Can Believers Live Their Lives Without Committing Sin?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by PetriFB, Nov 22, 2013.

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  1. Time and time again, believers start discussing and teaching the doctrine that believers can be perfect and live a life without sin here on earth. That doctrine is a very evil and dangerous false doctrine. Please read this text with prayer and test it by the Word of God.

    The whole article is on my site: http://www.kotipetripaavola.com/liarsdonothavethewordofGod.html
     
  2. A Christian walks as Jesus walked, and Jesus did not sin.


    (1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”


    Jesus came to defeat Satan/sin, and your post is saying Jesus failed.


    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


    Jesus said those who did not live God’s Word would not come with him. Living God’s Word includes not ever sinning. God called his people to be perfect.


    (Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


    (Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
     
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  3. Giver, PetriFB's article is correct, and you mislead people with your heresy.
    For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
     
  4. (1 Kings 8:46)" If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
     
  5. Amen!
     
  6. (1 Kings 8:46)" If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
     
  7. So you believe something said in the Old Testament negates the following? Remember Jesus came to complete the Law.


    (Matthew 5:17) “Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved.”


    A Christian walks as Jesus walked, and Jesus did not sin.


    (1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”


    Jesus came to defeat Satan/sin, and your post is saying Jesus failed.


    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


    Jesus said those who did not live God’s Word would not come with him. Living God’s Word includes not ever sinning. God called his people to be perfect.


    (Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


    (Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
     
  8. "Jesus came to defeat Satan/sin, and your post is saying Jesus failed"

    This is another one of the points on which you are very wrong.
    Jesus defeated sin in that we need not "die" eternally for our sins, they can be forgiven.
    Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there are men that do not sin, it says just the opposite repeatedly.
    Peter sinned, Paul sinned, except for Jesus EVERYBODY SINS.
     
  9. You make such a statement and the following verses prove you so wrong.



    (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”


    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


    (1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”


    (1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”


    (1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
     
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  10. The doctrine of sinlessness has many variations. Some people teach that when a person is saved, he or she becomes perfect[​IMG] and sinless. Others teach that it is possible for believers to achieve a perfect, sinless state where believers no longer consciously commit sin. The advocates of the doctrine of sinlessness argue that because believers have been released from sin, they can no longer commit any sin.



    1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.



    Here is the Bible[​IMG] passage which the advocates of the doctrine of sinlessness use as the basis for arguing that the Bible says that believers cannot commit any sin after they have been saved.



    When we study[​IMG] this subject by comparing it to what the Bible as a whole says about it, we understand that nobody born of God can sin continously without realising that it is wrong and then stopping doing it.



    Galatians 2:
    11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
    12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
    13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.




    1 Peter 2:
    1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
    2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:




    The Bible says that hypocrisy is a sin and people should not act and live like hypocrites. Peter and Barnabas also went astray and were hypocrites, which means that 1 John 3:6 does not say that believers can be sinless and that believers never commit sin.



    Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."



    Based on the above verse, many people teach that believers can be perfect. When you study[​IMG] the context, you will notice that the passage instructs us to love our brethren. Here, it means that believers must try to live their lives through the love of God, and the love of God is perfect.



    However, believers do not become perfect in this life, which is proved by 1 Peter 2:1, 2 as well as Paul's teaching where he says that he has not become perfect but is on his way to it:



    Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.



    When we study[​IMG] the Word of God in the Bible (Jewish Puclication Society Old Testament), translated by Jews from Hebrew into English, we see that they have translated the word "perfect" as "wholehearted" or another word, but never as "perfect" when it concerns people. When it concerns God, the word "perfect" is used in the translation.



    The word[​IMG] "tamiym" in Hebrew for "perfect" can be translated in different ways, depending on whom it concerns. People here on earth can never be perfect in this life because their journey here on earth is always imperfect. That is why Apostle Paul taught that he had not become perfect. God is perfect but believers do not become perfect and sinless in this life. The Bible[​IMG] as a whole says that no believer can become perfect and sinless in this life.



    Some people teach that believers can become perfect so that they never again consciously commit sin. This is a false doctrine, too, because just one wrongful thought of your brethren is a sin and you cannot think wrongful thoughts without being conscious of them. Many advocates of this doctrine defend it fiercely and they are bitter, proud and contemptuous of those who do not believe them. Bitterness, pride and contemptuousness are conscious choices. The list could continue forever, but already the things I have listed above prove that no one can live their life without sin, not even so that they do not consciously commit any sin.
     
  11. Amen!
     
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  12. I believe those who want to believe that Paul accused Peter of deliberately committing sin, are doing so to excuse their own failings.


    Using such assumptions as Peter sinning, so as to do away with what scripture says about those who sin is nothing but flat out denial.


    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

    John said one who sins are of the devil. People in order to deny this verse will accuse Peter of deliberately sinning, and so if John is right it makes Peter of the devil.


    You talk of studies of scripture. When one studies scripture are they not just studying other men’s understandings of the written Word?


    My witness is that Jesus personally sat next to me, and had me open the bible to where is tells us Christians are dead to sin. Jesus personally taught me that a Christian never sins after he or she receives the knowledge of the truth. That is never sins and then receives forgiveness.
     
  13. We've been going round and round with this and going nowhere. You have your own take on scripture and will not be swayed
    (even though your take is in opposition to the vast majority of Christians, both living and deceased).

    If, you are as you claim to be, sinless and walking as Jesus the Christ did, what it is that you can do?
    In what way are you superior to those that sin? Can you walk on water? Can you heal the sick?
    If so, why are you blathering here instead of ministering to those who so definitely need healing?
    Why are our hospitals full of the diseased and dying when we have those who are personally tutored by Jesus walking the Earth? Why are you, o sinless one, not showing the way of peace to our warmongering leaders?

    If the God's own sinless ones are here, what exactly are they doing?
     
  14. 1 John 1:
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    8 If we say that we have no [ekhomen] sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.




    The verses above are intended for those who are already saved. Verse 8 includes the Greek word "ekhomen" which is in the active present indicative form, which means that the sin had been committed now, in this moment, which was an occurred fact.



    Many people argue that it was not the present, but sin committed in the past when the person was not yet saved. The testimony written in the Bible disproves this because it was about believers who had been saved and had went astray to commit sin, which is why they were advised to confess their sins and to stop doing them so that the sins would be forgiven.



    According to the Bible, it is not possible for believers to live totally without sin. This passage teaches us that if believers deny that they have sinned, they make God a liar and the Word of God is not in them because no one becomes totally sinless in this life. The Word of God clearly teaches this. Also, if a believer denies that they have sinned and they believe they are sinless, the Word of God is not in them and they are living a lie.



    This teaching is very important because the Bible says that a person, who believes that they are sinless, is living a lie, and does not have the Word of God. Many believers say that we should only take that what is good and not care about that what is wrong. It is true that no one is perfect and that we all are mistaken in regard to something. When someone claims that he or she is sinless, the Bible says that he or she is living a lie and does not have the Word of God. This means that we cannot receive anything from him who is living a lie and who does not have the Word of God. That is why you should avoid such doctrines and people, and you should not listen to their teachings or be in contact with them.



    God has a serious, unsympathetic approach to people who imagine that they are sinless. That is why He says that such a person does not have His Word. This kind of teaching also mocks the atonement of the Lord Jesus because the atonement not only atones sins which we committed when we were not yet saved, but also the sins which we commit as believers.



    Because the Bible teaches that believers cannot live a sinless life here on earth, those living under the misconception of a "sinless" state mock the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus because they do not bring their sin of being proud (sinlessness) and other sins of their to be cleaned by the blood of the Lord Jesus Messiah. Therefore, they are living a lie and the Word of God is not in them, and that is why we must not listen to the teachings of such people, but we should advise them to stop committing their sin of being proud.



    The Bible as a whole says that the Bible does not teach that it is possible to reach a state of sinlessness. That is why the Bible teaches us to grow in faith because a person who is growing has not reached perfectness (sinlessness) and is growing towards it, but will not reach it in this life.



    The teaching of the congregation says that we, believers, must avoid sin and try to win the temptations of sin and to stop committing sin if someone has gone astray to commit sin or to live in sin. It is the right thing to do to try to avoid sin, but deception sets in when someone teaches that it is possible to reach a sinless state or that believers are sinless. We can live free from sin up to the point where God has grown us to and up to the point where we have agreed to grow to, but we will never be totally sinless.



    I understand that many people want to believe in a pure faith in the Lord Jesus Messiah, but our desire and faith should adhere to the Bible, or else we lose our way and go astray.



    It is correct to teach and encourage believers to abandon sins and to learn to avoid the temptations of sin. The teaching becomes false when people teach that you can reach a sinless state, or become sinless and be sinless. The Bible teaches us that faith is growth to becoming similar to the image of God. This means that we cannot become perfect for as long as we live here on earth, growing in faith. That is why Paul taught that he has not become perfect but is on his way toward it, that is, is growing toward it.



    The doctrine of sinlessness is non-Biblical. It opens doors for demonic activity as people try to find glory of their own and are proud because according to the Bible as a whole, it is not possible for believers to live in this world without sinning or living a totally sinless life. The Word of Faith movement (many people, not all) has forgotten Biblical truth, which is why satanic spirits have an impact there through different manifestations, such as that sick people are healed and powerful deeds take place, but they are performed by the enemy's demons.



    When people imagine that believers can be sinless, they are proud, and, according to the Bible, they are living a lie and do not have the Word of God in them. Among the Word of Faith movement (not all), there is a doctrine which argues that people are sinless. This teaching and "anointment" is based on demonic spirits because the Bible says that this kind of person does not have the Word of God because they are living a lie.



    The enemy has several ways of deceiving people. Teachings and things which are totally contrary to what the Bible teaches, and deception where the topics may be correct, but the power originates from elsewhere, building on false, harmful teachings and the pride of people. Through all this, demons are fueled to do deeds through false power. The doctrine of sinlessness is a fuel which opens the door to demons.



    However, many believers have not understood the gift of faith and what being a disciple of the Lord Jesus Messiah means. Many do not understand that they are righteous by the grace of God, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, they have the opportunity to be released from sins.



    Many believers focus too much on themselves and their own flesh, and because of this, they bear guilt and shame in their hearts. They focus on their own flesh because they are incapable of living a victorious life in faith and in the power of the Holy Spirit, where sins are broken from their heart and they have the ability to say "no" to the temptations of sin.



    Some believers caress their sins in their hearts, which is why they cannot experience the victory over the sins through the power of the Holy Spirit. When you understand that you need to stop committing sin and that you have the opportunity to say "no" to sin through the power of the Holy Spirit, you will learn to say "no" to sin by the grace and power of God.



    God has promised to release us from sin and that He certainly does that when we grow in faith, love God and follow truth, and want to grow in knowing God and in doing the will of God.



    The healthy, Biblical teaching is that we should avoid sin and to be ready to die (death of the flesh) from sin through the power of the Holy Spirit. However, we must keep in mind that we will not become sinless in this life. However, we must not support sin in any way, but we must grow in faith every day and, with the help of the power of the Holy Spirit, to block and say "no" to the temptations of sin according to the point we have grown to in our faith.
     
  15. You ask what I can do, and my answer is nothing. God who has made a home in me is doing everything. I do as God tells me to do.


    (John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”



    Yes God has healed, and I believe brought a man back to life through me, but it sure was not me that did that.


    God keeps me safe from Satan/sin, and again it sure is not me that has that power to defeat Satan/sin.


    I am where I am with God because he chose to use me. All I did was say yes to his request.


    After my saying yes to God, he from then on has led me to do his will. God’s will is for me to live his Word, and follow him.


    I could share how after saying yes to God’s request, that I lost everything I owned, and found myself living in a tent with my wife, and three babies. How I lived for the next thirty some years doing just what Jesus told me to do. This sharing would take a book to tell.


    Yes I know Jesus personally, or better yet Jesus knows me personally. Jesus is always with me, and in my thoughts, and he is in my thoughts because he has given me the mind of Christ,
     
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  16. Your use of (1 John 1:8-10) tells me you have very little understanding of what John was saying. It also is calling John a liar.


    When Jesus told the apostles that they were clean, do you believe that they would have been liars if they then said they were sin free?


    “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.”


    Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not?


    John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.


    (1 John 1: 8-10)If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”


    If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?


    John later says: New American Bible

    (1 John 3-10) “Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure. Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him. Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.”



    By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.


    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


    John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.


    Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.


    (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”


    (Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
     
  17. I knew what the answer would be before I asked.
    A bit of "avoid the issue" and then the "well actually, nothing".

    You will note, that in the past, those who actually were the "doers of the word, not just hearers"
    were able to show their faith by works, not just words.

    You are all words.
     
  18. Do you judge me, as you would like me to be? How do you know what Jesus has me do?


    The life I live is as Jesus directs, and you have no clue as to how I live my life.
     
  19. Short answer: nope

    But we can strive to get closer to holiness by 'turning away' from sin and setting our eyes on the prize.

    The good thing is we are seen through the lens of Christ's Blood by God that makes us 'sinless' before Him in that day...

    (That doesn't mean it is 'okay' for us to purposely continue in sin-God forbid!)
     
  20. You are wrong, and scripture tells us you are wrong. If you still deliberately commit sin then you are of the devil, and not God.


    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


    (1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”


    (1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”


    (1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
     
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