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Baptism In The Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Jacoj, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

    The promise

    Joël 2:28-29, “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.”

    Many desired the presence of God throughout the ages. In the old testament, the ark was the symbol of his presence and the temple was a place where his presence was searched. Today God’s spirit will be present in every believer. In earlier times, His Spirit was only ratified on certain person such as kings, judges and prophets. But now, His spirit will be upon all flesh, your sons, daughters, old men, young men, servants and handmaids. This will empower them to prophesy, dream dreams and see visions. Let’s look at Luke 24:49:

    “And now I will send to you what my father has undertaken to give you, but do not go from the town, till the power from heaven comes to you.”

    Our primary task as Christians is to be a witness for Jesus and to preach his word. It places a huge responsibility on the shoulders of believers to know that God wants to use us. It is essential that the full meaning of Jesus' Preaching, his miracles, his death and resurrection are fully understood. Jesus promised to empower believers as God promised. The Holy Spirit will empower believers. Let’s look at the next section of this Bible study.

    The fulfillment

    Acts 2:4, “And they were all full of the Holy Spirit, and were talking in different languages, as the Spirit gave them power.”

    Acts 2:1-13 deals with the filling of the Holy Spirit. Immediately after the spirit was poured out, the believers began to glorify God's name. Let’s look at another verse.

    Acts 10:44-46, “While Peter was saying these words, the Holy Spirit came on all those who were hearing the word. And the Jews of the faith, who had come with Peter, were full of wonder, because the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles, And they were talking in tongues, and giving glory to God. Then Peter said,”

    The Holy Spirit was poured out on Jews and non-Jews. Jews were people from Israel and non Jews were people from other parts of the world. The Holly Spirit was therefore poured out on everybody. Let us take a look at the next section.

    The Purpose

    Acts 1:8, “ But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

    When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you’ll receive power to be a witness unto Christ Jesus in this world. The next verse in this section is 1 Corinthians 14:2-4.

    “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.”

    You will also speak in an unknown language unto God which is unknown to men; you will speak about mysteries wisdom. When speaking in tongues you’ll edified and build up your own spirit. Let’s look at Jude 20.

    “But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,”
    Another purpose of being baptized with the Holy Spirit is when praying in tongues you build up your faith.

    Conclusion

    Mathew 3:11, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

    Jesus baptize us with the Holy Spirit to equipped us to be a witness unto Him in all the world.
     
    Jake and Rusty say Amen and like this.
  2. Joel's prophesy was not fullfilled in Acts IMO.

    Joel is speaking and looking forward to the Tribulation Period and not the formation of the church in Acts.

    The "sign gifts" were given to the apostles at the beginning of the Church Age so as to authenticate their position as spokesmen for Christ. It was the basis for their ability.

    Notice in Joel 2:28 the word......."AFTERWARD".

    The context of Joel has been about the Day of The Lord which is the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

    Joel introduced the phrase and then explains what is going to happen.

    It is then proper IMO to understand that Joel is speaking of the time after the Great Tribulation so that God will then pour out His Spirit on all flesh.
     
    th1bill and Mr. Darby say Amen and like this.
  3. Nice tight little theory, Major and Mr. Darby, about Joel... however:

    Peter SAID in Acts 2:16 that "But THIS this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel...." and said zip about anything future....Or was Peter deluded and Scofield and Darby right?

    Was there instant ability to speak foreign languages in Acts? Yes...In Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost.

    Were their dreams and visions from God in Acts? Yes....Peter and Cornelius (and Cornelius was not even saved yet)

    Were their "your daughter prophesying"? Yup..."Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. "

    Now Major: You may recall that I am not a Charismatic by any stretch of any imagination. "Tongues" as taught by Pentecostals has no similarity to what happened in Acts for me.

    However I will take Peter over Darby, Scofield or their followers any day.
     
    Jake and Jacoj say Amen and like this.
  4. I don't see that the statement as necessarily meaning fulfillment. If you read it one way it could indeed be taken as "This ( that is, event taking place) is that which is spoken by Joel". Or you could take it in the sense of "This (meaning the following quote) is what Joel said in his book". I take it as the latter for the reason that the sun did not go dark, the moon did not turn to blood. Not to mention no blood, fire or vapor, dreams or visions. But Israel was at the end of the 69th week, so the 'end time' message of Joel was very relevant. (There may have been a partial or preliminary fulfillment at Pentecost, however, as the spirit was poured out on the Apostles.) Had they accepted Christ at that time, He would have soon returned and the times of refreshing would have began. Acts 3:19-21

    'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.'

    Had they repented as Peter called on them to do, they would have soon saw the (full) events of Joel's prophecy fulfilled in that day.

    That isn't Darby or Scofield. That is Peter.
     
    Major likes this.
  5. Darbyite, spin, Mr.Darby, IMO....The events that were happening, the other events I pointed out in Acts are the "THIS" Peter was talking about. Clear as a bell.

    I showed Peters vision, so you're mistaken.
    I showed Cornelius' vision as per Acts 10:3, and involving a non-Apostle. 2nd mistake
    You ignored the Dad and his daughters in Acts 21:9 that prophesied (mentioned by Joel), also non-Apostles. 3rd mistake
    The sun did go dark: Read Luke 23:44, 45....Fourth mistake.

    Now if you are suggesting DUAL application (not rejecting what DID happen as Peter was proclaiming and you and Major appear to be doing) you may have a leg to stand on...However the way Major wrote it and what YOU agreed to is not what the Bible states.

    Spinning to defend Darbyism is not a good thing when presented with facts
     
  6. None of these things happened in Acts 2. Luke 23 was before the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. Visions occurred throughout the OT. People prophesied all through the OT, and prophesy was to soon disappear with the completion of the canon. All of the described events cannot be demonstrated to have occurred anywhere in the NT, much less in Acts 2. And Joel's prophecy was that the Spirit would be poured upon ALL flesh. That didn't happen anywhere in the NT.

    'And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh.'

    As I said, I will admit to a partial fulfillment as a possibility. The complete fulfillment will not be seen until the end of the age. I guess we will simply have to disagree.
     
    Major likes this.
  7. The problem is that Major, whom you agreed with did not say a thing about dual application. That was my first red flag.
    Then you claimed
    which you will have to prove DID NOT happen....and did not happen only to the Apostles...Don't you accept the Word on what I showed you?

    But at least you admit partial and or dual fulfillment...that's a relief.

    As to Joel saying "all flesh"....Are you stating that before Christ returns every human on earth will be part of the pored out Holy Spirit....everyone?
     
  8. Agreed.

    Of course religionists have always tried to make the Scriptures say what they want them to say. If we read the next verse of Acts 2 which is verse 17 we see............

    "And it shall come to pass in the last days saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh and your sons and daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams".

    "It shall come to pass----meaning, it shall happen. The things these men were seeing had been declared by Joel as "coming to pass in the last days".

    IN Acts 2, what was seen was out pouring of the Spirit onto the Jews in Israel but Joel and Peter who quotes him says "ALL" flesh.

    Of course "upon all flesh" does not mean every individual. That is a silly thought is it not when we consider the context of the complete Word of God.

    It means every class or rank of men. On the day of Pentacost didn't the Holy Spirit come to the world to indwell in the hearts of ALL who believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ.
    All persons who believe upon Him for the remission of sins.
     
  9. It is certain that only a small number of people in the Apostolic age had the Holy Spirit poured out on them. Whether it is literally every individual, or men of all classes, I admit that I am not sure, but I tend to incline toward the most literal interpretation. I do agree with Major in that I don't think this prophecy could really be called fulfilled here. By the way, that is not necessarily a Dispensational view. Some Dispensationalists would agree with you. This is one of those passages of scripture that I don't feel that I have everything worked out as of yet, but I am certain that the real fulfillment is yet to come.
     
    Major likes this.
  10. To be helpful. In Daniel the bible, there has been a popular chart made by many bible students. They can be found online by looking for Daniel's prophesies. Pentecost is the beginning of the church which is within the age of Christ. that is the only age there is. the tribulation is a part of the age of Christ and he will establish his throne on earth. Said that to show age of Christ is the New Testament. Acts 19: confirms that they hadn't heard that there be a receiving of the Holy Spirit. That is after Pentecost. He the Spirit is there but not received after being born again. the Spirit of God is with the new believer. They have to ask for the gift of the baptism with evidence of tongues.

    In Revelations there is going to be a large bunch of people who will be saved and the Holy Spirit will be poured out on them also. To receive the baptism is to receive the kingdom of God within you. Jn. 14:17.

    The key is that Jesus he will go away, but not leave them without the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:45 w/ Jn. 16:7

    hope I have been helpful.
     
    Jacoj likes this.
  11. How is that "certain"? Can you prove it was?
    The the fact that it was poured out on fisher-folk, taxmen, Roman centurions, women, young girls, Greeks etc. that it was not confined to national Jews, hence great diversity.

    What amazes me is you guys seem to suggest that Peter was mistaken for even quoting Joel: why bring it up, THEN? What other prophecy did he or anyone (besides the Lord) quote from that was linked to a current event can you find in the NT?

    Stick with your partial or dual fulfillment and we could agree: down grade what Peter says, and the evidences I offered later in Acts, and we cannot.

    Whether some dispensationlists understand this or not is of little concern to me; they are not a cohesive group on much, IMO, keeping the ones here from jumbling up the first postings of a new member is my concern.
     
  12. History indicates that the early church was a "small flock" as Jesus said it would be. Anyway, I wasn't trying to jumble up anyone's thread. I never said anything about Peter being mistaken, nor do I believe Major thinks that. I believe you have not understood much of what I have been trying to say here and I don't know any other way to explain what I am trying to get across. I think it is safe to say that we are worlds apart in how we approach scripture. We are pretty much talking past each other.
     
    Major likes this.
  13. Never mind...."Other worlds"...Sure appears that way.

    That's my problem with Darbyism, I've studied it for a long time and inevitably disciples of that system cannot see anything but their own views...Oh well....I try.
     
  14. I understand where you are coming from. I can understand your logic, and don't find it unreasonable that you come to the conclusion that you do. I just think another view fits the facts better. That is what I have tried to present, but I don't think I have presented it well enough for you to see what I am trying to say. That can be the problem when people approaching the scriptures from two totally different vantage points are trying to discuss anything. That is where charity and forbearance must come in.
     
    Major likes this.
  15. Can you? It's nice that you would say that.

    But that "other view" is your acceptance of two men's ideas (on the whole, especially if you are still a Plymouth Brethren of some stripe or other), which folks who fall under their shadows think that they are either arguing for God or upholding orthodox doctrines better than "others".

    Charity and forbearance are good if they are acted upon and not merely touted, don't ya think?
     
  16. After the Pentecost from which 120 received the Spirit, later we see 3,000 souls were added to the church. 1Cor. 12-14
    tells exactly what all the members did. The operated in the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit. including tongues.
    Today many won't have that baptism is because they are afraid of persecution and what others would say.
    I have been personally in many homes to fellowship with Christians who have the baptism and they aren't interested in the world but love bible study. Sometimes have been with a group from 6PM till 3AM because the Spirit of God blesses the bible study so much. Not like going to church on Sunday to hear get saved only messages. Or begging for money, or teaching unbiblical things. What is a bible study if not based on the truth.
    Another thing we never argued or tried to appear better than everybody else.
     
  17. My friend....Could you take Paul's word for something?
    You say there were 3,120 Spirited infused Christians?
    Could they be the ONLY ones in the early church?

    What is your opinion about this claim of the same writer as your 1 Corinthians verse?:

    By who?

    I say there were man many more empowered Christians in the early church that ever God recorded by anyone...including the prisoner Paul.
     
  18. Just so you know, I used to hold your view on this issue. My change of view was brought about by personal Bible study, not someone else's ideas. I don't even know where Darby stood on this issue. I have read a bit of Darby in the last several years, but I am far from being an expert in all things Darby, there being very much of his material I haven't read. I do respect him because I have found that in his writings he has much in common with what I hold to. I have only been affiliated with the brethren for a couple of years. I ended up there partly because of my Dispensational ideas (and partly because that was where I felt God wanted me to go serve him.) after I left the Mennonite Church, but my Dispensationalism had nothing to do with any association with them. (I largely consider myself non denominational, but do tend definitely toward Fundamental Baptist and Open Brethren type thought.) From the time I started studying the Bible 25 years ago, I have never saw any reason to take it in any other way than I would take any other speech. I have devoted considerable time to studying issues of Hermeneutics lately, but have never seen any reason to abandon the common 'plain sense' method of interpreting. I think it naturally leads to a Dispensational view, and some anti-dispensationalists will concede that point.

    Yes, I think tolerance and forbearance are good if acted upon. I am trying hard to do what I can from my end to end the strife that has existed between us, and engage in respectful and peaceful discussions.
     
    Major and Rusty say Amen and like this.
  19. Thank you....clear testimony.

    I used to be a dispensationist and my studies over the decades showed them to be wooden, rigid and dualistic. And you are right...there are many mutant dispensationalist views!
    Darby and Scofield, if one deeply researches their teachings , my astound you. I am not surprised that you "found" them, as their footnoted Bibles and influence in America is HUGE, bridging almost the entire Protestant world. You cannot escape their shadow, thanks to Moody, Dallas Theological Institute and more now than a billion $ book industry.

    I have, as a young man, been through many denominations, but not any Anabaptist sect at all, though I respect Mennonites as Christians.
    I own over 1,000 Christian books in paper and twice that on PDF, that span all denominational bands, the majority of which I have read through.
    I do not fear reading Christian views different from my own, as God always preserves my path in spite of what I read.
    I am confident He will guide me, not any number of popular or unpopular denominational "leaders" or authorities.

    Thank you for your efforts to be respectful and impersonal in your new posts: makes a big difference.
     
  20. The single biggest Dispensational influence on my thought was Clarence Larkin, followed by a number of lesser known contemporary teachers of the Independent Baptist variety. But, really, most of my views have been finally shaped by my own Bible study, though Larkin influenced me in youth, and gave me a framework to start building my own thoughts on. I have discarded a number of Larkin's ideas that I found to be unbiblical. In particular, I do not see the Rapture in Matthew 24 as he did; also, I would class the Tribulation as a dispensation unto itself, though overall, I am in general agreement with him.

    As to Scofield, he has had little influence on me. I never owned a Scofield reference Bible until a few years ago, but, like my other study bibles, I only use it as an occasional reference tool. I prefer to study from a plain reference Bible. For a number of years, I shunned studying other men's comments at all. I went for an extended period of time studying only with a KJV and a Cruden's Concordance. (I did also use some basic tools such as Bible dictionaries, ect. on occasion, as well.) I wanted to give myself some time to study the Bible on it's own without being affected by preconceived notions picked up from others. I really attempted, during my study, to try and let the Bible comment on itself, comparing scripture with scripture. I did come to some new views about some things, but my theology became more intensely Dispensational during that time. I would recommend that path of study to a serious Bible student. It can be most enlightening to get alone with God and his word without others coming in between. Not dissing men who are called to teach through books, but I think the Holy Spirit and the word are the best teachers. Of course, recently, I have begun avidly reading other men to compare my studies with theirs. I do find that Darby was a kindred soul. I find much agreement with him, and I want to study him more in the future.

    Like you, I also see the value in reading opposing opinions. I make time to read other ideas. I like to understand where others are coming from, even if I don't agree.
     
    JustPassingThru and Major say Amen and like this.

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