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Baptized With Holy Spirit And Fire!

Discussion in 'Holy Spirit Baptism and Living' started by FieryOne, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. FieryOne

    FieryOne New Member

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    What is the Baptism of Holy Spirit and Fire? I submit some thoughts below, and welcome any feedback.

    Matt. 3:10-12 reads:

    "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

    Here we see that the baptism of Holy Spirit and Fire involves the burning up of the chaff with unquenchable fire. The language here is the same language used of "Hellfire" throughout the 4 gospels. So it is evident that to be baptized with fire is to be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Indeed, Jesus described His own death on the cross as a baptism of fire (Luke 12:49-50), and so it becomes evident that the second death is none but the death of the second Adam. To be baptized with fire, then, is to be crucified with Christ (Romans 6:4). It is to have the lusts of the flesh crucified; it is to have the wood. hay, and stubble consumed in the Holy flame of God (1 Corinthians 3:15).

    Thoughts?
    #1
  2. Glomung

    Glomung Well-Known Member

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    And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees.
    A person is warned of their sin.
    Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    The unrepentant are damned to Hell.
    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
    Jesus will follow and baptise with the Holy Spirit, the reference to "fire" here is not explained and to state that it means one thing or another is pure irresponsible speculation.
    His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    Jesus will seperate the good from the bad (wheat from chaff), put the good in His home (wheat in the barn, saved in Heaven), and put the bad in Hell (chaff in the unquenchable fire). When reading scripture remember to compare one phrase with those that have the same sense or content in other areas.

    You interpretation involves several notions not supported by the meaning of the text.
    #2
  3. FieryOne

    FieryOne New Member

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    Glomung, thanks for the response.

    I'm not sure why you say that the referent of fire is unclear. The fire is explicitly said to be the unquenchable fire of Hell which burns up the chaff. Where is the irresponsible speculation in this? Moreover, it is quite clear that the fire is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit (e.g. Isaiah 4:4, Hebrews 12:29).

    Jesus indeed will separate the good from the bad (wheat from the chaff), as He separates the good from the bad within all of us (1 Cor. 3:15).

    What notions am I entertaining exactly that are not supported by the meaning of the text? I'd happy to dig deeper with you. God bless.
    #3
  4. Glomung

    Glomung Well-Known Member

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    The fire is explicitly said to be the unquenchable fire of Hell which burns up the chaff.
    No it is not. The notion that a saved person will be baptised by hellfire goes against the rest of scripture.
    You must compare your notions to the entirety of scripture, not just your personal thoughts on a single sentence.

    You are stringing bits of scripture together that have nothing to do with each other than that the word "fire"
    is in them. The saved don't get burnt with hellfire, period.
    #4
  5. FieryOne

    FieryOne New Member

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    I wrote:


    Glomung replied:
    Let's take another look:

    Matt. 3:10-12
    "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
    His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

    It is quite obvious that the same fire is in mind throughout this passage.


    I disagree. Revelation says that believers will not be hurt by the second death, but it doesn't say they will not experience the second death. Think of the men in the fiery furnace who "had no hurt" (Dan. 3:25). They were in the fire, yet the fire did not hurt them.


    I am aware of this, thanks. Bible study is nothing new to me.
    I have suggested the connections in the OP. Can you address what I wrote? Let's discuss these passages individually and see if they do or don't fit together. Sound good?
    #5
  6. Glomung

    Glomung Well-Known Member

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    It is quite obvious that the same fire is in mind throughout this passage.
    Only to you.

    Revelation says that believers will not be hurt by the second death, but it doesn't say they will not experience the second death. Think of the men in the fiery furnace who "had no hurt" (Dan. 3:25). They were in the fire, yet the fire did not hurt them.

    The "second death" is damnation (i.e. going to Hell) so it's bloody obvious that the saved are not going to Hell, otherwise they aren't saved. Again you take scripture that has nothing to do with the issue and bring it in to play.
    Dan. 3:25 has nothing whatsoever to do with Matt. 3:10-12.

    I have neither the time nor the patience to discuss every permutation of scripture that I know will be tossed my way.
    I only wished to point out that you were drawing conclusions that are not supported by scripture. A habit that is understandable, but all too common these days and is the cause of most of the sillier heresies that plague the modern protestant church.
    #6
  7. FieryOne

    FieryOne New Member

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    Glomung,

    So you think that v. 11 talks about a different fire than the fire spoken of in v.10 and v.12? That is a counter-intuitive reading, to say the least. I'd be interested in hearing you out on this. There obviously is a connection between the fire of v.11 and the fire of v. 10 and v.12. What do you suppose is the connection?

    The saved are not going to Hell, that is correct. They have already gone to Hell by dying with Jesus, which is why the second death will not hurt them.

    Merely asserting that I am mistaken is not tantamount to demonstrating that I'm mistaken. I'm not interested in being told I'm right ot wrong; I'm interested in being shown how I am right or wrong. If you are not interested in discussion, then there simply is no need for you to respond here.
    #7
  8. Glomung

    Glomung Well-Known Member

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    The saved are not going to Hell, that is correct. They have already gone to Hell by dying with Jesus, which is why the second death will not hurt them.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong!
    You are just not getting this. The saved will NEVER SEE OR EXPERIENCE HELL. The have not " gone to Hell by dying with Jesus".
    They did not "die with Jesus". They will not experience the second death at all.

    Where do you get this stuff? Not from the Bible certainly.

    This is what scripture has to say on the issue.
    A person lives. Said person dies (the first death) . After their physical death they are judged by God.
    After judgement they go to one of two places, Heaven or Hell. Heaven is "Eternal Life", Hell is the "second death".

    If you can't grasp this, I strongly suggest you go speak to a pastor of a major denomination (i.e. Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.) about your miscomprehensions.
    #8
  9. FieryOne

    FieryOne New Member

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    Are you not familiar with the Biblical truth that we are raised with Jesus only after dying with Him? See Romans 6:4, for starters. Obviously we have different understandings of the Hell texts in the Bible. I have noted your disagreement. There is no need for you to further assert that you disagree. On the other hand, I'd more than welcome an actual analysis of my exegsis.



    Nay, the second death is the destruction of death itself (Rev. 20:14). Yes indeed, the baptism of Spirit and fire is the swallowing up of death in victory (1 Cor. 15:26).
    Oh, I get it..I just don't agree that it is Biblical.
    #9
  10. FieryOne

    FieryOne New Member

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    Glomung, in case you missed it the first time:

    So you think that v. 11 talks about a different fire than the fire spoken of in v.10 and v.12? That is a counter-intuitive reading, to say the least. I'd be interested in hearing you out on this. There obviously is a connection between the fire of v.11 and the fire of v. 10 and v.12. What do you suppose is the connection?
    #10
  11. covered_by_grace

    covered_by_grace Active Member

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    Just a thought...

    I assume by your posts, FieryOne, that you believe this fire is actual fire. (smoke, flames, soot, etc.) I believe the same, because that's what it says; however, I pose this question to you: Could this actual fire be some type of actual fire, besides actual Hell fire? Perhaps REFINING fire, which is quite actual! Though there are not (usually) physical flames, the refining fire of God's Holy Spirit, is quite a fire and burns up the chaff in our lives. Maybe a type of spiritual fire?

    The Greek Concordance says THAT word πυρί (pyri) translates as "fire" in Matt 3:11 and 12. This word (pyri) occurs 17 times in the New Testament and means the same every time it is used: actual fire (see below)

    Matthew 3:11 N-DNS
    BIB: ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί
    NAS: you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
    KJV: Ghost, and [with] fire:
    INT: Holy and with fire​
    Matthew 3:12 N-DNS
    BIB: ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ
    NAS: up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    KJV: the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    INT: [the] chaff he will burn up with fire unquenchable​
    Matthew 13:40 N-DNS
    BIB: ζιζάνια καὶ πυρὶ κατακαίεται οὕτως
    NAS: up and burned with fire, so
    KJV: and burned in the fire; so shall it be
    INT: weeds and in fire is consumed thus​
    Mark 9:49 N-DNS
    BIB: πᾶς γὰρ πυρὶ ἁλισθήσεται καὶ
    NAS: will be salted with fire.
    KJV: shall be salted with fire, and
    INT: everyone indeed with fire will be salted and​
    Luke 3:16 N-DNS
    BIB: ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί
    NAS: you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
    KJV: Ghost and with fire:
    INT: Holy and with fire​
    Luke 3:17 N-DNS
    BIB: ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ
    NAS: up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    KJV: he will burn with fire unquenchable.
    INT: [the] chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable​
    1 Corinthians 3:13 N-DNS
    BIB: ὅτι ἐν πυρὶ ἀποκαλύπτεται καὶ
    NAS: it is [to be] revealed with fire, and the fire
    KJV: by fire; and
    INT: because in fire it is revealed and​
    2 Thessalonians 1:8 N-DNS
    BIB: ἐν πυρὶ φλογός διδόντος
    KJV: In flaming fire taking vengeance
    INT: in a fire of flame awarding​
    Hebrews 12:18 N-DNS
    BIB: καὶ κεκαυμένῳ πυρὶ καὶ γνόφῳ
    NAS: and to a blazing fire, and to darkness
    KJV: that burned with fire, nor
    INT: and having been kindled with fire and to obscurity​
    2 Peter 3:7 N-DNS
    BIB: τεθησαυρισμένοι εἰσὶν πυρὶ τηρούμενοι εἰς
    NAS: are being reserved for fire, kept
    KJV: reserved unto fire against
    INT: treasured up are for fire being kept to​
    Revelation 8:8 N-DNS
    BIB: ὄρος μέγα πυρὶ καιόμενον ἐβλήθη
    NAS: burning with fire was thrown
    KJV: burning with fire was cast
    INT: a mountain great with fire burning was cast​
    Revelation 14:10 N-DNS
    BIB: βασανισθήσεται ἐν πυρὶ καὶ θείῳ
    NAS: and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone
    KJV: with fire and
    INT: he will be tormented in fire and brimstone​
    Revelation 15:2 N-DNS
    BIB: ὑαλίνην μεμιγμένην πυρί καὶ τοὺς
    NAS: mixed with fire, and those
    KJV: mingled with fire: and
    INT: glass mingled with fire and the​
    Revelation 16:8 N-DNS
    BIB: ἀνθρώπους ἐν πυρί
    NAS: to it to scorch men with fire.
    KJV: men with fire.
    INT: men with fire​
    Revelation 17:16 N-DNS
    BIB: κατακαύσουσιν ἐν πυρί
    NAS: and will burn her up with fire.
    KJV: her with fire.
    INT: will burn with fire​
    Revelation 18:8 N-DNS
    BIB: καὶ ἐν πυρὶ κατακαυθήσεται ὅτι
    NAS: and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord
    KJV: with fire: for
    INT: and with fire she will be burned for​
    Revelation 21:8 N-DNS
    BIB: τῇ καιομένῃ πυρὶ καὶ θείῳ
    NAS: that burns with fire and brimstone,
    KJV: which burneth with fire and brimstone:
    INT: which burns with fire and brimstone​

    Personally, I subscribe to the notion that He wrote some verses in such beautiful style that they can sometimes mean something physical AND simultaneously mean something metaphorical or theoretical - without losing an ounce of its meaning.

    God bless you as you endeavor for HIS TRUTH!!
    #11
  12. Glomung

    Glomung Well-Known Member

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    You are intentionally butchering scripture too suit your own notions.
    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    It could not be any more plain.

    I won't argue with you as it is obvious that you are not willing to listen.
    #12
  13. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi , and we have to look always at the verb tenses in Matt 3:11 and will just comment on the " shall Baptize/Baptizo " in the last part of the verse .

    #1 , There is a Near View in Matt 3:11 that happens in Acts 2:1-6 which is a Prophecy from Joel 2:28 .

    #2 , But Pentecost is short lived as the King is Killed , Acts 2:36 and Israel will be set aside .

    #3 , But it also has a FAR VIEW as express in " shall BAPTIZE " which is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , which is to HAPPEN during the Tribulation Period ,

    dan p
    #13
  14. Aenon

    Aenon Member

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    Are you guys seriously arguing about one of the most clear texts in the Bible?

    Baptism of the Holy Spirit = Regeneration to the Elect ----> Christians
    Baptism of unquenchable fire = Corruption of Reprobate (Hell) ----> Non-Christians

    The verse is talking about the separation of wheat from chaff. It is very simple, please don't warp the scriptures.
    #14
  15. Mark White

    Mark White New Member

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    We haven't yet discussed this verse (1 Cor 3:15) at the end of your first initial post. This would seem to be a key verse we need to consider with respect to a "baptism of fire." Why would Jesus associate this baptism of fire with the baptism of the Holy Spirit if it didn't also have something to do with the saved believer. Perhaps a saved believer with a soul and mind that hasn't yet been sufficiently renewed enough to be suitable for the kingdom of Heaven. Unclean thoughts and unclean works of the flesh need to be burned up in "the Holy flame of God."

    One thing that may perplex some of us is that on one hand it's easy to be saved (John 3:16 and Romans 10:9) which implies even a child can comprehend the Good News ... "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9. However, at other times the words of Jesus are rather harsh and to the point that his followers wonder how anyone can be saved. "Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.' ” Matt 19:26 This would seem to be referring to a born again Spiritual experience.

    You Must Be Born Again

    “How can this be? Nicodemus asked.You are Israel’s teacher, said Jesus, and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" John 3:9-12


    Is it possible that there is a difference between being just saved enough to get into Heaven and those born again Spiritually mature believers without spot or wrinkle having an undefiled garment.
    #15
  16. Aenon

    Aenon Member

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    Romans 6:4 has NOTHING to do with hell. "Dying with Christ" is a figure of speech for "denial of self" and thus a "laying down one's life for his friend." That has NOTHING to do with physical death or hell. No Christian goes to hell. Read any orthodox pastor's exegesis and they will agree with me.

    1 Cor 3:15 is in an entirely different context, so why would you assume it is referring to the Baptism by fire in Matthew? "Fire" for the believer is not the baptism of fire, nor is it hell. It is ALWAYS referring to trials and chastisement. Job 23:10 explains the imagery of a refinery for a beleiver. That is NOT baptism by fire. The contrast in Matthew is between believers and unbelievers.
    #16
  17. Glomung

    Glomung Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps, maybe, seems like. These are the terms that lead to sloppy thinking and if followed to far,
    to heresy. The Devil has always been the master of "maybe", don't play his games.
    #17
  18. Xian Pugilist

    Xian Pugilist Inactive

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    Just adding my thoughts to the consideration.... not making proclamations.
    #18
  19. Xian Pugilist

    Xian Pugilist Inactive

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    You added.....
    .....of Hell .....
    ....to the unquenchable part. That is presumptive on your part. COULD be the case, but no reason to assume it is, and you DECLARE it is, which is eisegetics, not exegetics.


    #19
  20. xino

    xino New Member

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    *first of all...who is saved? one who reads John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 or one who follows the laws of the bible?
    *dying with Jesus is actually true and spiritual. Same way his blood washes away our sins and protects us. These are spiritual things the human mind cannot understand nor grasp (dying does not mean water baptism, for people who think of this)

    Eternal Life is not actually "living forever", it is getting to know Father and Son in relationship.
    I used to think Eternal life means living forever but it makes no sense because
    Flesh-->Soul-->Spirit
    When Flesh dies is the first death. (soul is obviously our thoughts, minds)
    Spirit cannot die! Because it has no physical form, due to the fact that the body is dead therefore spirit/ghost is unhurtable or undying. Therefore spirit is already living forever or having eternal life.
    Which would render the whole "who so ever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life" concept senseless.



    on topic
    And Baptism of Holy Spirit and Baptism of Fire are different.
    We get only 1 baptism in a life time. As Ephesians says 1 God, 1 church, 1 baptism, 1 Father, 1 body etc
    Baptism of the Holy Spirit are for ones who will share life (eternal life) with God and Son together in relationship
    Baptism of Fire for people who will be punished for their works/building


    In fact I was just looking into this baptism of fire.
    It is the same fire God will use to cleanse this world 2 Peter 3:7-12

    Also Catholics are saying there is Purgatory and using 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 as evidence (we all know there's no purgatory).
    But what that scripture was saying to me is that, even though people who believe that "Jesus is Lord" but do not worship him in spirit but live on their own life, like the Parable of Sower of the seeds that fell on rock and thorns.

    Jesus said so himself that all the people Father gave to Jesus and Jesus will NEVER drive away. Meaning people who were called by Grace, to know and believe in Father and Son, Jesus will not forsake.

    But for Christians who only live for their life and not for the Lord. After the tribulation aka Harvest.
    Before Jesus creates the New Earth, he will destroy the old creation with Fire.

    People who build on their Rock-Jesus- foundation with gold, silver, straw, wood etc. Will be tested by the fire
    Romans 15:22

    As we can see Romans 15:22+1 Corinthians 3:10-15 Are talking about preaching the Gospel.
    When you preach the Gospel, you lay the foundation of Jesus Christ to that person or country, spiritually or figuratively you are building a house.

    When the Gospel has been preached, you have built the Rock foundation of the house! Keep following the Law to successfully build a good house.
    Luke 6:46-49

    Now no one can build upon this foundation house with gold, silver, straw, hay, wood etc (worldly things, worldly information, corruption and teachings). Because you are living your own life and not of God.

    When Judgement day comes, although you started to build on Jesus foundation, therefore Jesus will baptise you will his fire that will cleanse you and test your foundation works. If the house you built survives, you will be rewarded and join Heaven or New Earth.

    If you foundation built on gold etc upon Rock fails, you will be saved. Unfortunately you will have to go through the painful fire!
    #20

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