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Bigger than the heavens!

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Ramsey, Aug 13, 2008.

  1. Bigger than the heavens!

    Our God is bigger than the heavens !! correct :p?

    I heard somewhere that He holds the whole universe in the palm of His hand. Is that correct?

    So God is so huge lol.. wow :eek:
    Imagine =) No wonder when He speaks the earth trembles (well when He really speaks :p) (other than the still voice of His Spirit :) ) :eek:

    That's just so amazing that it raises so many questions. Is Heaven all around us ? since He holds us in the palm of His hands.

    And it's another Realm. So Hell also another realm that's also huge like Heaven? of course smaller but bigger than universe ?

    Will we be huge also like God ? :p Or Maybe that realm is big period. and this one now small.
    Wow lol these questions are hard. Most answers will be only speculation but let's see what my brothers and sisters think :)

    God bless!!
     
  2. God is omnipresent, so yes ofcourse He's big. :D

    But I don't know if heaven is all around. That is not what the bible talks about. Heaven is said to be a place so, couldn't possibly be all around, or omnipresent like God.

    Hell is in the earth beneath. So it must be really small.

    We will not have the same body's thats for sure. May not be big but will be like God. :D
     
  3. Creation cannot contain the One who created it, He is far to great.
     
  4. [FONT=&quot]Agreed, creation is contained within the creator.[/FONT]
     
  5. You said:
    Do you mean that the impure will be made pure in Hell and fit to be used again in another life ? cleaned and made pure ? to join us in Heaven?

    I believe only the Blood of Christ makes us pure. Not fire.

    Also, do you mean that the earth is the center of the universe?
     
  6. Death and hades are cast into the lake of fire so there is no more death, The torment is eternal so one would assume there is consciouesness . Also the references of weeping and gnashing of teeth imply that there is co0gnative thought- so I see no reason to believe that one will not remember what they did to receive this punishment. Sadly there is no biblical reason to believe that once one is in the Lake of Fire that one would ever escape.

    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.
     
  7. Univac could you enlarge that?
     
  8. Amen Larry.

    But Where is it written eternal fire?
    isn't it Everlasting fire?
    Eternal means that something Always existed such as God and Life and will continue to exist.
    Everlasting means God created something that can exist until He stops its existence.
    (that's what I once read and understood, if I am wrong, please correct me!)
    Also Forever and ever means everlasting. I think once someone studied the "forever and ever" from the Bible and its result was that something started and remained until God stopped it, which was the "forever and ever until I decide." (I = God)

    Either way our memories will be no more of them that will perish :(
    Imagine our loved ones, how sad..

    Also univac what is that Yellowish Lozenge in your drawing, it's more yellow than most, and it's on the top left.
    Could you also enlarge that please as Larry said, it hurts my eyes to look so close on the monitor :p:p

    Univac you did not answer my first question though. The way I read your first post was that by the fire the people in Hell will be refined and fit to be re-used. Re-used would mean to send them to Heaven or the new Earth, depends where we'll be after millennium.
    In hell there is memory, the parable that Jesus spoke about the man in Hell and Abraham I believe in Heaven (If I remember correctly) states that the man spoke and felt the torment. Luke 16:19-31
    Now I don't know if that's a good example :p but still :p
     
  9. I look at it kind of like this:
    Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
    ev·er·last·ing [​IMG]Audio Help/ˌɛv[​IMG]ərˈlæs[​IMG]tɪŋ, -ˈlɑ[​IMG]stɪŋ/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ev-er-las-ting, -lah-sting]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–adjective
    1.lasting forever; eternal: everlasting future life.
    2.lasting or continuing for an indefinitely long time: the everlasting hills.
    3.incessant; constantly recurring: He is plagued by everlasting attacks of influenza. 4.wearisome; tedious: She tired of his everlasting puns. –noun
    5.eternal duration; eternity: What is the span of one life compared with the everlasting? 6.the Everlasting, God.
    7.any of various plants that retain their shape or color when dried, as certain composite plants of the genera Helichrysum, Gnaphalium, and Helipterum.
    [Origin: 1300–50; ME; see ever, lasting[​IMG]]
     
  10. I realize that this is one of those subject that folks generally disagree on and a dictionary will not solve that. I generally do two things when I reach an impasse- I look at multiple translations and compare and I read commentaries. I have found that these men of God who read and write Greek and Hebrew can offer much insight. Still they are not always in 100% agreement their own selves. Below are 23 bible translations on Rev 14:11. Three are translated ages and the rest are translated for ever, evermore,forever. The commentaries I read are more evenly divided

    Rev 14:11

    (ASV) and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

    (BBE) And the smoke of their pain goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, who give worship to the beast and his image, and have on them the mark of his name.

    (Bishops) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth vp euermore: And they haue no rest day nor nyght which worship the beast and his image, and whosoeuer receaueth the prynt of his name.

    (CEV) If you worship the beast and the idol and accept the mark of its name, you will be tortured day and night. The smoke from your torture will go up forever and ever, and you will never be able to rest.

    (Darby) And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

    (DRB) And the smoke of their torments, shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast and his image and whoever receiveth the character of his name.

    (EMTV) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the Beast and his image, and anyone who receives the mark of his name."

    (ESV) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

    (Geneva) And the smoke of their torment shall ascend euermore: and they shal haue no rest day nor night, which worship the beast and his image, and whosoeuer receiueth the print of his name.

    (GNB) The smoke of the fire that torments them goes up forever and ever. There is no relief day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, for anyone who has the mark of its name."


    (GW) The smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast or its statue, or for anyone branded with its name."


    (ISV) The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."


    (KJV) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    (KJV+) AndG2532 theG3588 smokeG2586 of theirG848 tormentG929 ascendeth upG305 for ever and ever:G1519 G165 G165 andG2532 they haveG2192 noG3756 restG372 dayG2250 norG2532 night,G3571 who worshipG4352 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 hisG848 image,G1504 andG2532 whosoeverG1536 receivethG2983 theG3588 markG5480 of hisG848 name.G3686

    (KJV-1611) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth vp for euer and euer. And they haue no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoeuer receyueth the marke of his name.

    (KJVR) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    (LITV) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest night and day, even if anyone receives the mark of its name.

    (MKJV) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

    (Murdock) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and there is no rest, by day or by night, to those that worship the beast of prey and its image.

    (RV) and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.


    (Webster) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    (WNT) And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

    (YLT) and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

     
  11. I'm not sure who once said to look at the word everlasting as "Age-lasting" Which also can mean that it's until God wills it.

    yeah you're right that the dictionary doesn't help in this case, so we must go into Biblical analysis of these two words which I don't think I will do.

    There was a verse though that had the word eternal life for the saved and everlasting fire for the unbelievers. Jesus was speaking, I don't remember where. Jesus used two different words.
    but it all comes down to, "who cares, it's not up to us but our Father, and Hell is real and people will be tormented as long as God wills it"

    Agree or disagree :p?
     
  12. BTW how do you read those ?


    (KJV+) AndG2532 theG3588 smokeG2586 of theirG848 tormentG929 ascendeth upG305 for ever and ever:G1519 G165 G165 andG2532 they haveG2192 noG3756 restG372 dayG2250 norG2532 night,G3571 who worshipG4352 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 hisG848 image,G1504 andG2532 whosoeverG1536 receivethG2983 theG3588 markG5480 of hisG848 name.G3686

    what do the numbers designate ?

    ps: I love those super old translations of Bishop and KJ 1611 and Wycliffe :D
     
  13. Those numbers are keyed to a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.:)

    There is another thing to consider- what were the views of the early Church and the Church fathers on hell:

    [SIZE=+3]The early Church Fathers Speak to us on :[/SIZE] [SIZE=+4]HELL[/SIZE]
    From the Writings of the Early Christians we Come to understand much as they lived far closer to the times of Christ and his apostles then we can ever hope, with this in mind we look to them because the truth is Eternal (constant) it always remains the Same, thus what they have proclaimed let us then hold firm to.
    Ignatius of Antioch
    "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).
    Second Clement
    "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
    Second Clement
    "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (ibid., 17:7).
    Justin Martyr
    "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
    Justin Martyr
    "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
    Justin Martyr
    "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
    The Martyrdom of Polycarp
    "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
    Mathetes
    "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
    Athenagoras
    "[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
    Theophilus of Antioch
    "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).
    Irenaeus of Lyons
    "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
    Irenaeus of Lyons
    "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
    Tertullian
    "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
    Tertullian
    "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12-13).
    Hippolytus
    "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
    Minucius Felix
    "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12-5:3 [A.D. 226]).
    Cyprian of Carthage
    "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
    Cyprian of Carthage
    "Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord ... [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!" (Letters 58:10 [A.D. 253]).
    Lactantius
    "[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding for ever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
    Cyril of Jerusalem
    "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).
    St. Patrick
    "In everlasting punishment they [the soldiers who murdered my new converts] will become slaves of hell along with him [Coroticus], for truly whosoever commits sin is a slave, and is called a son of the Devil" (Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus 4 [A.D. 452

    Church Fathers on Hell

    It is apparent that the leadership in the early Church considered hell eternal.
     
  14. If you Like to do comparison studies Ramsey you can download E-Sword free here:
    e-Sword - the Sword of the LORD with an electronic edge

    This is a freeware resource and is the most awesome bible study tool I have ever used. You can download the main program and then add the modules you are interested in. While they do have programs that can be purchased one can download over a gigabyte of study material free. There are tutorials and one can cross compare 20 or 30 versions at the click of a mouse.:)
     
  15. I am a bit skeptical about Lactantius's words. Either I misunderstand or he has slight traditional beliefs.

    But Wow thanks a lot brother Larry, this does indeed prove it. :)

    I love these old letters, I love the way they preached and spoke with boldness and truth and no fear of what others will think, for they spread the truth.
    Truly how we should all be.

    Thanks for the amazing e-sword program, I will definitely check it out =) seems great!
     
  16. :cool::) You are quite welcome Ramsey!:)
     
  17. Wow what a strange yet amazing picture :) You must've worked a lot on that!! Amen brother, the Lord is our King and Almighty God :)
     
  18. Brother Larry.
    I started using e-sword. I downloaded also Albert's notes lol I am lost but everything is working so far.

    Is there a way to temporarely remove the numbers after each word that are part of the dictionary? just so I can read clearly, and put them back when I need definition ?

    Also, which other commentary do you recommend, and which dictionary do you recommend? I'm using the one that came with it.

    Thanks bro!
     
  19. Thanks Bo,
    They only gave me strong's tab :(
    but which dictionary do you recommend and commentary also? Strong's is a bit hard to read
    and Albert is a bit hard to understand but it's really informative.
     

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