have sinned. When he fell the entire human race fell and the result was "constituted sinners".

    That is exactly what Romans 5:19 confirms...........
    "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of "ONE" shall many be made righteous.

    Now, stay with me here. In John 3:6 the Lord Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and He insisted upon the necessity of being "Born Again", born of the water and the Spirit and then He added these words..............
    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit".

    What does that mean?????? It means that Jesus, the Master teacher just told the world plainly of the existence of TWO NATURES, each one characterized by its source. "FLESH" is the name of the one because it comes from the flesh just as Paul told us in Romans 5. "SPIRIT" is the name of the other because it comes from the Holy Spirit of God.

    The Old Nature is also called:
    1). The FLESH.
    2). The Outward man.
    3). The Old man.

    The New Nature is called:
    1). The Spiritr.
    2). The Inward man.
    3). The New man.

    So then, it is evident that when we speak of the "FLESH" as the OLD MAN, it is the OLD NATURE for it belongs to us from Adam by natural generation. Then "SPIRIT" is the NEW MAN or New Nature and it is ours when born of the Holy Spirit through regeneration.

    What's the point???? We can see that within us are TWO natures who are at war with each other, in us after we come to Christ. One ios from Satan and one is from God. As they battle over us we are caught in the middle. When you and I were born again of the Spirit, there was implanted in us by the Holy Spirit, a New Nature which is spirit and the first result of that action is this clash between the OLD and the NEW Natures. One from God by regeneration and one from Adam by generation.

    Galatians 5:17.......
    "For the FLESH lusteth against the SPIRIT and the Spirit againt the Flesh, and they are contrary the one to the other".

    This nowhere says that the OLD Nature dies when we come to Christ. It says they OPPOSE each other!!!!!!
  7. It is true that the devil attacks us, but then we have a promise that if we resist he will flee from us, James 4:7. We also have a promise that an away of escape shall be provided when temptations come, 1 Cor 10:13. Then during the millennium the devil is incarcerated. During this 1000 year reign, will those that made it through alive continue to sin? What happens if they do? If they don't, then why loose the devil? There is a camp of Christians that find a comfortable spot in their walk where they choose not to deal with sin in their lives. Then there is a camp of Christians where they believe that grace covers all sins and live as they wish and continue sinning. So, why did Jesus bother to come? Both camps don't even deal with sin in their own lives.

    The truth is, God has not changed. Sin is death, and Christians can still choose death over life in our daily lives. Yes, they'll still go to heaven, but by the skin of their teeth, 1 Cor 3:15. So what is one to do with these verses:

    1 Peter 4:1 (KJV)
    Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; ​

    2 Peter 2:14 (KJV)
    Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
    We think we fight only with the devil, but we also fight the flesh, the old man, the sin nature. Indeed we fight within ourselves in the flesh as Paul did in Rom 7, but many just accept that and end the fight. "Oh well, I guess I can't stop sinning." Yet many don't bother to read the last verse! So for those that continue in sin, read what James warns:

    James 4:8-11 (KJV)
    Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and [your] joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. ​

    I have to admit, I don't know when I last howled at the sin still in my life! People often complain that God doesn't hear them and rather than investigating why they just gripe. Prayers are not heard when:

    Psalms 66:18 (KJV)
    If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]: ​

    1. trouble, wickedness, sorrow
    a. trouble, sorrow
    b. idolatry
    c. trouble of iniquity, wickedness ​

    So this leads to an interesting discovery, iniquity isn't just wickedness, but trouble and sorrow too! Which reminds me of this verse:

    Hebrews 3:12 (KJV)
    Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. ​

    Evil heart... sounds like a serial killer... but evil in this verse really means:
    1. full of labours, annoyances, hardships
    a. pressed and harassed by labours
    b. bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and trouble ​
    2. bad, of a bad nature or condition
    a. in a physical sense: diseased or blind
    b. in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad The word is used in the nominative case in Mt. 6:13. This usually denotes a title in the Greek. Hence Christ is saying, deliver us from "The Evil", and is probably referring to Satan.​

    Very interesting. The devil comes to steal, kill and destroy, John 10:10, causing labors, annoyances and hardships.
    Cturtle likes this.
  8. Gerald,
    I think that we are talking about the view, and the word that catches us is when I use the word struggle.

    Through Christ, we do not need to struggle with sin, in our salvation, we are dead to sin, and no longer slaves to it. And every saved man desires for the day to come when he no longer sins.

    Now, we will still wrestle with the old nature, every time we sin, that is apparent. And as we mature in our walk with Christ, a sin that we were once comfortable with, will be brought to our attention and rooted out by Christ.
  9. All of that is very good info! The devil is a real personage and he is the prince of the power of the air.

    As for those who live in the Millennium and your question if they will sin. To me the key to that is the people who enter the Kingdom are believers who survive the Tribulation and Christ will rule over them and their descendants with a "rod of iron".
    That is seen in Psalm 2:9, Revelation 2:27, Revelation 12:5, Revelation 19:15. I have to ask myself......What does it mean to rule with "a rod of iron"?

    Isaiah 9:6-7 says........
    " For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

    In this messianic prophecy, we see that Christ will rule with "judgment and justice." Therefore, to rule with a rod of iron would mean that His rule will be just, and punishment will be swift and harsh which seems to tell me that yes, there will be sin among those born during the 1000 year rule of Christ.

    Micah 4:3 says ...........
    "He shall judge between many peoples, and rebuke strong nations afar off; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

    Christ will deal with rebellion promptly in the Kingdom, and peace will prevail during this time without a doubt.

    Now you asked......."Why loose the devil"? Now that is the question I have asked for years. He is locked up and everything is peachy. BUT.............if God does not allow Satan to temp those humans born during the 1000 year rule of Christ, He would be breaking His Word and we know that can not happen.

    All those who are born during the Millennium will enjoy the benefits and blessings of Christ's reign on the earth, but they will still be born with a sin nature, and they will still have to freely repent and believe the Gospel, personally choosing Christ as Savior and Lord.

    Undoubtedly, one of the primary reasons God gives us this picture of what will happen in time is to demonstrate the deep-seated sin nature inherent in all of humanity.

    Jeremiah 17:9.........
    " The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? "

    That also seems to answer the sin eradication theories. Since Satan is locked up for 1000 years, and those born during that time, when Satan is loosened for a little time at the end of the 1000 year rule, millions of people rebels against God. That says to me that the Old Sin nature is alive and well in all those born during that time and at the 1st appearance of Satan they do what we all do and that is give in to the temptation to sin which is exactly what they do. That of course leads to Magog II which brings in the New Earth dispensation.
  10. Why my good friend Major - Yes you may ! ;)
    That is the point - if a born again christian struggles with sin then there lies the problem and answer. The focus is to strong on the sin and not enough in Christ. Men like to use scripture to edify their short comings and so forth instead of actually getting to the root of the problem.

    I am not saying sin does not come our way - all I have tried to say is simply this. We as Spirit filled beleivers should Not Struggle with sin - if we do Struggle then we are Fighting with our strength and not learned to walk in the spirit. The struggle will always be on our end and in our strength.
    Have a very Blessed and "Peaceful" day my friend
    God Bless
    James W
    Major and Cturtle say Amen and like this.
  11. Hi Gerald,
    No sir I have not said we can not think like God. Here is a clip from the post I made that you are repllying to.....

    This is what they do Not say - we can not think like God or act like God
    However the Truth found in these two simple lines of profound scripture paint the picture clearly and you could say it is talking to a carnal minded Chritian at that. Why ?

    Because God is telling us our thinking is off.We are not thinking like Him or anotherwords as He has commanded us in His most Holy Written Word. We are not operating as He has shown us to operate......However if we will change the way we are thinking(unto His ways) then we will begin to Do Things His Way and see God Results.

    Gerald you can clearly see I did not say we can not think like God.
  12. Hi Klub,
    Romans 5 and Pauls struggles ? You might want to show me this.
    If you are using something such as Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    Well my friend then you simply might be taking this out of true context. Lets ask our selves who Paul was directing this to at the time. Yes we know it is for us too but for this post lets simply see why Paul was saying this.

    Paul is teaching something new to the people "The New Covenant of Christ" and this was all so new to them. These folks had no idea about anything like this. They grew up under the law and all they heard was how bad they were and now these gentleman are telling them how loved and blessed they are.

    So "therefore" Paul must teach these folks why they are having problems and why sin still has a hold on them and so forth. Paul was simply teaching and showing them by example Why the fight or Desire of sin was still strong in them.

    Now lets look at this
    it is the sin that dwelleth in me - Paul once again is using an example - Paul is showing them if he keeps sinning or doing the things he does not want to and not doing the things he knows he should then it is the sin that dwelleth in him and not him.

    His point is Need to get more God in you. You need His word in you. The change comes from the inside out.

    So in all honesty lets ask our selves this one question - why is there sin that dwelleth in any one ? No ! the answer is not because we are born into sin. That show already packed up and left town if you are a born again spirit filled man. NO! The answer is because one has Not filled them selves with more of Christ then flesh. So if a born again beleiver has any struggle in any area it is simply because in that area there is more of them then Christ.

    Laugh if you will - Scripture tells us - The Blessing of the Lord Maketh us Rich and adds no sorrow to it.
    1. Rich as in strong - blessed - whole in all area's of our life and being
    2. The word sorrow is also found to mean Toil which is just another word for Struggle.

    No ! No sir we need not struggle with sin.
    God Bless
    James W
    Cturtle likes this.
  13. I did mean Romans 7, thanks for catching that.

    I'm not saying that we need to struggle with sin, I'm saying we will, because we are not perfect. And I agree, if we focus on the sin, we will only continue in the sin, if we focus on Christ and His power, we will be victorious through him.
    Major likes this.
  14. You said that you are not saying we need to struggle with sin But that we will.
    The word teaches us we dont have to struggle with sin and the choice would be left up to each born again beleiver.

    You used the word perfect as in we are not perfect so we will struggle with sin. So get more perfected by the renewing of your mind and taking every thought captive.

    The word tells us His people perish from lack of knowledge. ( Hosea 4:6 )
    a wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength. (prov 24:5)

    All through out scripture we read where Jesus is showing us and telling us that if we truly beleive in our heart (core being spirit) we will have what we say. Klub this works with our thinking in all area's as well. As long as you truly beleive you will always have to struggle with sin ( no matter how you word it ) well bro you will more then likely have to struggle much.

    You can laugh if you want but look around beyond your circle of life to those who are prosperous and well and whole in all area's of their lives. These folks who many think God gives them more favor then most and so forth. NO sir that is not it. These folks have not only understood Gods truths or ways but learned how to operate or function in this kingdom once they got born again. The word made it all. The word in them made them whole and prosperous and well and able Because they believe the word over man and dont beleive such things as man will always Struggle with sin.

    One day brother you too will get tired of the struggle and battle and find out for your self. I pray it be sooner then later.
    God Bless
    Major and Cturtle say Amen and like this.
  15. My apologies . I stand corrected .
    I will only say we can IN Christ and in part.
    For instance when he gives us wisdom it is not his all wisdom but the wisdom that is needed for our needs .
    In Christ
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  16. Thanks Jim. It always comes down to "sin" doesn't it???

    I agree and add long as we cling to any confidence in ourselves and struggle in our own strength, we only hinder God working in and trough us.
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  17. What then do you make of that letter Paul wrote to them who were made "perfect"?
    Yet in another he says he has not yet reached perfection?
    It can only mean we are perfect on the way to perfection.
    How can that be you may ask?
    When the first Adam was created was he not perfect?
    Are we not a "new creation in Christ Jesus"?
    and thereofor 'perfect'?
    But to be BORNagain is to be born perfect in Christ.
    But a new BORN though perfect is not yet perfected .
    even as a the first shoots of a seed is perfect yet it too is not yet perfect .
    I would suggest then that the struggle is not that we are not perfect but because we are tempted by our own lusts and have not yet conquered them.
    Jesus was tempted in all points as we are.
    Was he not perfect ?
    He was not tempted in all points as if he was tempted with every sin a man is tempted with but "in ALL POINTS"
    For it is in the lust of the flesh of the eyes ,of the mind and the pride of life that he was tempted with as we all are .
    For " a SEASON" there are breaks as it were and we are not tempted 24/7 but for seasons .
    The lust of the flesh . Turn these stones into bread . He was very hungry. We have to learn to regulate and be disciplined in our eating for one thing .But here also the annointing is not given to us for gain .
    The lust of the eyes . He was shown all the kingdoms of this world and the glory of them.
    The pride of life if you will cast yourself down from the pinnacle fo the temple .........
    The lust of the mind if you will bow down and worship me?

    ALL temptations are designed to get a child of God from walking in the power of Spirit and to have the flesh to rule .
    and in each point as the Lord was so are we .
    The answer or resolution of those temptations are as the Lords also .
    and to go to that place where people never seem to go to . "But thanks be unto God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" because they have been led to believe that 'were only human ' but Paul says we are not "mere men"
    or imperfect but Paul speaks to them that are . etc.
    If the Lord is building His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it .
    It is not the church or the believer who is to be on the back foot .But the very gates of hell who is having the hard time .
    For even the little toe of the Lord is more than a conquerer through him that loved us .
    For the oil that was poured out on Arrans head did not stop there but ran down his beard to his feet .

    in Christ
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  18. Amen .
    Gold when tried in the fire has all the dross come to the surface and is skimmed off and the gold is purified and purified and purified.

    In Christ
  19. Yes sir it does at that. Exactly because Gods word works best or rather only works His way or the way He said it would. You can spend a life time searching His word and you wont find any place where God ask us for our ways in doing something over His.

    Doing things Gods ways is simple - and just hard not doing it our way. I mean our way would stem from our soul ( mind will and emotions ) if we renew them as He commands us to unto His ways then we begin to think as He thinks and we get the results He says we will. How much more simple could it get ?

    All it takes is a good quality choice to decide to do it His way or how He has shown us to live here in His kingdom. Then there is no more question on how we operate in our daily lives.
    I like this that I heard some time back - All we Need is a Willing Heart to be Willing to do it His way. After that He has got this for us.
    Any way nice tio hear from you
    God Bless
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