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Bible Discredits Eternal Torture

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by deeezbeats, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. Dead people are Unconscious
    *(NWT)Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten."
    Job 14:22"He feels pain only while he is still in his flesh;
    He mourns only while he is still alive.”"
    *(NWT) Psalms 146:4" .His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

    Lake of Fire is the Second death
    (NWT)Revelations 20:13-15 "And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave (Hell/Hades/Sheol)gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire.This means the second death, the lake of fire.15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."

    Sodom and Gomorrah afflicted with symbolic everlasting fire

    Jude 7"In the same manner, Sod′om and Go·mor′rah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."

    2 Peter 2:6 "And by reducing the cities of Sod′om and Go·mor′rah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come."
    Everlasting fire = Everlasting destruction
    Luke 12:5
    "But I will show you whom to fear: Fear the One who after killing has authority to throw into Ge·hen′na.(Lake of Fire) Yes, I tell you, fear this One.
    Matthew 10:28 "And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na(Lake of Fire)
    2 Peter 3:7".......reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."
    1 Corinthians 3 16:17 "Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple+ and that the spirit of God dwells in you?+17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and you are that temple."
    2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, "
  2. It is probably just me but.............what are you trying to say to us????

    Could you clarify what your intent is?
    xspinningisfun and Charlie812 say Amen and like this.
  3. Well eternal torture seems to be a very popular doctrine when in fact the bible does;t teach it. I'm trying to inform others so they can inform others.
  4. So in other words you are saying that there is no such thing as Hell.

    Then....are you a Jehovah Witness?
  5. Actually hell/hades/sheol is the grave and everyone goes there when we die. The lake of fire on the other hand is the second death. Many bible's improperly rendered Tartarus(prison-like condition for disobedient angels) and Gehenna(garbage incinerator outside the walls of Jerusalem) as hell when it shouldn't have been
    And yes I am
  6. Well that means that you neither believe in Hell or Heaven.

    Your Bible, the New World Translation is the absolute worst translation ever produced so if I were you, I would not even bring that subject up for conversation.

    Yes, the grave is where the flesh/body goes at death.

    Eccl 3:19-20
    “For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.”

    But the spirit goes to heaven or hell depending upon your relationship with Christ.

    2 Corth. 5:8
    "We are confident I say and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord".

    Luke 23:43 .........
    Jesus said to the thief on the cross “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” So Jesus went immediately to Paradise when he died.

    Acts 2:27,31 ..........
    “For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption … he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.” Jesus died and while his physical body reposed in the tomb, he (his soul) went to Hades (the unseen world of the dead). He did not remain in Hades, however. On the third day he returned from Hades, being raised from the dead.

    We see here that Paradise was not the same as Hades, but rather one of two compartments located within Hades. Lazarus died and went to “Abraham’s bosom”. That should correspond to Paradise where the thief on the cross went when he died. The rich man died and went to Hades, but he was in torment and not Paradise. There was a division between the two places, Torment and Paradise, so that no one could pass from one to the other.

    The reasoned conclusion then is that all the spirits of all who died went to Hades, the place of the dead. Some (the forgiven, the just, the righteous) were in a good situation and some (the unforgiven, the unjust, the evil) were in a bad situation. That is because there are varying degrees of punishment.

    One day, Jesus will return to raise the bodies of those who died, both the saved and the lost ("Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” John 5:28,29) and then He will judge all men "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." Acts 17:31).

    The lost (those in the torment side of Hades) will go to their eternal punishment (Hell) but the saved (those in the Paradise side of Hades) will go to their eternal reward in Heaven. “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." – (Matthew 25:46).
  7. Nope i'll keep using the NWT, im sorry if you have bias against it.
    1. 2Corinthians 5:8 Isn't saying that when we die we go to heaven or lake of fire immediately
    2Corinthians 5:10 even tells us our reward is reserved until judgement day "For we must all appear* before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad."

    2. Common misconception. Jesus couldn't possibly have told him "today you will be with me in paradise" because the ressurection didnt occur at that time. Rather he told him, "truly I tell you today," He told him that he would be in paradise with him. When did he tell him? The day they were on the crucifixion pole. Remember Jesus wasn't ressurected until after 3 days. He didn't go to Paradis when he died.

    3. Yes the lazarus and the Rich man parable is a parable and nothing more. HOw do we know this to be a parable? Well for one the bible states that the dead are unconscious Ecclesiastes 9:5 , 1 Thessalonians 4:13"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping (in death,) so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope."
    Also this would mean that just because lazarus was poor he went to heaven and Just because the Rich man was rich he went to lake of fire.

    Rather the Rich Man Represented the Pharisees who were money lovers who were in a unfavored condition with God
    Luke 16:14"Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him."
    While the beggar represented the Average Jews who followed Jesus and became in a favored condition.
    In addition 1 drop of water would be evaporated in a lake of fire. Abraham was mentioned because he was familiar with the Jews Since God established his covenant with him. Noah came before Abraham so It wouldv'e made sense for him to have been the Bosom Possessor instead of Abraham if tooken literally.

    4. Hades is Hell. Lake of Fire is not Hell. Improper translating resulted in the mix-up. It is also said the unrighteous will have a chance to redeem themselves since there's way to many people who never met the teachings of Christianity so it would only be fair
    Acts 24:15 "And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection+ of both the righteous and the unrighteous."
    Revelations 20:12"................The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds."
  8. BIAS??? No. What I said was a fact.
    The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group's doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs. The “New World Bible Translation Committee” went through the Bible and changed any Scripture that did not agree with Jehovah’s Witness theology.

    Jesus said........."TODAY you will be in Paradise". Today is now.
    Correct in that we will all give an account of everything said and done in our lifetime.
    What you are referring to is the "Bema Seat of Christ" and it is for rewards not salvation.

    WRONG and by your comments you have rejected the Word of God.

    Luke 23:43....(KJV)
    "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto the, TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise".

    43And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise".

    And he said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
    43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

    Today ... - It is not probable that the dying thief expected that his prayer would be so soon answered. It is rather to be supposed that he looked to some "future" period when the Messiah would rise or would return; but Jesus told him that his prayer would be answered that very day, implying, evidently, that it would be "immediately" at death. This is the more remarkable, as those who were crucified commonly lingered for several days on the cross before they died; but Jesus foresaw that measures would be taken to "hasten" their death, and assured him that "that" day he should receive an answer to his prayer and be with him in his kingdom.

    Luke 16 is not a parable. It is a real story of real history.
    (1)Jesus never used PROPER names in a parable but in Luke 16 He used Lazarus and Abraham & Moses.
    (2)For another thing, Christ would not have divulged such truths to the unbelieving Pharisees.
    (3)Jesus said, "there was a certain rich man". Was there, or was there not? To say NOT then is calling Jesus, who is God in the flesh a liar.
    (4) Moses, Abraham and the prophets are real people whereas parabels NEVER refer to Old Test. saints.
    (5) Luke does not call this a parable as he did in the 13 other clear parabels.
    (6) It is narrated like real history.
    (7) Parabels deal with the commonplace of what is known to be true to illustrate a moral lesson. This does not.
    (8) Hades is a REALITY not a figure of speech.
    Your explanation is exactly what the JW'S trainers have taught you and it is completely wrong.

    No mix up at all my friend. The only mix up is the way JW'S translate the Bible into lies and errors and distortions.
    Hades is very real. "HADES" is the Greek word for hell. It is NOT the final resting place of the wicked dead un-believers. Hades in the Scriptures consistently refers to the place where the spirits of the un-believing dead go while waiting for the judgment. Judgment will be handed out by Jesus at the "Great White Thrown Judgment" in the Revelation chapter 19. It is then that Hades will become the Lack of Fire.Hades is a place of torment.

    Hell is real because of an incompatible problem. Holy God and un-holy sinners are incompatible, and no amount of time or learning or false translation will ever change that. The rules that govern who goes where have been clearly established by God Himself. Things are the way they are because God is the way He is. That makes them unchangeable because God can not change.

    He said that Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE and no man can come to the Father except by Jesus.

    My advice to you, my encouragement to you is to get ride of that piece of nothing translation, and repent!!! Accept the Lord Jesus Christ as you Saviour and believe upon Him as the God of Creation and the Man-God of eternal salvation.

    Jesus is God in the flesh and He is the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. The sooner you come to Christ the better it will be.
  9. 1.Bible never was wrongfully edited. You just can't see our side of the table so it's reasonable to come to your conclusions.
    2. You see the man on the torture stake told him to remember him when he enters into his Kingdom. By your logic Jesus Kingdom Is located somewhere in Hades. That can't be because Hades is where dead people go. And God lives in heaven.
    3. Jesus assured him he would be with him because of his sincere repentance.
    4. It as very much a parable. No one would ask for a drop of water in a lake of fire. Christ wasn't talking directly to the pharisees at first. verse 14 tells us they were listening and the moment they sneered at Jesus he turned his attention more in their direction
    5. Job 14:13 Job is mentioning that he would want to be in Hades until God's anger passed away. Surely if he was going to be in pain then it seem foolish to want such a thing
    6. Acts 2:27 Here a righteous person tells how God wont leave him in the Grave. So hell is not exclusive to unrighteous. Even Jesus went to Hades for a while before resurrected.
    7. First you said Hades has 2 different parts and now you said only the unrighteous go there.
    8. If you think an all-loving God will roast millions of people for eterntiy over something they did in a lifetime of 80 years All because of a Serpent that couldve just been destroyed then ok.
    8. Before you respond to anything, answer #9-14. I just wanna make sure you're listening to what i'm actually saying.If you Ignore, ill call you out on it.
    9. Ecclesiates 9:5 Say's the living know that they will die, but the dead nothing at all. How can the dead know nothing at all when they are supposedly being torture?
    10. Job 14:22 states you can only feel pain while still alive and in the flesh. So those that are dead can't still be suffering
    11. Psalms 146:4 tell us when our spirit leave our body our thoughts perish. Keep in mind that the context is speaking putting trust of princes and son of man that cannot bring salvation. The fact that this is the context is telling us that these people seem to be unrighteous tells us that even they will be unconscious when dead.
    12. 1Thessalonians 4:13 Paul is telling the brothers not to be worried about those who are sleeping in death. As in unconscious in death. If my mom was in torment in Hades then i'd very much be worried.
    13. John 11:11-14 Jesus compared his friends death as if he was sleeping. Even better if Lazarus was in Paradise when he died the it would be no point in bringing him back to life just to continue living in a world full of sinful people
    14. Since It seems you have an extremely literal approach to the bible in Jude 7 When Sodom and Gomorrah underwent everlasting fire, Is it still on fire to this very day? Welll of course it couldnt be because we know God destroyed it and turned it to ashes yet Jude 7 says they underwent EVERLASTING FIRE
    Please answer #9-14 before anything else and provide scriptures backing up your claim.
  10. Hi, my name is Gene and I'm glad you are here, I have a question that when your people come to my door haven't been able to answer, here's hoping you can.

    Very simplified, ...they told me there is only one god and his name is Jehovah, the talked about paradise on earth, but they were in a hurry and had to leave, left me a magazine and said they would come back, I read their magazine and waited for them to come back and explain more to me, when they finally came back I was intrigued about how they were using their bible so I asked them if I could have one, one of them had an extra copy and gave it to me, told me to start reading in the new testament, I read the first book, then started the second, but found it to be almost the same story, jumped to the third and it was the same story too, so I moved on to the fourth, ...here's my confusion, in the first verse is says the word is a god, when I showed that to them the next time they came I asked them, you have told me there is only one god and his name is Jehovah then how can the word be a god too, ...I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but I can add and one plus one is two, Jehovah god and word god equals two gods.

    Can you please explain that to me?


  11. #11 Major, Feb 15, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
    You have listed 14 items thinking I am at your disposal. I think you should answer a few of mine.

    Do you think you are a Christian?

    Do you believe that Jesus is God?

    Do you believe there is a Trinity?

    Do you believe in one God or many gods according to the NWT of John 1:1.

    What number of the 144,ooo are you?
  12. There is only one ALMIGHTY god And that is the Father Jehovah/YWHW
  13. All I asked was for you to make sure to answer 9-14 if anything.
    I know i'm a Christian
    Jesus is the Son of God Almighty.
    No their is no trinity. Jehovah has no one above him. Jesus on the other hand does Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17
    There is only one ALMIGHTY God. There of course are many called gods. satan is also called a god 2 Corinthians 4:4
    I'm not part of the 144,000 and don't care about being part of it. Paradise on earth is good enough for me.
  14. Sigh..., so then I'm to conclude you can't answer my question raised by reading your bible.

    Thanks for your time (I guess),

  15. If there is no Everlasting punishment, then you don't believe in everlasting life. I won't take the time to discredit all your scriptures as you twist them into a mess.

    Sense you DON'T believe in eternal life then there would be no reason to discuss it with you as your lost anyway.
  16. You didn't answer if Jesus was God in the flesh.
  17. There is more than 1 god. Only one is Almighty
  18. There is everlasting punishment. I never said there wasnt.
    I only said there is no everlasting torture.
    Punishment doesnt always mean torture.
    Timeout for kid's isnt torture.
  19. No he is not.
  20. Cool, thank you, so what do these other gods do, is it like greek or roman mythology with Zeus or Jupiter as the chief god and the rest are subordinates?


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