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Baptism in the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Holy Spirit Baptism and Living' started by Jeffin, Oct 2, 2009.

  1. Baptism in the Holy Spirit

    I have been recently baptised in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of other tongues. I can now pray with more boldness and power so much that it affects the area and people around me. This has been a topic we usually close due to its seemingly controversial nature. I have now opened a seperate forum for us to discuss this subject so each one of us can understand and experience the power of God in our lives.
     
  2. Thank you for your participation here.

    I feel like this is one of the most important topics we will have on CFS. :smiley90:

    This is not from my personal study but yesterday some friends of mine and I got together and watched two sessions about the Holy Spirit by John Bevere and God really spoke to my heart direct because I could relate to some of the experieces he was talking about. I loved that session and felt that I must get CFS members to hunger of the power of God and his spirit.

    Anyway, from what I understood. Tongues is the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit which Paul emphasises on at various places in the scripture. Acts 2:33 - Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. The spirit is very creative. According to John Bevere the tongues and gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:30 (Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?) is really about gifts of the spirit for a public ministry. There is the tongues when we speak in someone else's language for someone else's edification and the tongues which appears to be gibberish which is actually a heavenly language for our personal edification. The second type is important that we all receive it because it enables the Holy Spirit to rise us up on God's level and communicate with him rather than God coming down on our level and limiting what he can do through us. It does not make sense to our mind as spoken in 1 Corinthians 14:14 - For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

    I am not saying that we are not saved if we dont receive the tongues because I know a lot of preachers including my granddad who did not receive the tongues but let so many people to Christ through public preaching.

    I am saying this because I know what I have experienced is so true that thrice I fell down under the power of God. Twice in public and the other time when I was communicating alone with God in my room. The experience was too awesome to put into words. :)
     
  3. Praise God!!!!
    Jeff that is so amazing and glorious of our Father! If it be the will of the Father, i will be soo happy to recieve the Holy Spirit! A sister of mine recieved that blessing a few weeks ago and her relationship just seems so different and more focused! But, I am so happy for you, many blessings brother,
    val
     
  4. Here's what happened to me before and after I received the Holy Spirit. I am copying this from a pm I sent to a member here:

    I got the tongues at our Church youth camp. I didn't go there expecting something and honestly I was hesistant to go because I thought it was a bit expensive for me and plus I had to take a few days off work. During one powerful worship session our leading pastor asked us to come forward and ask God for the gifts. I told God that me being there at that moment was not my idea and that it was His so I asked Him to do with me what He wishes to do. That was when I started shouting and speaking in tongues. We got into smaller prayer groups and while I was praying a friend of mine fell. I could also see lots of other people falling down and praising God under His power.

    I fell under the power during a smaller prayer session. Ever since that happened, most times I pray I immediately get a strong feeling of being gripped and being light. Physically my heart beats faster, my face vibrates and I start crying. The thing that grips me is something I have never experienced before so I know that it is the Holy Spirit taking over. Okay so thats what happens sometimes when I pray now.
     
  5. Jeff,

    How absolutely wonderful for you. Praise the Lord! :bow:

    Many years ago I struggled with similar experiences, but God told me,
    "Experience is the power and the authority of your testimony.
    No one can take it from you, but many will try to discredit it."

    It is my responsibility to not let anyone discredit God's hand in my life.

    I wouldn't share any of my "unexplainable" or "questionable" experiences for fear no one would believe me,
    but God made me realize that I was stiffling His testimony through me.
    He made me realize that no one can ever take away the experiences we have,
    but many people can sure try to discourage us from even believeing they happened in the first place.

    I am so happy for you to have this experience.
    Being baptized in the Holy Spirit (to me) is much more than just speaking in an unknown tongue.
    It is enhanced power and ability to hear that still small voice of the Spirit at just the right time.
    It is enhanced power and ability to do the works that God instructs us to do.
    It is enhanced faith and trust in God.
    Like you said . . .
    Our minds cannot always understand what the Spirit is saying.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. I discovered the same thing when doing some writing on the Holy Spirit. And next realised that "filled with the Spirit" is used more times than "baptism in the Spirit".

    The description at Pentecost itself was "filled with the Spirit". Acts Ch 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    "Filled" then continues to be used throughout Acts: 2:4, 4:8, 4:31, 5:3, 9:17, 13:9, 13:52, along with some occurances of "baptised".

    Though I more often use "filled" (solely because it was used for Pentecost and continued through Acts), I can't see any particular difference between these two expressions, and feel that we should all feel free to use either/both (rather than most using solely "baptised") to express this highly important and absolutely essential aspect of our life in Christ.

    Seems to me that what's needed is for us ALL to be FILLED with/BAPTISED in our wondrous, ever-present, power-giving, gift-giving, God-revealing, Scripture-revealing Holy Spirit (and more...!!!)

    May it be so for all here on CFS!

    - BM
     
  7. Thankyou, so much, LJ!

    I hardly ever get to write outside of my two threads (cos of major time and health restrictions). While resting tho, I was thinking about better words I should have written about our amazing Spirit - like 'Jesus-revealing' rather than 'God-revealing', even though both are fine, and I call Him my Scripture revelator (and that IS a real word!) instead of 'Scripture-revealing' - cos I just LOVE how He has become the One Who reveals what I've not before seen/understood in God's Word! Whoo-hoo!!!

    Without the Spirit of the living God, nothing of any value would be happening in my life...

    If I can find time I should write about the weird/strange/confusing/funny way years ago that I got filled with the Spirit then received the Gift of Languages, lost this - and later regained it!!

    Blessings Jeff and you guys - great thread!!

    - BM
     
  8. This is the ultimate thread. :)

    I think God is and will be doing this around the world of Christianity. I think it has everything to do with why Im in the church I am in.
     
  9. Hi everybody,
    i have read what you have all said and you are all very enthusiastic to speak of this, and I was just wondering if someone could answer me somethings about this as I have been searching the Scriptures on this topic. I apologise if it's a bit much (I used some Greek), but I am also studying the Greek language of the Scriptures and I hope I have explained what I mean in the questions when I use a reference to it... This 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' doesn't add up for me...
    (Please read in red first)

    1) Can someone please tell me where 1Cor 12:30 ["Do all speak with tongues?" ESV] fits in with this whole idea of 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit'. Especially because it is a Greek 'slanted question' (beginning with "μη"), meaning; the answer is an obvious "no". 1Cor 12:10 implies only a select group can. Not all.

    2) Can someone please tell me where Eph 4:4-5 ["there is...ONE baptism" ESV] fits in...

    3) Can someone please tell me also how it can be justified to say that the incident in Acts 2:4 has anything to do with angelic tongues (1Cor 13:1 is the only mention of an angelic tongue). The Greek word in itself has nothing to do with an angelic Holy Spirit talk, but simply a tongue is the Greek way of saying 'a language' (γλωσσα). Exampled in Acts 2:5-13 where it states (ESV) "men from every nation under heaven" were there. They obviously spoke different languages. So the Holy Spirit gave them ability to speak to all those languages there as it says "each one was hearing them speak in his OWN language" and "how is it that we hear, each of us in his own NATIVE language?" and "we hear them telling in our OWN tongues (languages)". It is clearly not speaking of angelic tongues... so why is it always used as such? If a new Church was getting started, why would God choose to use something that does not edify them (1Cor 14:4) to kick it off?

    4) Can someone explain to me please why the other examples that were listed above from Acts are strong evidences... Acts was establishing the church and a historical narrative... isn't that like... taking the Sinai event and saying well... God isn't on this mountain because that's (the Sinai event) what is looks like for God to be dwelling on a mountain. But doesn't Isaiah 6:3 make it clear that "the whole earth is full of His glory! (ESV)" and Psalm 139:7 questions "Where shall I go from your Spirit?, or where shall I flee from your presence?"... So, therefore a historical book may need comparison to the other more theological (LESS historical) books to see the core theological truths (other NT letters)... I looked and found verses which seem to indicate that the Holy Spirit comes upon giving your life to God (also think…the baptism of Jesus was the beginning of his formal 'ministry' - so very symbolic coming of the Holy Spirit at his water baptism). See Eph 1:13 + 1 Cor 12:13 + Rom 6:3-4, + Eph 4:4-6...

    5) Logically... how could one be spiritually formed more like Jesus without the Holy Spirits power? If the tongues/Holy Spirit baptism is true, then people are useless until this. Why would God do that?


    This is not a doctrinal attack or debate. You all seem to testimony this ability, but I cannot personally see how it is Biblical unless these things are addressed. All I'm asking is for answers to these. Scripture is not contradictory. These are my concerns. This is not a small doctrinal difference, this is a VERY important point and if it cannot be justified in Scripture here, then I will stick clear from it. All I'm asking is that you justify your claims with Scripture - shouldn't be hard if it is truth, just answer those questions for me, please...


    Verses that need addressing are:
    1Cor 12:30, 1Cor 12:10, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:4-6, Acts 2:5-13, 1Cor 12:13, Rom 6:3-4



    Now this is a side note. But...

    There is a book called "Prepare For War" by Rebecca Brown (1987, Whitaker House, New Kensington)



    I don't necessarily agree with everything in this book, but Chapter 12 (p171) is called 'Testing the Spirits In Christian Churches' and it has a story of a girl Lea (not her real name) whom through the laying on of hands from a renowned speaker received tongues (knocked backwards with burning feeling in her stomach). She was previously said to have been grieving the Holy Spirit when a previous attempt by her Pastor had failed... But now she felt she was a good Christian now it finally worked. "Troubles started almost immediately. She had continual stomach and intestinal problems" + "she began having difficulty hearing the Lord speak to her" + "she was completely unable to maintain a clear mind long enough to read the Bible for more than a minute or two at a time". Realising that she probably had received a demon of false tongues, she was asked to start speaking in tongues (by the author of the book) because she could do that better than normal praying. As she was speaking the author of the book said "You spirit speaking through Lea in tongues, in the name of Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour, I command you to tell me, what do you have to say about Jesus and which Jesus do you serve?... Lea was horrified when cursing started coming out of her mouth" (Quotes from page 177)

    "Lea had allowed a man whom she did not know to lay hands on her, and then she accepted what had happened to her without testing the spirit she had received" (177) and overlooked 1Tim 5:22 and 1Jn 4:1-3
    "Tongues, This is probably the area where Satan has had the greatest success in our day. Christians have made the terrible mistake of assuming that ALL tongues are from God"

    Clearly from this not everything that is supernatural is from God, as Satan can also do signs and wonders to try to deceive even the "elect" (Matt 24:24).


    In love for your soul,
    Luke.
     
  10. Hi New2Christ,

    It is great that we have the same Dad. Amen!

    I just want to encourage you, you already have the Holy Spirit within you. As soon as you gave your life and trusted in the Lord, it happened.

    As it is written: (ESV) Eph 1:11-13
    In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, *who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

    In other words. The Holy Spirit baptised (immersed) you when you first believed in (Trusted in [πιστευω]) Him.



    Not all people are given the gift of tongues. 1Cor 12:30




    :) have a great day in the Lord


    with love for your soul,
    Luke.
     



  11. Hello Hrt4Christ,

    just reading your entry here and I can see that you are passionate, but this could be a little misleading if taken the way it is written...

    ..."What shall we do?"
    (Acts 2:38) - [ESV]
    "Peter said to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for [εἰς = used here as a 'in relation to' preposition] the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"


    It is not outlining as order of getting something, but rather saying...

    Repent (turn from your sins/change your mind) and be baptised (a physical drama of what happens spiritually when you become a 'believer') and once you do this you will receive the Holy Spirit. = synonymous with believing (Eph 1:13)


    Kindest regards and love,
    Luke.
     
  12. Quotes from post by LukeLuke:

    Hi everybody,
    i have read what you have all said and you are all very enthusiastic to speak of this, and I was just wondering if someone could answer me somethings about this as I have been searching the Scriptures on this topic. I apologise if it's a bit much (I used some Greek), but I am also studying the Greek language of the Scriptures and I hope I have explained what I mean in the questions when I use a reference to it... This 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' doesn't add up for me...
    (Please read in red first)

    I'll do my best to respond to some of your queries (but as I'm unwell cannot promise any follow up, i.e., trusting some of below may at least help you a little.)

    First, let me say that logic can only get you so far when seeking to understand the Scriptures. Christianity is predicated on faith rather than logic. I've said many times in my Messages here in The Inner Room that in the Word of God you may well find two things that are contradictory (insofar as 'logic' is concerned) but which ARE both true at the same time!! This is because the Bible IS the Word of Almighty God Himself.

    1) Can someone please tell me where 1Cor 12:30 ["Do all speak with tongues?" ESV] fits in with this whole idea of 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit'. Especially because it is a Greek 'slanted question' (beginning with "μη"), meaning; the answer is an obvious "no". 1Cor 12:10 implies only a select group can. Not all.

    I suspect Paul is just speaking the simple truth that not every Christian who is filled with the Spirit of God speaks in tongues. Tongues is also a gift. 1 Corinthians 12:10. You may feel this contradicts some of the material in Acts. And per se it does - or appears to. Yet all of it is part of the Word of God and is true and most of all IS understandable to the serious Believer.

    2) Can someone please tell me where Eph 4:4-5 ["there is...ONE baptism" ESV] fits in...

    Without spending a long time looking for Scriptures for you, this is partially symbolic, but also quite factual - referring to us being "Baptised into Christ". Galatians 3:27. Becoming one in Him. Even becoming one with Him. You could sort this out by searching the 'baptised' words in the NT.

    3) Can someone please tell me also how it can be justified to say that the incident in Acts 2:4 has anything to do with angelic tongues (1Cor 13:1 is the only mention of an angelic tongue). The Greek word in itself has nothing to do with an angelic Holy Spirit talk, but simply a tongue is the Greek way of saying 'a language' (γλωσσα). Exampled in Acts 2:5-13 where it states (ESV) "men from every nation under heaven" were there. They obviously spoke different languages. So the Holy Spirit gave them ability to speak to all those languages there as it says "each one was hearing them speak in his OWN language" and "how is it that we hear, each of us in his own NATIVE language?" and "we hear them telling in our OWN tongues (languages)". It is clearly not speaking of angelic tongues... so why is it always used as such? If a new Church was getting started, why would God choose to use something that does not edify them (1Cor 14:4) to kick it off?

    There's a quite simple truth that explains a lot of this: Pentecost where they were filled with the Spirit, tongues of flame, etc., etc., was very different from the gift of tongues God has given me and others. If I were to speak in public no one would know what I was saying - thus different from Pentecost, where by miracle God enabled what came from the disciples' mouths to be heard and understood by different language speakers. There's no record in Scripture that this ever happened again.

    The next tongues you come to even in Acts, is the same as my gift today.

    4) Can someone explain to me please why the other examples that were listed above from Acts are strong evidences... Acts was establishing the church and a historical narrative... isn't that like... taking the Sinai event and saying well... God isn't on this mountain because that's (the Sinai event) what is looks like for God to be dwelling on a mountain. But doesn't Isaiah 6:3 make it clear that "the whole earth is full of His glory! (ESV)" and Psalm 139:7 questions "Where shall I go from your Spirit?, or where shall I flee from your presence?"... So, therefore a historical book may need comparison to the other more theological (LESS historical) books to see the core theological truths (other NT letters)... I looked and found verses which seem to indicate that the Holy Spirit comes upon giving your life to God (also think…the baptism of Jesus was the beginning of his formal 'ministry' - so very symbolic coming of the Holy Spirit at his water baptism). See Eph 1:13 + 1 Cor 12:13 + Rom 6:3-4, + Eph 4:4-6...

    I may not quite understand what you're saying here. Yes, the Holy Spirit can come and fill you ('Baptise you in' - same thing) when you've: 1. Repented of all your sin which you've committed against a perfect and Holy God (SERIOUS!!!), and then: 2. Believed in Jesus as the (sole) One through Whom this sin can be forgiven - "believing" meaning committing the whole of your life and the rest of your life to Him (not just a 'head' belief).

    The next step after those two above would normally be: 3. Baptism in water (which has some reality of connection to the section above), and you could expect to: 4. Be filled with the Holy Spirit. If not, you may and should pray to be filled.

    5) Logically... how could one be spiritually formed more like Jesus without the Holy Spirits power? If the tongues/Holy Spirit baptism is true, then people are useless until this. Why would God do that?

    Please know that I am a HIGHLY logical person. That's how I think and live. But as mentioned, NORMAL human logic will not do for the Bible. That's NOT saying that the Scriptures are illogical. No way! You have to recognise that this is no ordinary Book about an ordinary subject. Here God Himself is speaking to man. HE IS GOD! As God He will decide what to tell you, and how to tell you. He will do it His way. We have to fit in with Him!

    You see, a major part of SIN is rebellion - man's rebellion about what God says, what He demands, and Who He is. We can query what God's said or done. He graciously allows us to do this!! (amazing, hey!) But at the end of the day we must fit ourselves into Him - certainly NOT the other way round!

    To address your query. When a person REPENTS (seriously so, or it's not repenting at all) and BELIEVES (ditto), then the Holy Spirit comes into that person to bring him or her from death to life, from darkness to light, and so on. That person is then born again of and by God's Spirit, and becomes a son of God, and a member of God's Kingdom. BUT... he is not (necessarily) yet FILLED with the Spirit. That is, he surely can do some things in the Christian life, but will be at the very least curtailed as to what.

    Thus getting filled with the Spirit via the 4. steps I wrote above is very important - because THEN you have "access" as it were, to all of God's power in your life.

    I hope that's "logical" and explanatory. *smile*


    As for your section at the end of your post, you're absolutely right. There are literally millions of church people believing they are Christians who think you've been baptised in/filled with the Holy Spirit who are not, and almost as many believing their tongue speaking is from the Spirit when is is not. VERY, VERY SERIOUS! Satan can and does imitate/counterfeit the work of the Holy Spirit. (And it's possible that a high proportion of these same people, sure they are born again of the Spirit, but once again they are not. *many, many, many tears.......*) Their Pastors will answer to God for leading them astray.

    God bless you heaps!

    - BM
     
  13. Original quotes from LukeLuke in Black
    Response from Bondman in Blue
    THIS RESPONSE in RED

    Thankyou Bondman for your reply, and I appreciate the time you spent to do that. My further comments are in red...I've made bold the quotes I am responding to in each section and put a reference number to link the appropriate response...


    Hi everybody,
    i have read what you have all said and you are all very enthusiastic to speak of this, and I was just wondering if someone could answer me somethings about this as I have been searching the Scriptures on this topic. I apologise if it's a bit much (I used some Greek), but I am also studying the Greek language of the Scriptures and I hope I have explained what I mean in the questions when I use a reference to it... This 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' doesn't add up for me...
    (Please read in red first)

    I'll do my best to respond to some of your queries (but as I'm unwell cannot promise any follow up, i.e., trusting some of below may at least help you a little.)

    First, let me say that logic can only get you so far when seeking to understand the Scriptures. Christianity is predicated on faith rather than logic. I've said many times in my Messages here in The Inner Room that in the Word of God you may well find two things that are contradictory (insofar as 'logic' is concerned) but which ARE both true at the same time!! This is because the Bible IS the Word of Almighty God Himself.

    1) Can someone please tell me where 1Cor 12:30 ["Do all speak with tongues?" ESV] fits in with this whole idea of 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit'. Especially because it is a Greek 'slanted question' (beginning with "μη"), meaning; the answer is an obvious "no". 1Cor 12:10 implies only a select group can. Not all.

    I suspect Paul is just speaking (1)the simple truth that not every Christian who is filled with the Spirit of God speaks in tongues. Tongues is also a gift. 1 Corinthians 12:10. (2)You may feel this contradicts some of the material in Acts. And per se it does - or appears to. Yet all of it is part of the Word of God and is true and most of all IS understandable to the serious Believer.

    (1) = So, by this confession, tongues is therefore NOT the sign of the Holy Spirit filling.

    (2) = Just with regards to this... I do not find a contradiction between these, but rather, I found the contradiction when others would say that the filling of the Holy Spirit requires tongues

    2) Can someone please tell me where Eph 4:4-5 ["there is...ONE baptism" ESV] fits in...

    Without spending a long time looking for Scriptures for you, this is partially symbolic, but also quite factual - referring to us being "Baptised into Christ". Galatians 3:27. Becoming one in Him. Even becoming one with Him. You could sort this out by searching the 'baptised' words in the NT.

    3) Can someone please tell me also how it can be justified to say that the incident in Acts 2:4 has anything to do with angelic tongues (1Cor 13:1 is the only mention of an angelic tongue). The Greek word in itself has nothing to do with an angelic Holy Spirit talk, but simply a tongue is the Greek way of saying 'a language' (γλωσσα). Exampled in Acts 2:5-13 where it states (ESV) "men from every nation under heaven" were there. They obviously spoke different languages. So the Holy Spirit gave them ability to speak to all those languages there as it says "each one was hearing them speak in his OWN language" and "how is it that we hear, each of us in his own NATIVE language?" and "we hear them telling in our OWN tongues (languages)". It is clearly not speaking of angelic tongues... so why is it always used as such? If a new Church was getting started, why would God choose to use something that does not edify them (1Cor 14:4) to kick it off?

    There's a quite simple truth that explains a lot of this: (3)Pentecost where they were filled with the Spirit, tongues of flame, etc., etc., was very different from the gift of tongues God has given me and others. If I were to speak in public no one would know what I was saying - thus different from Pentecost, where by miracle God enabled what came from the disciples' mouths to be heard and understood by different language speakers. (4)There's no record in Scripture that this ever happened again.

    (3) = this confirms the fact that was stated before, that this 'tongues' (as it is referred to today) is in no way a sign of filling of the Holy Spirit as here is an example of otherwise - at least different to an angelic tongue

    (4) = just on this, similarly as there is no record found in Scripture that this 'type' of tongues is used again (though there are so many testimonies of this happening TODAY on the mission field!), the same is said about an angelic tongue... Not in one place does it explain what it means by tongue. From silence you could equally (and probably more!) argue that every one of these events were another one of the events at Pentecost - human tongues/languages. Especially on this basis... Acts 10 when the Holy Spirit first descended on the gentiles there was sign of tongues which caused Peter to say about it "who have received the Holy Spirit JUST AS we did" (Acts 10:47 NASB) - Therefore, the sign of tongues was the same (JUST AS) as Pentecost, which is again Peter's argument in Acts 15 at the council of Jerusalem when he says the same testimony (15:8-9)... then the sign of tongues seem to be almost more for the JEWISH SCEPTICS more than for the receiver so that they can see that God shows no distinction and as He fell on them at Pentecost (human tongues), so to the same way the Scriptures state He fell on the Gentiles. From this it is a stronger case that the tongue uses in Acts are human! Not saying they all were, but there is more Scripture behind that. If that is the case, then the 'tongues' (angelic) that some would say are the sign of the filling of the Holy Spirit today are simply... wrong.


    (5)The next tongues you come to even in Acts, is the same as my gift today.

    (5) = ... the next use of tongues is from Chapter 10 (there is no substance to your claim).... see above comment on (4)... and the other is chapter 19... If Chapter 19 is the only thing holding up a doctrine of tongues (especially all the evidence pointing the other way!!!) being the sign to all believers, then I fear for those who hold to it.

    4) Can someone explain to me please why the other examples that were listed above from Acts are strong evidences... Acts was establishing the church and a historical narrative... isn't that like... taking the Sinai event and saying well... God isn't on this mountain because that's (the Sinai event) what is looks like for God to be dwelling on a mountain. But doesn't Isaiah 6:3 make it clear that "the whole earth is full of His glory! (ESV)" and Psalm 139:7 questions "Where shall I go from your Spirit?, or where shall I flee from your presence?"... So, therefore a historical book may need comparison to the other more theological (LESS historical) books to see the core theological truths (other NT letters)... I looked and found verses which seem to indicate that the Holy Spirit comes upon giving your life to God (also think…the baptism of Jesus was the beginning of his formal 'ministry' - so very symbolic coming of the Holy Spirit at his water baptism). See Eph 1:13 + 1 Cor 12:13 + Rom 6:3-4, + Eph 4:4-6...

    (6)I may not quite understand what you're saying here. Yes, the Holy Spirit can come and fill you ('Baptise you in' - same thing) when you've: 1. Repented of all your sin which you've committed against a perfect and Holy God (SERIOUS!!!), and then: 2. Believed in Jesus as the (sole) One through Whom this sin can be forgiven - "believing" meaning committing the whole of your life and the rest of your life to Him (not just a 'head' belief).


    (7)The next step after those two above would normally be: 3. Baptism in water (which has some reality of connection to the section above), and you could expect to: 4. Be filled with the Holy Spirit. If not, you may and (8)should pray to be filled.

    (6)/(7)/(8) = what I am simply asking is... Exegete these verses (Eph 1:13, Acts 2:38, 1Cor 12:13, Rom 6:3-4, Eph 4:4-6) and you will find it impossible to come to the conclusion that there is a "next step" where you are filled (previously not being filled) after praying for the filling of the Holy Spirit (8). Filling happens -yes!, but filling doesn't mean you were void to begin with. We have a different concept of being filled... All of these verses indicate that you are FILLED with the Holy Spirit as soon as you become a believer (true). I'm asking you to justify why you say that people are not filled with the Holy Spirit when they first believe, as all else indicates that it is so. Especially! address verses, EPH 1:13 and ACTS 2:38... EXEGETE!

    5) Logically... how could one be spiritually formed more like Jesus without the Holy Spirits power? If the tongues/Holy Spirit baptism is true, then people are useless until this. Why would God do that?

    Please know that I am a HIGHLY logical person. That's how I think and live. But as mentioned, NORMAL human logic will not do for the Bible. That's NOT saying that the Scriptures are illogical. No way! You have to recognise that this is no ordinary Book about an ordinary subject. Here God Himself is speaking to man. HE IS GOD! As God He will decide what to tell you, and how to tell you. He will do it His way. We have to fit in with Him!

    You see, a major part of SIN is rebellion - man's rebellion about what God says, what He demands, and Who He is. We can query what God's said or done. He graciously allows us to do this!! (amazing, hey!) But at the end of the day (9)we must fit ourselves into Him - certainly NOT the other way round!

    To address your query. When a person REPENTS (seriously so, or it's not repenting at all) and BELIEVES (ditto), then the Holy Spirit comes into that person to bring him or her from death to life, from darkness to light, and so on. That person is then born again of and by God's Spirit, and becomes a son of God, and a member of God's Kingdom.(10)BUT... he is not (necessarily) yet FILLED with the Spirit. That is, he surely can do some things in the Christian life, but will be at the very least curtailed as to what.

    Thus getting filled with the Spirit via the (11)4. steps I wrote above is very important - because THEN you have "access" as it were, to all of God's power in your life.

    (9)/(10)/(11) = Justify with Scripture, not what you may have heard from a Pastor, these "4 steps" (11). Outline them because your quote above (10) is extremely terrifying [before God] if you are wrong and you are teaching that. Like you best said yourself - "we must fit ourselves into Him - certainly NOT the other way round!" I strongly believe the Scriptures are evident that you are in fact trying to fit this/your doctrine on God, but God has not taught it at all. I fear for this and who teach it because teachers will incur a STRICTER judgement (James 3:1) and as Jesus said (Matthew 18:6,7) "whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea" and also... "woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!"

    I hope that's "logical" and explanatory. *smile*


    Now this is a side note. But...

    There is a book called "Prepare For War" by Rebecca Brown (1987, Whitaker House, New Kensington)



    I don't necessarily agree with everything in this book, but Chapter 12 (p171) is called 'Testing the Spirits In Christian Churches' and it has a story of a girl Lea (not her real name) whom through the laying on of hands from a renowned speaker received tongues (knocked backwards with burning feeling in her stomach). She was previously said to have been grieving the Holy Spirit when a previous attempt by her Pastor had failed... But now she felt she was a good Christian now it finally worked. "Troubles started almost immediately. She had continual stomach and intestinal problems" + "she began having difficulty hearing the Lord speak to her" + "she was completely unable to maintain a clear mind long enough to read the Bible for more than a minute or two at a time". Realising that she probably had received a demon of false tongues, she was asked to start speaking in tongues (by the author of the book) because she could do that better than normal praying. As she was speaking the author of the book said "You spirit speaking through Lea in tongues, in the name of Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour, I command you to tell me, what do you have to say about Jesus and which Jesus do you serve?... Lea was horrified when cursing started coming out of her mouth" (Quotes from page 177)

    "Lea had allowed a man whom she did not know to lay hands on her, and then she accepted what had happened to her without testing the spirit she had received" (177) and overlooked 1Tim 5:22 and 1Jn 4:1-3
    "Tongues, This is probably the area where Satan has had the greatest success in our day. Christians have made the terrible mistake of assuming that ALL tongues are from God"

    Clearly from this not everything that is supernatural is from God, as Satan can also do signs and wonders to try to deceive even the "elect" (Matt 24:24).


    As for your section at the end of your post, you're absolutely right. There are literally millions of church people believing they are Christians who think you've been baptised in/filled with the Holy Spirit who are not, and almost as many believing their tongue speaking is from the Spirit when is is not. VERY, VERY SERIOUS! Satan can and does imitate/counterfeit the work of the Holy Spirit. (And it's possible that a high proportion of these same people, sure they are born again of the Spirit, but once again they are not. *many, many, many tears.......*) Their Pastors will answer to God for leading them astray.

    God bless you heaps!

    - BM

    Thank you very much for your response. I pray the Lord has His truth be known. Amen!

    I only raise this because I care. We need to bring everything and compare it to Scripture. That's why it was called the "canon"


    In love,
    Luke.
     
  14. Hey Luke!

    As a (quite ill) 71 yr old having now sought the Lord and His truth for 52 years, I encourage you in your search for the truth of being filled with the Spirit and the question of tongues. I suspect you're a tad younger than I am. I suppose one kind of 'mellows' a little with age, stops trying quite so hard, doesn't get fazed if something appears to not be adding up for a time. Which tempts me to say to you to perhaps not try quite so hard. Chill a little as my teenage friends would probably say. *smile!* You WILL find the truth if you continue to seek it with all your heart, for such is God's promise to you!

    Before proceeding may I tell you that I am a completely open-minded man who continually seeks God's TRUTH. I cannot help myself, have done this all of my life! I'm not able to attend any church because of the long-term ill-health of myself and my wife. Thus I'm not "stuck" on ANY doctrine of any kind, and in fact have learnt all that I know of the Scriptures from the Holy Spirit as my Revelator. You show me a new truth, or a different truth, I'll test it, and if it's correct I'll change THERE AND THEN. That's me - as God made me. So I don't ever fear anything new or different.

    I've tried to go back and overview your original post that I responded to. Here are some things I've noted:

    1. At Pentecost it seems that we're not told whether there were enough folks dramatically filled with the Spirit to be (individually) speaking all of the languages needed, considering how many the text indicates there were. The text appears to more be saying that those speaking in their newly-gifted "other language" (not their own) were heard by many different language speakers at the same time, all in their native tongue.

    What is clear is that uneducated men spoke by the Spirit and those listening heard the message in their own tongue. This is clearly miraculous, the miracle having been performed by the Holy Spirit. And then to speak in an (unknown) tongue in the primitive church OR today (as in 1 Corinthians 14) is also a miracle by the Holy Spirit. These are the similarities between Pentecost tongues and later tongues.

    2. Now to the difference between Pentecost and after. The Pentecost record is of a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, the tongues, like fire, which then divided and sat on each of them, AND they were then filled with the Spirit, and began to speak in other languages. Let's consider this as the clear record of THE first filling of normal humans with the Holy Spirit. A most MAJOR event for the beginning of Christ's church on earth.

    Now to go forward to verses you've quoted of later fillings, such as where you said: "Acts 10 when the Holy Spirit first descended on the gentiles the sign of tongues which caused Peter to say about it "who have received the Holy Spirit JUST AS we did" (Acts 10:47 NASB)" Perhaps we should take a careful look at the words "just as"? Was Peter saying the Spirit came upon them with a sound like wind, tongues as of fire; or was he simply saying that they were "filled with the Holy Spirit of God just as we were"? The text in this verse doesn't clearly seem to indicate one way or the other, but let's continue.

    Possibly the new expression (not used at Pentecost, but used more than once thereafter) "fell on them" gives a clue that this was purely the filling of the Spirit then shown tangibly by speaking in tongues. That's what the record says: Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

    Here "falling upon them" is directly equated with receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, and with speaking with tongues and magnifying God. All of those things; NO mention of 'like wind' or like fire'.

    This seems to be further confirmed where Peter was later relating what happened as above: Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. That is, fell upon them, as He fell upon us at Pentecost. This is speaking of the receipt of the Holy Spirit, and does not appear to be including the 'like wind' and the 'like fire'.

    Does this then come down to a question as to the "importance" of the 'like wind' and tongues 'like fire' on their heads vs. the actual filling with the Spirit? If so, then I'll go for the latter, for while the former was certainly an important 'sign' for those people present at Pentecost, it's the FILLING with the Holy Spirit of God that was the ultimate substance of the matter, was it not? And a very, very, very important one indeed!!

    3. I can assure you that I am VERY aware of the far more serious expectations for the teacher. I futher assure you most solemnly that I have ZERO desire to try and fit my ideas into the Scriptures. Luke, I have spent my whole adult life searching for the truth. I call myself a truth-seeker, as I've been even before converstion. I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO KNOW THE TRUTH. What's more, during all of my life, as soon as someone can show me where I'm wrong I CHANGE (usually straight away). A question for you (not requiring an answer), "How many people do you know who are like THAT?"


    4. At this point I'm going to ask you some things straight out and maybe very important (for you!) Asked in genuine and true LOVE from an old codger who loves you and wants you to become and to be a purveyor of God's truth.

    Concerning ALL the matters you asked about, are you seeking to prove a 'doctrine' (or 'doctrines') that you feel is true, or are you open-mindedly solely seeking to FIND GOD'S TRUTH? - no matter that it may go against what you're currently feeling and believing. That is, is it possible that you could have an "agenda" of any kind? I simply ask this because most people who do posts like yours do have one - so for your sake my earnest and genuine hope is that you don't.

    5. May I suggest that you go on further with the thread by dealing with your queries etc. one at a time. You've raised so many now, and they're growing, that there's no possible way for anyone to reasonably address them all. Perhaps continue with your most important query, or whatever - if convenient, copying things you've already said (to save time).


    I now have an apology to you and all who've followed these posts. Where I spoke about people being saved but not filled with the Spirit, I was very much thinking of Christians in the West. I know it's different in 3rd World and Emerging Countries. Because the "standard" of our Christianity here is so appallingly low, I would sure hope that I'd not feel that I have to start saying that: "If you're not filled with the Spirit then you're not saved!" *yikes!*

    For example the traditional Baptist Church for maybe centuries has basically preached nothing about being filled with the Spirit at all. Expressing this simply, they preached just believing in Christ to get saved, then later water baptism. So are all damned who are/were in such churches?

    As I've said, it's clear that to GET saved God the Holy Spirit must come in to a person's life. IF we were in an Underground House Church in China I could expect that we'd come to the Lord and be filled there and then. But we're NOT amongst those hundred million Chinese Believers, are we - and so that may appear to bring a problem.

    Looking at my own early life (a great while ago!) it seems pretty clear that I WAS born again, but I certainly was NOT filled with the Spirit - for quite a number of years. In fact a 'time-line' of my Christianity is rather 'messy' in the sense of not knowing for CERTAIN exactly what happened when. I'm most grateful it's not been messy for a long time now, and that's what matters! I hope this may help explain why I wrote what I did on this subject, and my hope and wish for everyone would be that they are born again AND constantly being filled with His Spirit.

    Many blessings!

    - BM
     
  15. :smiley90: I HAVE TO SAY YOU GOT THAT RIGHT :smiley40:

    Ive read this thread 4 times
    and more and each time it Blesses me more

    why ? is that ? :smiley90:
     
  16. 100% honesty....

    In regards to an "agenda". I wrote my posts with a strong conviction that the doctrine of a second 'baptism' in the Spirit is wrong. On the one hand, I did want to prove the point that it was wrong (but not to win an argument, rather because I see it as really important to address and I see it as not from God, so my first reaction is to combat it for the sake of releasing others from a prison of lies and infirm foundations), BUT on the other hand I simply wanted to see how people obviously on the 'other end of this spectrum' would interpret certain verses, to find out/explore their justification for believing this.

    THIS IS MY QUERY I NEED EXPLAINING:
    Eph 1:13.

    In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed (πιστευω = I believe in, trust in, have faith in) in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit


    How would someone who gives their life to God in a trust (not head knowledge, but genuine) not be therefore FILLED with the Holy Spirit.

    The difference is that I see the Scriptures teaching that FILLING happens when you become a Christian, but you say that this happens later at a separate point of time (no matter in China or here, whether closer or further apart from initial response to God you seem to put across two events)....?

    Your testimony was this...
    Looking at Scriptures that is impossible. What could have happened was that you walked away after your were saved and lost salvation (Heb 6), or that you were not truly 'saved' to begin with - i.e. went to an emotional altar call that did not preach Gospel and repentance, but preached that He will make your life better. Therefore not responding to the Gospel, but a better life. I WON'T TELL YOU HOW YOUR LIFE WENT, but this is confusing to me especially in my eyes because being born again means that you have the Spirit.

    You said that "it seems pretty clear" that you were born again. If you could tell by the Lord changing you and fruit, then He only does that by the power of the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:24 = your new self has been CREATED). If you could see fruit, then the Holy Spirit is the only thing able to CREATE fruit in you (Gal 5:16-26). If you were experiencing Godly changes in attitudes, then it is clear you were already filled as "no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except IN the Holy Spirit"... Didn't you call Jesus your Lord?

    Anyway, please don't take offense I WON'T TELL YOU HOW YOUR LIFE WENT, but this is exactly what I don't see lining up with truth...


    Please explain Eph 1:13.



    ~Side note~


    Not that I was there, and not saying that everything that was preached was right, but if you understand that they (like me) don't preach 'baptism of the Spirit' (as you see it) is because all it is is a PHRASE used to describe what happens WHEN you are saved. I.E. another way the bible describes being: "Saved", "born again", "baptised in the Holy Spirit", "In Jesus", "In the body of Jesus", "Christian", "in The faith". Therefore teaching being saved IS similarly teaching to be baptised in the Holy Spirit.


    In love and honesty,
    Luke.
     
  17. QUOTES FROM LUKELUKE:

    100% honesty....

    In regards to an "agenda". I wrote my posts with a strong conviction that the doctrine of a second 'baptism' in the Spirit is wrong. On the one hand, I did want to prove the point that it was wrong (but not to win an argument, rather because I see it as really important to address and I see it as not from God, so my first reaction is to combat it for the sake of releasing others from a prison of lies and infirm foundations), BUT on the other hand I simply wanted to see how people obviously on the 'other end of this spectrum' would interpret certain verses, to find out/explore their justification for believing this.

    I hear you saying here something like: a voyage of discovery about how others interpret Scriptures; but not trying to be "bossy" (though you have been a tiny bit, I believe without meaning to be); as well as seeking to expose errors that you see by strong conviction. Note: "for the sake of releasing others from a prison of lies and infirm foundations" is all very strong, my friend. I see and quite understand your PASSION for whatr you believe. But what it says to me is that you are the one with the truth, not us, and you are going to tell us the truth to fix us up. First of all: this wins no friends and so blocks your efforts to help us; second it can be seen as arrogance, whether you meant this or not. All of this Note is aimed at being positive, loving, and helping, okay.

    Otherwise, I can handle all of that so far as I can see. Thanks for the explanation and for not getting mad at me for querying if you did have an 'agenda'. (So common that people do...)

    Discussion or whatever one may call it on forum threads is an utter waste of time unless each will obey God's command to LOVE the other, and also to RESPECT him/her (my Beloved has been known to say that respect is the highest form of love, and when you digest this fully you can see the wonderful truth of it). Respect means I will LISTEN to you and do my very best to HEAR what you are saying - NOT dismissing anything you say. In fact I will actually put myself on your side in order to try and hear and understand you.

    THIS IS MY QUERY I NEED EXPLAINING:
    Eph 1:13.

    In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed (πιστευω = I believe in, trust in, have faith in) in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

    How would someone who gives their life to God in a trust (not head knowledge, but genuine) not be therefore FILLED with the Holy Spirit.

    For the sake of 'argument' I can't see why a saved person who is not filled with the Spirit could not claim this verse for his very own. Sealed means, well, simply sealed as God's own by His Spirit. I believed this long before I felt that I was filled. I would expect most new Believers to learn of this truth, filled or otherwise. That is, this is a GREAT verse, but I can't see how it implies anywhere that filling is required in order to be sealed by the Spirit. If I'm missing something, Luke, please point it out to me.


    The difference is that I see the Scriptures teaching that FILLING happens when you become a Christian, but you say that this happens later at a separate point of time (no matter in China or here, whether closer or further apart from initial response to God you seem to put across two events)....?

    I totally accept that you believe the Scriptures teach filling at one's conversion. Our discussion here is to try and see if this is so from/in the Scriptures!! Note: at no time when trying to explain what I sadly see happening in the West (i.e., mostly later filling) was I meaning to imply that this is ALWAYS the case, NOR that it intrinsically HAS to be the case! NOT AT ALL. In fact I earnestly wish that I'd been filled at conversion!!

    Your testimony was this...

    "Looking at Scriptures this is impossible." NOTE: as you started off here, this is again very black and white, Luke. "Impossible?" Absolutely outside the realm of possibility? Are we trying TOGETHER to find the truth here, or are you 100% CERTAIN that you are right, i.e., that YOUR interpretation of the Scriptures is absolutely right and that of others is wrong? That's how it comes across.

    You could have easily said this better, e.g., "BM, the way I see the Scriptures I just can't see how this could have been true for your life." That allows the other guy some room to explain HIS position rather than feeling shot down by your strong b & w statement. [Maybe you're getting tired of me trying to help you be gentler and looking more carefully at the other guy and his position - but I hope not!! Cos I'm with you in this search for the truth, okay, NOT agin you.]

    What could have happened was that you walked away after your were saved and lost salvation (Heb 6), or that you were not truly 'saved' to begin with - i.e. went to an emotional altar call that did not preach Gospel and repentance, but preached that He will make your life better. Therefore not responding to the Gospel, but a better life.

    I neither walked away nor lost salvation EVER!! From the moment of my conversion and even before, I was and have been ALL FOR GOD!! I've sinned, sure, like us all, but I've not had even ONE DAY of rebellion nor ONE DAY of separation from Him (including during deliberate sin for a time). The realisation of this truth of 52 years came just recently and quite stunned me at such an evidence of God's astonishing grace!!!

    However my first contact with God WAS indeed very imperfect: bad teaching and understanding, lack of detail, and so on - JUST LIKE FOR MOST WESTERN CHRISTIANS!!! I was NOT looking for a "better life" nor responding to emotionalism - both most serious Western church problems (my conversion was entirely between me and God, not in a church).

    I WON'T TELL YOU HOW YOUR LIFE WENT, but this is confusing to me especially in my eyes because being born again means that you have the Spirit.

    Hector, I'm not meaning to confuse you, my friend, no way! "Means you have the Spirit." - I've already said that a new Christian HAS to have the Spirit or salvation is impossible. I've then simply said further that it seems that Westerners MOSTLY don't appear to get FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT till later - or even not at all.

    What seems to be happening here is that as I convey to you salvation as I experienced and understand it, it conflicts strongly with what you believe. You may be RIGHT! So no need for confusion for now. These are just two different situations - and two different understandings of them. For the time being please try to just accept this.

    You said that "it seems pretty clear" that you were born again. If you could tell by the Lord changing you and fruit, then He only does that by the power of the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:24 = your new self has been CREATED). If you could see fruit, then the Holy Spirit is the only thing able to CREATE fruit in you (Gal 5:16-26). If you were experiencing Godly changes in attitudes, then it is clear you were already filled as "no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except IN the Holy Spirit"... Didn't you call Jesus your Lord?

    NO! At conversion, aged 18, first time I found anyone who could tell me anything about salvation, I was told Jesus was my Saviour! Lord, most sadly, was entirely absent! Even Billy Graham who I heard here in 1959 talked almost all about Jesus as Saviour, not as Lord. FAULTY PREACHING! I was 31 before I heard about Jesus' Lordship, from a tape by an Anglican Priest, accepted Him as my Lord there and there (a very interesting story to this as I "walked the plank"!) Then at age 61 I chose to go one step further by making Jesus my Master, gave up all of my rights, with me as His bond-slave (bondman - hence the name) FOREVER!!

    As for fruits, changing, etc., that's more difficult. On another Christian forum, a 17 yr old girl once told me straight out how she'd fooled her parents, Youth Pastor, other kids, and all the church folk for years that she was a born again Christian - but she wasn't! "It's as easy as anything," she assured me!! I know I worked at living as a Christian would/should. I did understand how to believe in Him, and was (imperfectly) following Him to the best of my knowledge and ability at that time. I did quite a deal of preaching when I was around 19 (NONE about the Holy Spirit!) I studied the Scriptures seriously, worked with others in evangelism, was a most earnest and serious Christian young man. JUST LIKE PLENTY OF OTHERS AROUND ME!!

    If I really was born again as I believe, I can see no evidence of being filled with the Spirit. That came a lot later.

    Anyway, please don't take offense I WON'T TELL YOU HOW YOUR LIFE WENT, but this is exactly what I don't see lining up with truth...

    You can say what you like to me, Luke, I will NOT take offense. (Only seek to "correct" you if I can see a better way for you to do things - because I love you!! You don't have to take my "correction" either, only if you choose to.)

    ~Side note~

    Not that I was there, and not saying that everything that was preached was right, but if you understand that they (like me) don't preach 'baptism of the Spirit' (as you see it) is because all it is is a PHRASE used to describe what happens WHEN you are saved. I.E. another way the bible describes being: "Saved", "born again", "baptised in the Holy Spirit", "In Jesus", "In the body of Jesus", "Christian", "in The faith". Therefore teaching being saved IS similarly teaching to be baptised in the Holy Spirit.

    Yup, I quite get what you're saying. Cannot say that I'm yet convinced that it's quite as clear cut at that - WISH IT WAS!!! - but as my current health allows I'm researching hard on this, and will write again as soon as I can.

    In love and honesty,
    Luke.

    And to you, my friend!!

    - BM

    (Are you Gold Coast, Queensland, or some other place?)
     
  18. EM, if you can, I personally would love you to tell us why you think it is blessing you so much!!

    With love!

    - BM
     
  19. Luke, please feel free to respond to my previous post if you'd like to (so we don't get bogged down with too many things again).

    (I just have to write what I've researched. Will do soon as I can.)

    - BM
     
  20. To Bondman,

    Hi again!

    :)

    sorry cannot reply yet, as I will chew on these things more.

    I have been very UNgentle with my words, and thankyou for your perseverance with me. Sorry for that.


    I am from the Gold Coast, Queensland - Australia
     

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