Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Guest 3, Jun 23, 2013.
Do you think yahweh judges all sins the same.
There are many scriptures that help argue both sides. It is 5am though and I am about to get some sleep. I can find those scriptures later if no one else posts them first. What I can say with certainty is that there is differently levels of consequences for different sins.
Really? Interesting, yes come back and tell me everything you know about this subject.
Romans 6:23 says............. “For the wages of sin is death…”
All sin leads to death and judgment without Jesus, but does that mean all sins are equal? NO!
Exodus 22 and Leviticus 20 tells us that God assigned different penalties to certain sins This suggests that certain sins differ in seriousness. Under the Old Testament law, a thief paid restitution; an occult practitioner was cut off from Israel; but one who committed adultery was put to death.
Moses says that the golden calf debacle a great sin in Ex. 32:30.
Ezekiel says that after Oholah (Samaria) had ruined herself by unfaithfulness to God, Oholibah (Jerusalem) "became more corrupt … in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister" in Ezek. 23:11, ESV.
John distinguishes sins that do and do not inevitably lead to death in John 5:16, picking up Jesus' warning about the unforgivable sin in Mark. 3:28-30.
There are different degrees of sin just as there are diferrant degrees of punishment in hell.
What kind of degrees of punishment in hell are there.
No way to determine that my brother.
Their will be "Rewards" for some in heaven and the opposite will take place in hell.
It is important to realize that every saint will be rewarded “according to his deeds.” Matthew 16:27............................... “For the son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds”.
All we can known is that for some, their punishment will be less than others and that is based on the information that they had concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. The ones who knew and rejected Christ will suffer more than those who did not know.
Matthew 10:11-15 (KJV).........
"And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
"Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."
Not all people are equally bad. Though all deserve damnation because all are sinners, different people have committed different degrees of sin.
Romans 3:23 (KJV).............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory (approval) of God".
Romans 6:23 (KJV)............
"For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
Luke 12:47-48. (KJV).......
“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.”
“Jesus answered [Pilate], 'You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin.' ”
“How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?”
So then, it is logical and Biblical that those with the greatest responsibility can expect the strictest judgment. That is exactly what the Bible teaches as a principle.
Ezekiel 3 :17-21.......................
"Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, “Thou shalt surely die,” and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thy hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, when a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thy hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and thou hast delivered thy soul".
“Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment”.
2 Peter 2:20-21...........
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first".
If Peter’s statement teaches anything, it teaches degrees of punishment.
"And the Lord said, “Who, then, is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall set over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath. But if that servant shall say in his heart, ‘My lord delayeth his coming,’ and shall begin to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the unfaithful. And that servant, who knew his lord’s will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes; but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more” .The meaning of the last section of this parable is inescapable. All the wicked will be punished; however, those limited in their opportunities to learn about Christ will be punished “with fewer stripes” than those who knew the truth and obeyed it not.
It only takes one sin to separate us from God-no matter what it is.
The punishment for sin in eternity for the unsaved appears to be the same: eternal death/ hell/ separation from God.
The punishment for the 'saved' in eternity is an entirely different debate. I look at is a a losing of rewards or treasures rather than a punishment. You just won't be elevated the same way in eternity as those who are more obedient to the Word. I believe there is a hierarchy in Heaven.
In my opinion.
Yes, there is a hierarchy in Heaven. But, as Jesus alluded to in the parable of the laborers, all get the same rewards regardless of whether they started laboring at 6 a.m. or 2 p.m..
One thing I am certain about is that God is not evil / sadistic and demented. Ie, don't expect fancy torture devices!! Expect a simple fire with maggots. Levels may be more heat of fire or time in fire.
I am not sure what you are saying my brother, but in reality there is NO punishment for sin in eternity for the "saved".
All sin was paid for on the cross by the Lord Jesus which allows the "saved" to NOT BE punished for thir sin.
"For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Now then, is their a hierarchy in heaven for believers????
That is a real troubling question and since there are no Scriptures to support it, I would have to say NO.
Some people use Matthew 20:16 (ESV) to prove that there will be a hierarchy in heaven, but I for one do not accept that thinking.
"16 So the last will be first, and the first last.”
I believe that verse is all about the reward God will and it would be a stretch to say Jesus was teaching about a system in heaven based on what we did here on earth. God will give according to our faithfulness in doing what He asked us to do.
Sorry Glo, but I have to dissagree with you here. Believers will receive the rewards they earned and we will be able to receive different ones and not every one will get the same or even all of them.
Matthew 16:27 (ESV)
"For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done."
It seems clear to me that we will be repayed individually by what we did that God asked us to do. "Faithfulness"!
Matthew 25:114-30 (ESV)
“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. .....
2 Corth. 5:10 (ESV)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."
20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.
“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
So major, you deny what is being said here?
Each is payed exactly the same.
Each of the saved is immortal, you cannot be "more immortal".
Each of the saved is happy, healthy, and free from all the plagues and problems that mortal existence
is prone to. You cannot be "more free".
If you mean that some will have "more honour", or "greater prestige" then I agree with you.
But the benefits for being on the winning side of this mess are the same for everyone.
Glo.....denying what the Scriptures say is not the point here my brother. I believe the Scriptures, but in this case I just do not think you are understanding what they are saying here..........and I say that with no disrespect to you my friend.
I believe you quoted Matt. 19:27-30 and them it is also repeated in Matt. 20:16.
I do not believe that this parabel is a description of the reversal of earthly roles in heaven. There is no hierarchy in heaven wherein the poor and oppressed will rule over the rich and powerful when we get there. Nor will those believers who enjoy wealth and prestige on earth be somehow abased in heaven. Earthly rank will not automatically translate into heavenly rank. I just do not see that being taught by the Lord Jesus. When Jesus told the disciples they would be greatly rewarded in heaven for what they had given up on earth in Matthew 19, IMO, it seems taht He was making a contrast with the rich young ruler, who was unwilling to give up much of anything for Christ’s sake. The “last” in this world, the disciples in their poverty, would be “first” in the kingdom of heaven. Conversely, the “first” in this world, the self-sufficient rich, would be the last to find the kingdom. (http://www.gotquestions.org/first-last-last-first.html)
There are a lot of people who have given everything for the Lord. We have not seen them but they are out there. There are a lot of people we have seen. TV evangelists who clammer and beg for money and say they heal the sick and calim they will make you rich. In the day that the rewards are given out...........I believe that this parsbel speaks to that time when a lot of well known people will be standing behind the un0known people.
But that is just me. No one has to agree and you certainly can disagree and I will still love you no matter what!
Yes-that was my point exactly. It is not so much a 'punishment' as it is lesser reward in heaven/afterlife. Can you say with 100% certainty that we will ALL get the same 'treasure' in heaven? (Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:14-30)
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
We know there is a 'King'.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
We know there are 'elders'
Matthew 19:28 (Luke 22:30)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
We know the disciples will be 'judges' over Israel.
Yes I agree there is very little to go on. When you combine the parables of heaven and the Revelation-I think we may all be surprised in the end. I won't mind sweeping golden streets....(if there is any dust)...
***NOTE: I don't want to make this into a 'what happens pre/post trib rapture'; so I am making this statement so you know I am aware of the different implications of the '1000 year reign' and all that goes with it.***
OK. Yes sir I understand now what you were saying and we are in agreement. God bless you!
I heard Dr. Oliver B. Green say once that...........
"I will be so glad to be in heaven that if I have to ride around and work off of a garbage truck.....I will be happy".
(Yes I know, there will be no garbage in heaven).
I would not offer a single complaint if I were merely a garbage man in Heaven. I'd be delighted for the mere opportunity to share in God's Kingdom, even if I hold the smallest share imaginable. I am concerned though that many Christians seem to make that their goal. They seem so often to desire to slide through the gates with as little possible margin as possible while living the "best" possible life on Earth.
Aren't we called to improvement upon salvation? To better ourselves in Christ? I would question genuine salvation if the heart is not seeking the Lord?
That was my point. Too many Christians that I have seen have made their goal to just BARELY make it into Heaven, as if such a thing is even possible.
AKA: Fire insurance
Yes. I've always felt that if people are living their life to just barely squeak through, then they probably aren't actually going to make it at all. Salvation is one of those infectious things that should permeate through every part of our being and lead to a greater desire to serve God, not just observing enough of the "right beliefs and practices" to make it into Heaven, because that isn't even possible.