Beginning of Sorrows: The start of the Great Tribulation

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Brother_Mike_V, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. NOTE: This is not a 'rapture date' or 'Christ's return' date thread.

    This is not a rapture date post: nor is it an argument as to when Christ will return. The intent of this thread is to examine what scripture says will be the beginning of the tribulation period. Therefore, I am posting scripture first and noting an idea afterwards. Please do not turn this into an exposition of the ‘rapture’ and Christ’s return. I know this will be extremely difficult as they are all intertwined and folks get in a tizzy about post -v- pre millennialism etc…

    Please note: I am posting the following scriptures as the main points of discussion; as I am not a huge student of ‘prophecy’ in the bible; I am willing to concede there are other more telling scriptures that will either support or disprove the idea I will post at the end. I feel there are numerous accounts in scripture that I feel will back up my final opening post; but I need to do further research into the context of said scriptures.

    Please read: Matthew 24 and Mark 13:

    Matthew 24: (See also Mark 13)

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) *A

    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.**B
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:***C
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    · A: ‘When ye therefore shall see’ implies that the Church will observe this event.
    · B: ‘in the field’ implies a harvest time or at least a time of work in the farming (agro) fields. ‘return back to take his clothes’ implies a state of unpreparedness: not ‘Knowing” that they will have to “flee”/ normal work day.
    · C: Christ commands us to pray for a pre-winter flight
    KingJ likes this.
  2. #2 Brother_Mike_V, Sep 8, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2015
    Please read Luke 21:

    Luke 21:

    11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. *A
    12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.*A
    13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. **B
    14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: **B
    19 In your patience possess ye your souls. **B
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. *A
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. *A
    29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; ***C
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. (See Also: Matthew 24:32 & Mark 13:28)***C
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. *A
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. *A
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.**B
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.**B
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ****D

    · A: Implies that the Church will be persecuted and witness tribulation.
    · B: Christ is telling us to be prepared of spiritual battle.
    · C: Is Christ implying that signs of the beginning of sorrows will be made known the preceding summer?
    · D: This does not say that the entire ‘Church’ will miss the tribulation period.
  3. Please read Revelation 6 & 7:

    Revelation 6: *A

    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Revelation 7:*A

    1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
    2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
    3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    · A* Implies God’s people will witness tribulation
  4. The overall idea of this thread is to highlight several points:

    · God gave us Scripture to know what was going to happen before His return in Christ.
    · Christ forewarned us to be prepared for spiritual battle in time of tribulation(s?).
    · Christ fulfilled the ‘feasts’ and in doing so set the stage for future events around God’s appointed times and calendar (Probably needs to be discussed in a different thread but the relevance is pivotal to understanding to this discussion)
    · Christ did not specify the ‘day and hour’ of His return; however he clearly gave us forewarning of the ‘beginning of sorrows’.

    The Word of God clearly states that believers should be prepared to deal with the final tribulation before Christ’s return: and he gave us the conditions of which will be observable. I believe Christ gave us warning that there would be signs starting the summer before the start of the tribulation period, and that the 'great' tribulation period starts during ‘harvest time’ (September-ish) on our current calendar.

    Probably the first couple of arguments here will be A: chronology: I don't see that the chronological order of things is out of place in this; and B: 'things have always been going on this way' etc, etc...Have they? I believe we are are in unique period of time (which sounds somewhat redundant, but I think you get what I mean).

    Am I saying that this September is the beginning of sorrows? I quite frankly don't know. But I believe that it is a good possibility. And I believe that the Church will be here for at least the start of it, and I believe that many will loose faith / heart; but this is part of God's weeding out process as much as I don't like the idea of it....
  5. I wouldn't call it "weeding out". Remember that God would prefer that all were saved. The difficulty is that people rarely take their faith seriously, or feel need for real faith, unless they are waist deep in alligators (so to speak). Here in the US, we have had the opportunity for easy, lazy, "Jesus is my buddy" Christianity for the better part of 70 years. That is not the type of belief that saves.
    Folks need a wake-up call. If God needs to rattle the windows to do it, so be it. If even a few get the message it was well worth the try.

    a bit of history to emphasize the point

    The Island of Cuba was in need of deep spiritual reform, so the Pope, knowing of Father Anthony Claret’s holiness and virtue, ordered him to the island, and made him the Archbishop of Santiago on May 20, 1850. Within a few years his extraordinary example of poverty and piety many of the people converted, however some would not listen or appreciate the gift that was given them in the extraordinary person of Archbishop Claret. And so God gave them a sign---It was 8:30 in the morning of August 20, 1853 that the worst earthquake in Cuba’s memory struck Santiago. Everyday for several weeks one merciless aftershock followed another, even as many as five in a day shook the city and the outskirts in a siege of terror that left no structure spared of devastation. Only with the presence of their saintly Archbishop could the people of Santiago bring forth the hope for deliverance from this awful scourge. Many began to beseech Anthony for his intercession and he did, in fact, stop at least one erupting tremor by pressing his holy hand to the ground. However he knew by Divine inspiration that the earthquakes were God’s will and he stated: “God does with many of us as does a mother with a lazy sleeping child,” the saint explained. “She shakes his bed to wake him and make him rise. If that fails, she strikes him. The good God does the same with His children who are sleeping in their sins. He has shaken their beds that is, their houses by the earthquakes, but He spared their lives. If this does not awaken them and cause them to rise, He will strike them with cholera and pestilence. God has made this known to me.” Even so, many seemed to forget his prophecy. Scarcely a month passed, when cholera broke out, spreading with the speed and horror of an inferno. The saint happened to be away on a preaching mission and he hurried home to attend to his stricken flock, praying and working with every means for their spiritual and bodily welfare. Within three months the plague claimed nearly three thousand lives, that is, one-tenth of Santiago’s population. And while the reality of such human misery pained the blessed Claret, he had the far greater comfort of knowing that with the help of his faithful priests, reportedly not one life was lost without the consolation of the last sacraments.
    autumn oddity and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  6. It's very easy to know when the tribulation starts with this verse:

    *[[]] KJV* And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

    One week is seven years. It's also called two sets of 42 months (or 7 years) or two sets of 1260 days (or 7 years). The tribulation starts with the one week covenant (7 years) with Israel with the the Antichrist and at the same time the two witnesses appear who preach for 1260 days are killed by the Antichrist and lie dead for 3.5 days while the world celebrates. From that day Israel is to flee to the mountains where a place is prepared for 1260 days and then the Lord returns.

    *[[]] KJV* And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    *[[]] KJV* And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    If the covenant is 7 years long and 1260+1260=2520 or seven 360-day years then you know the trib starts with the covenant on CNN and the arrival of the two witnesses.
    KingJ, Grant Melville and Major says Amen and like this.
  7. Oooops!!!!!!! There it is! Abdicate is 100% correct! For there to be a 7 year peace treaty there must 1st be a War.

    Look at the Middle East. It is a powder keg.

    Syria is fighting in Iraq. Saudi Arabia is fight in Sudan. The Turks are fighting in Syria. The USA is fights in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Russia invaded Georgia and nothing happened. They have positioned themselves for an invasion of the Middle East.
  8. Many have spoken about Psa 83 as the next war. Certainly Isaiah 17 must happen as well.
  9. Yes sir. I have always thought that Psalms 83 will be the 1st Gog and Magog war.

    Exekiel 38:1-6
    "And the word of the Lord came to me saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog.
    I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army,horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords; Persia, Ethiopia and Put with them, all of them with shield and helmet; Gomer with all its troops; Beth-togarmah from the remote parts of the north with all its troops—many peoples with you."

    And then in 39:9...........
    "Then those who inhabit the cities of Israel will go out and make fires with the weapons and burn them, both shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears, and for seven years they will make fires of them."
  10. Time will tell :)
    Major likes this.
  11. Don't you think, though, that even the heightened threat of war and/or annihilation of Israel would be enough for a peace treaty to arise as the one spoken of in Daniel?
    Softly and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  12. That too :D
  13. Maybe it would but I really don't think so down deep in my heart.

    It is a well know fact that Israel has Nuclear weapons. It would be my thinking that they do not believe that the "threat" of annihilation would be effective.

    I maybe wrong but from what I have seen from the nation if Israel in the last several conflicts is that they are very determined and will only stop when they get what they want.
  14. That is always the key to Prophetic truth isn't it??? Time!
    KingJ and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  15. @Brother Mike V

    Hi there,

    Another interesting thread.

    Scriptures referred to so far
    Matthew 24/Mark 13
    Luke 21
    Revelation 6 & 7
    Daniel 9:27
    Psalm 83
    Isaiah 17
    Ezekiel 38:1-6; 39:9

    * Brother Mike V's findings have been made in reference to the Church, but I associate the tribulation with Israel.

    Watching with interest.
    In Christ Jesus
    Grant Melville and Euphemia say Amen and like this.
  16. Indeed it is called the time of Jacob's trouble, not the Bride's trouble.

    *[[Rev 22:17]] KJV* And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    Grant Melville and Euphemia say Amen and like this.
  17. Agreed Chris.
    The Church is Raptured at the start of the Tribulation and the remaining 7 years are concerning God dealing with Israel.
    Grant Melville, Euphemia and Abdicate says Amen and like this.
  18. Hi Abdicate,
    Thank you for responding.

    Yes, Jeremiah 30, is one of several which speak of that day, isn't it? When the natural seed of Jacob, will suffer,
    'as a woman in travail'.

    'Alas! For that day is great,
    so that none is like it:
    it is even the time of Jacob's trouble;
    but he shall be saved out of it.

    In Christ Jesus
    Grant Melville, Abdicate and Euphemia says Amen and like this.
  19. Thank you, @Major, for responding,

    I won't pursue the subject, here, of the 'rapture'. However isn't it the last three and a half years (spoken of as, 1260 days, or 42 mths) which is called, 'the great tribulation'. (Matt.24:21; Rev.2:22; 7:14; Daniel 9)?

    In Christ Jesus
  20. #20 Complete, Sep 10, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
    @Brother Mike V,
    Hi Mike,

    When reading, 'When ye therefore shall see', we have to remember that all through the approx. forty years of the record of the book of Acts, there was the expectation that Christ's return was imminent, and if Israel had repented, and acknowledged Him as their Messiah, He would indeed have returned. So those to whom Christ spoke these words, could have been alive and remain unto His coming again (1 Thess. 4:15,17).

    With the final rejection by Israel, at the end of that period (Acts 13:41,42/28:23-28; Isaiah 6:9,10) however, the door to national repentance was closed, and Israel became Lo'ammi, or, 'not my people' (Hos. 1:9,10), and all associated with them, the covenant blessings etc., went into abeyance. and will remain so until they see Him whom they have pierced and repent (Zech.12:10).

    These words were spoken by the Lord Jesus, in response to the questions asked by His disciples (Matt.24:3), and it is to them, his brethren in the flesh, that He spoke. It is to them also (men of Israel) that these words of prophecy apply.

    In Christ Jesus

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