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blind spots and misconceptions

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by JohnC, May 13, 2015.

  1. I saw a post on here earlier that apparently was deleted.... I think it was kinda headed in the direction of "Catholic bashing".... It's a shame that this is where we take accounts like this.... Bash the other guy....

    There is an account of a Catholic nun Charlotte Keckler - who escaped out of a "Closed Cloister", found Jesus, and spoke openly and wrote about what she experienced... Utter hell and torture for years.... (You can google it up if you are interested...)

    I certainly do not want to make light of what she experienced - no person should have to experience the sort of things she did... No doubt she would have preferred execution because it would have ended the pain... I also have no desire to excuse the responsibility of those who DID these things in the Name of Jesus....

    At first - when you read such an account and allow the horror to sink in - there's a strong temptation to launch into "Church Bashing".... Saying in effect "God, I thank you that you have made me RIGHTEOUS - unlike those Sinners over there" (Luke 18:9-14)

    BUT - there's a GREAT danger in this sort of attitude.... See - we ALL have blind spots - places where we often completely MISS God and His nature.. Places where we "Put the name of God upon things".....

    For example, how Keckler ended up where she did... The doctrine of "Mortification" - the destruction of the body to attain a holier, more spiritual state.... It was COMMON practice in the Western Church for well over 1,000 years... It was based on a very COMMON Greek/Pagan belief that the Flesh was EVIL and the Spirit was Good... and so punishing and abusing the flesh - even to the point of torture and death was a GOOD and Godly thing - and thus it would bring you into more close contact with God....

    We really only STARTED to put a stop to it with Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation.... but all those people who practiced it - they THOUGHT that was The Way to God..... AND - it still goes on to some extent or another, though it is not nearly as common as it was....

    BUT... This should seriously make us step back for a moment... Just as THEY were blind and didn't see it - so are WE... We say "Those men were evil - WE would never do things like that..." but remember - this is part of OUR "Christian Heritage"... If we ignore it or brush it off as "Other people's problems" - we won't be able to overcome it.... AND - we won't truly ever gain any "Repentance"....

    See - the Pharisees said Exactly the same thing in Matt 23:29-36... The issue is that they were blind to HOW stuff like that gets traction... Blind to the PROCESS of how they made the mistakes... BLIND because THEY thought they possessed The Truth... Of course - the errors of the past are clear to us now... BUT - the only thing History teaches us is that we don't learn anything from history....

    We are just as blind - we just like to point fingers at everybody else... Instead of Mortification, we make a mockery of "Saved by Faith" - that since you "Believe" - you can do anything you want... Behave any way you want... Impugn, besmirch, abuse, lie, destroy, revel in all sort of flavors of sexual sin and drug abuse, split off another church so we can do whatever we want in our church, and EVEN put the Church's stamp of approval on such things... That because we are "Saved by Faith not Justified by Works" - that any "Good works" are meaningless, so therefore, to be hated or at least made light of.... and we DON'T DO ANY WORKS AT ALL..... We do stuff NOW in the name of God that would make those "Evil Men" practicing Mortification BLUSH and GASP In horror!

    Just as blind... STILL don't see... Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel..... Declare myself Righteous - it's the other guy with the problem.... AND - it's why WE still NEED JESUS... Not just for the Warm Fuzzy feeling - but to be OUR KING.... OUR MESSIAH... to CORRECT the wrong things.... To bring US out of The Curse....
     
    Juk likes this.
  2. Amen borther.
     
  3. #3 Fish Catcher Jim, May 13, 2015
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
    Perhaps it should be said there are those or some but not we for not all are as you are talking about. I was redeemed from the curse when Jesus was raised brother. I can do all things but NOT all things are good for me. Does this not fall into common sense and those who twist this scripture do justify their actions are simply trying to fool everyone as they walk out side the Blessing of God?!

    There are those who take a half hearted approach to their walk in Christ and some do not ever do anything with it or grow in Christ BUT there are many who wont go with out seeking Him and learning to walk by Faith and follow His every word. I am one of these!!

    If Christians spent as much time seeking God as they do trying to prove what is wrong with the church and other Christians we could get this thing done and get home with the Lord. Not that I am in any hurry but come on now........it is not that hard to walk as Christ taught us to walk. All it takes is to BE WILLING TO BE WILLING.......
    GOD BLESS John ; )
    Jim
     
    Lanolin, Cturtle and Juk says Amen and like this.
  4. I agree that it is not that hard if one is willing and a child of God, but guilt and shame and condemnation make the walk many times harder.
     
  5. Ok Juk now listen to what you said here.
    guilt and shame and condemnation make it harder

    Are those attributes of Christ Jesus or God our Creator and Father or even His word ?
    Where do these FEELINGS COME FROM...........Ahhhhhh yea thats right Juk, they are from none other then our enemy the devil................so..................

    It is your choice..........allow him ( the devil ) to put this junk on you and bow to the weight of his ( the devil ) yoke or KICK him OUT of your life and walk as you beleive.....There is now no condemnation for those in Chirst..... ( Romans 8:1 )

    See God did not simply take these yokes of sin and guilt and so forth off of you but He destroyed them so bad they can not ever be used again............BUT the devil likes to bring new fake yokes unto an unexspecting or an un-willing to fight Christian and get them to put them on and bow to the weight of these false yokes.........HEY DID YOU CATCH THAT.............BOW TO THE WEIGHT OF THESE FALSE YOKES......... he is getting you to bow.........bow ? Oh now way bro kick him out and refuse to put on those yokes again.........
    God Bless Juk
    Jim
     
    Cturtle, Juk and Mykuhl says Amen and like this.
  6. If it was that straight forward, Jesus wouldn't have had to constantly warn about getting off the path... Wandering into the ditch.. Warning "Narrow is the door and few find the way" . Paul wouldn't have had to warn about Wolves seeking to destroy the flock... And the book of Revelation wouldn't need to have been written....

    That's what "Building the tombs of the prophets your fathers have slain" is all about in Matthew 3:27-35

    The Prophets were the Righteous men who declared the EVIL DEEDS of our fathers... And our fathers killed them for this... Of course, you READ those prophets - and say.. "Wow, that was a Godly man declaring God's truth...".. So far so good... THEN - the turn.... "I would have listened if I had been around then"

    And Jesus answer: Oh.. Really? What's the EVIDENCE of this... because YOU are NOT listening to the Godly Man I am sending you NOW.... So, NO - in reality, you are YOUR FATHER'S SON... DOING the SAME deeds... Destroying those who bear witness of YOUR evil deeds JUST LIKE THEY DID....

    and we do exactly the same thing... We read the writings of righteous men who came before us.. We read the sermons of famous men ... Certainly, if WE could have been alive then - we would have really changed things... But look - we don't DO ANYTHING in response to the sermons of the preachers and godly men we have TODAY.... Why would we have responded any differently to the call of THOSE men then...

    OR... Certainly - if WE had been alive back then - we wouldn't have been so blind.. We would have been a better judge of doctrine... We would have easily seen through the lies... Not fallen prey to doctrines that NOW seem SO obvious... Mortification, indulgences, penance, rites and rituals, etc...

    But - what about today? Can we see through "Cheap grace", "Do whatever you want" - "Justification by faith = no works" "Prosperity gospel" "Doctrine police" "Destroy all the heretics" "Sexual mischief and divorce ought to be blessed by the church" "The bible contains the word of God" "Gifts of the spirit instead of fruit of the spirit".... The list of bad doctrines is 50x longer now than it was then - yet THEY were the unrighteous ones...

    Then as now... We are no more righteous... We bear witness that our fathers embarrassed, harassed, destroyed, and ignored the Godly men sent to them... And WE do the same today... We ignore those sent to us... If that wasn't enough - we scandalize and mock those.. Run them out of the church... Ignore everything they are trying to warn us about - and even work against them... Ruin their lives and leave them empty shells of the men they could have been....

    But.. It sure is cool to own their collected works...
     
    Mykuhl likes this.
  7.  
    Cturtle and Mykuhl say Amen and like this.
  8. Some of the things you said in here made me lol for real Jim. Especially the pig and grape juice line.....classic![emoji23]
     
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  9. Well it did not leave you wondering what my point was now did it ? lol
    Thanks (y) Mykhul
     
    Mykuhl likes this.
  10. I hope you came up with that line yourself! I will a bit disappointed if you didn't lol.
     
  11. :rolleyes: ummmmm well actually, it's just God in me........
     
    Mykuhl likes this.
  12. Lol....then I am not disappointed at all [emoji1]
     
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  13. ShEw I aM sO gLaD tO hEaR tHiS
     
    Mykuhl likes this.
  14. JohnC, yes, again, motes and eyes.
    Before railing against churches doctrines that we dont agree with, we got to look at ourselves.

    But those who dont belong to either (catholic protestant divide) just find all of the unbiblical,doctrines perpetuated in churches saying they are christian a bit too much. Just cos somone isnt catholic, doesnt automatically make them, protestant.
     
  15. We not meant to be protesting all the time anyway. We meant to be proclaiming the Good News.
    We not meant to be catholic. We meant to be Holy.
     
  16. #16 JohnC, May 14, 2015
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
    Remember... A "Protestant" was originally a "Protesting Catholic" out of the movement started more or less by Martin Luther in the 1600's.... The "Protesting Catholic" or "Protestant" was really a faithful "Catholic" who loved Jesus more than The Pope and wanted The Catholic Church to fix up it's problems.... Even today with many of the "Old line Protestant and Reformed" churches - we see MANY Catholic traditions and teachings.... (That's not a bad thing by the way - throwing out the baby with the bathwater is foolish)

    So YES - there is a LOT of Orthodox Christianity that falls outside of "Roman Catholic" and formal "Protestant"... For example - Eastern/Greek Orthodox is NEITHER Catholic, NOR Protestant... because they didn't form through either Catholicism as understood as the "Roman" European church out of Italy ... AND neither did they protest and split out of such during the 1600's.... You could say the same things of the Ancient order Assyrian churches - which trace their roots back to The Apostles - but were never really part of the Roman church... Messianic Judaism also really doesn't fit the mold of either "Protestant" or "Catholic" very well either...

    But that really wasn't central to my point..... What I was getting at is that there were HORRIBLE things going on as part of "Normal" accepted church doctrine.... We look at it now and Gasp in horror - and we point our finger "Gosh, look at those horrible people.... How could they fall for that..."

    50-100 years ago in the USA - much of Christianity was very legalistic.. focusing very heavily on "External righteousness"..... Now, we look at it and gasp in horror and we point our finger "Gosh, look at those deceived people preaching "another" gospel.... How could they fall for that?"

    But - the important question for us, though... What about today? What about right now?

    Thanks
     
  17. Examples of this are going on all around us today. Just take look at how many Christian demoninations there are...over 42,000! You can find pretty much any "flavour" of Christianity you like nowadays. The division amongst the body is a sad state of affairs.
     
    Cturtle likes this.
  18. Well right now, just focus on your own walk rather than pointing out pitfalls in other peoples.
    If you've managed to get past the pitfalls and stumbling blocks in your own walk, by all means, share your experiences for edification.
    But, you don't need to moan about it all the time, just saying. That does not accomplish anything. Keep your eyes on Jesus.
     
  19. Right now, I'm about to have breakfast. You?
     
  20. Nope... There's no mixing or twisting going on... Every one of the things I mentioned is NOT biblical for one reason or another....
    There are 2 general categories:
    Wrong because they are just plain error....
    Wrong because they base a doctrine on picking and choosing a few aspects of God and eliminating all the other aspects of God's nature that don't fit what THEY want - in effect pagan Idolatry/do-it-yourself Religion with a picture of Jesus slapped on top of it....

    FOR example.... "The bible CONTAINS the word of God" - When you say it CONTAINS the word of God - you are implying that it ALSO contains opinion, history, and error - and thus OUR job as educated believers is to SIFT the wheat from the chaff so to speak..... Reject all the parts of the bible that are Error, history, cultural tradition, and opinion - and KEEP the parts of the bible that are Actual Bona-fide "Word of God".... This ALSO implies that there is Word of God that is NOT contained in the Bible - that perhaps is contained in religious texts of OTHER religions.... This is the primary error driving the doctrinal changes we have recently seen in the Episcopal, Presbyterian, UCC, and Methodist churches....

    On the other hand - when you say "The Bible IS the Word of God" - you imply that the scripture we HAVE now is 100% completely God Breathed as God's Official Authorized Text, and it's THE ONLY written scripture that IS God Breathed.... Thus - The Scripture is CREATED By GOD, not created by Man... As such - we are not at liberty to add or subtract without express authorization from God Himself...

    see how tricky stuff like that is.... Why we gotta be on our guard....

    Another example... Prosperity Gospel.... It says that God wants ALL of His believers to experience MATERIAL prosperity, wealth, and physical health....

    While this is partially true - it's not 100% true at all times inclusive...
    It will most likely be true in The Resurrection...
    Until then, we certainly do not see 100% of pious and faithful believers gifted with material prosperity, wealth, and physical health here on earth....
    What God ACTUALLY promised is the FRUIT of the Spirit: Love, peace, joy, long suffering, compassion, contentment, patience.... This is a statement of your INTERNAL condition - not external condition.... You can be peaceful and joyful while your body is sick and you have no material wealth....
    Jesus himself promises Hate, tribulation, and persecution from the world...
    Jesus himself lived a model of material poverty - and encouraged his disciples to do likewise ("Sell all you have and come, follow me" and "Foxes have holes, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head")
    It ignores that the scriptures declare that we can receive a BETTER resurrection, crowns, inheritances, rewards, and leadership position as a result of enduring Suffering, abuse, and tribulation for the word of God....
    It ignores the teachings in the parable of "The Rich man and Lazarus"....

    Thanks
     

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