Are all Muslims troublemakers?

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I'm not an expert in the Koran, and I haven't studied it extensively, but I have put some time into it. I haven't read it cover to cover yet. It's one of my goals.

Growing up, my family was pretty close with a Muslim family from Dubai. This family was extremely kind, warm, and welcoming with a great sense of humor. They had two young children my younger sister used to babysit. I used to come over and help their son (who was only in 2nd grade) with his art assignments. They even joined us for our Christmas Eve service where the father and husband of the family delivered a Bible passage in farsi (as it was closest to the original language of the three kings).

Through them, my mom established a relationship with the imam and his wife at their mosque (which wasn't too far from my family's church). The imam's family were also very sweet people with a great sense of humor. My mom's goal was to create a program where both the church and the mosque would work together to help local homeless shelters in fundraising. The imam was on board, but some of the Muslims at the mosque were not.

Likewise, many of the congregants at my family's church thought it was hobnobbing with terrorists.


Just like Christians, you will find Muslims can be extremely different. However, as much as easy as it is to love many of them, from what I've read in the Koran, there isn't a sense of peace. There is a sense of war against anyone who does not hold the Islamic faith. Where as with Christians, there is a sense of concern for those who do not hold the Christian faith.

The Muslim people I have gotten to know, I'm not sure, are obeying the faith of Islam, because of how loving and peaceful they have been to non-Muslim people like myself. However, it's no secret that many Muslims are devout and stick to the Koran passages to the letter. And these are the ones who have martyred, tortured, and treated others so inhumanely.

Are all Muslims trouble makers? No. From my experience, most of them have been absolutely wonderful. Does Islam promote trouble-making? You bet it does.
 
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I used to think that but it seems Jews and Muslims were higher on the list of targets.

Here's one article from a site that seems to present things from a Jewish perspective. http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/the_inquisition/
Here is a copy / paste from Wikipedia

In the Late Middle Ages and early Renaissance, the concept and scope of the Inquisition was significantly expanded in response to the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Counter-Reformation. Its geographic scope was expanded to other European countries, resulting in the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisition. From my limited knowledge of history it is the Spanish inquisition that was the most terrible.

Jews were specially targeted / demonized in 1492 because the Spanish government needed their wealth. Their treatment at that time albeit evil and terrible has to be seen in isolation.

Another copy / paste from Wikipedia

Beginning in the 19th century, historians have gradually compiled statistics drawn from the surviving court records, from which estimates have been calculated by adjusting the recorded number of convictions by the average rate of document loss for each time period. García Cárcel estimates that the total number of people put on trial by inquisitorial courts throughout their history was approximately 150,000, of which about 3,000 were executed - about two percent of the number of people put on trial. Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras studied the records of the Spanish Inquisition, which list 44,674 cases of which 826 resulted in executions in person and 778 in effigy (i.e. a straw dummy was burned in place of the person). William Monter estimated there were 1000 executions between 1530–1630 and 250 between 1630–1730. Jean-Pierre Dedieu studied the records of Toledo's tribunal, which put 12,000 people on trial. For the period prior to 1530, Henry Kamen estimated there were about 2,000 executions in all of Spain's tribunals.

I believe there were many dodgy judgments. Like during the witch trials. Where I believe many innocent woman were killed. But overall, that is not a lot of deaths. It was not utter chaos. People who killed someone without trial would be taken to trial.
 
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I The percentage basis of the twentieth century violence as compared to earlier centuries actually shows the twentieth century having a much higher percentage of violence than earlier centuries.

Okay, I did not know that. Who measured the violence? What numbers did they compare? How did they find the numbers?

I don't know anything about Homer's Iliad and I don't know what you are pointing out by bringing that up.

The Iliad is an example of violence. It does not say how Briseis became Achilles' slave, but it does mention how the Greeks sacked cities near Troy. Briseis must have been taken as a slave after the Greeks killed all the men.

The Aeneid by Virgil describes how the Greeks killed almost all off the Trojans something like the crusaders killed most of the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Or course both stories are fiction. Maybe the events never happened, but the Iliad was to the Greeks and Roman like the Bible is to Christians. They accepted the stories as history.

Homer was a Greek. Virgil was a Roman. Jews and Christians wrote the Bible. Greeks, Romans, Jews, and Christians invented democracy, so we study them in school. The Iliad is about violent events, but it is also a cool love story about Hector and Andromache. She knows he will die fighting the Greeks. She knows the Greeks will kill her or enslave her. It is so sad. I tear up just thinking about it.
 
I've always held that it is unwise to judge from a long distance. The things that were done a long time ago might not be what we would promote today, but those who were there at the time obviously saw things differently., so why judge as though it was today?
But when today, a group perpetrate persecutions and killings we are wholly justified in condemning those things based on today's standards.
 
Okay, I did not know that. Who measured the violence? What numbers did they compare? How did they find the numbers?



The Iliad is an example of violence. It does not say how Briseis became Achilles' slave, but it does mention how the Greeks sacked cities near Troy. Briseis must have been taken as a slave after the Greeks killed all the men.

The Aeneid by Virgil describes how the Greeks killed almost all off the Trojans something like the crusaders killed most of the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Or course both stories are fiction. Maybe the events never happened, but the Iliad was to the Greeks and Roman like the Bible is to Christians. They accepted the stories as history.

Homer was a Greek. Virgil was a Roman. Jews and Christians wrote the Bible. Greeks, Romans, Jews, and Christians invented democracy, so we study them in school. The Iliad is about violent events, but it is also a cool love story about Hector and Andromache. She knows he will die fighting the Greeks. She knows the Greeks will kill her or enslave her. It is so sad. I tear up just thinking about it.

Okay, so I gather the reason you brought up the Iliad is to support your view that the Bible is fiction. Now I understand.

May I point out that whether or not the Bible or Iliad are fiction is not relevant to the substance of our conversation regarding the percentage rate of violence? So I still don't know what your point is in bringing it up, although I do understand your motive.
 
Muslims are taught to believe in a Jesus. In their view, He is going to come back to earth when their mahdi appears, and He will admit He was wrong and has converted to Islam. They believe their Jesus will help their mahdi to persecute and execute non-believers in Islam. So, I would say that it is VERY important one doesn't believe in the wrong religion because doing so will definitely get you into hell. However, you are right to say that a right religion does not get you into heaven because it is only through Jesus' works on the cross and your faith in Him that will get you into heaven. This is not a religion...it is the truth.
Islam, is a good religion (if you exclude all the commands to kill infidels). Muslims don't go to hell because they Muslim. They go to hell because they ignore Jesus knocking on the door to their heart. Being Muslim is proof that they are currently ignoring Him. So I don't completely disagree with you.
 
Are you kidding me?

Ever hear of the Crusades or Inquisition?

Need I mention the KKK?

No, I am not kidding you.
Are you aware that some Islamic terrorists claim that their terrorist attacks are revenge for what Christians did in the crusades. Is that what you are proposeing as well?

It seems that you are unaware that the crusades should not be referred to as the “Christian crusades.” Most of the people involved in the crusades were not truly Christians, even though they claimed to be. The name of Christ was abused, misused, and blasphemed by the actions of many of the crusaders. Second, the crusades took place from approximately A.D. 1095 to 1230. Should the unbiblical actions of supposed Christians hundreds of years ago still be held against Christians today?

In actuality, the crusades were responses to Muslim invasions on what was once land occupied primarily by Christians. From approximately A.D. 200 to 900, the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Turkey was inhabited primarily by Christians. Once Islam became powerful, Muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and even murdered the Christians living in those lands. In response, the Roman Catholic Church ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken. Islam is not a religion that can speak from a position of innocence in these matters.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-crusades.html#ixzz3EiSwcNIJ

Do you think the KKK was a Christian denomination of some kind???
 
I think Ghid is a Christian actually, so I'd doubt very much she'd be saying the Bible is fiction.

oh...! Thank you PeaceLikeaRiver. Then she does believe the Bible is true. I thought she was trying to say that the Bible was not true when she compared it to the Iliad and said that both were accepted as true by the people of those times. I withdraw...(y)
 
We would say no, but I believe they saw themselves as such. Like so many before them and since they acted in what they believed was in the name of God.

and to that I would say the same words as our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 7:20........
"Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. Not everyone that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity"!
 
and to that I would say the same words as our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 7:20........
"Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. Not everyone that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity"!
I would agree, but unfortunately I think there are Christians who put a bad face on Christianity by their actions just as there are Muslims who put a bad face on Islam by their actions. We are quite quick to point out that the KKK and the Westboro Baptists are fringe lunatics who do not represent the central message of Christianity, but should we not extend that same courtesy to Muslims?
 
Are you kidding me?

Ever hear of the Crusades or Inquisition?

Need I mention the KKK?

The KKK was a political group, not a religious one.
And the Crusades was a response to religious tyranny -- not a group of Christians forcing religion.

The Inquisition was a model taken from the Church in order to seek out residing spies, except 1) the Church never used these methods to torture or kill (and in fact tried to persuade the Spanish monarchs from capital punishment), and 2) even the Spanish monarchs didn't do this torture or killing spree people like to say...the killings were capital punishment on behalf of the monarchs, not the Church. The Church still uses the traditional Inquisition method. If a bishop or priest or even religious educator begins teaching something that is questionable, they call for that person, see if there is anything that needs to be corrected, and if so, they correct it.

With all due respect, this criteria doesn't mesh.
 
I'm not an expert in the Koran, and I haven't studied it extensively, but I have put some time into it. I haven't read it cover to cover yet. It's one of my goals.

Growing up, my family was pretty close with a Muslim family from Dubai. This family was extremely kind, warm, and welcoming with a great sense of humor. They had two young children my younger sister used to babysit. I used to come over and help their son (who was only in 2nd grade) with his art assignments. They even joined us for our Christmas Eve service where the father and husband of the family delivered a Bible passage in farsi (as it was closest to the original language of the three kings).

Through them, my mom established a relationship with the imam and his wife at their mosque (which wasn't too far from my family's church). The imam's family were also very sweet people with a great sense of humor. My mom's goal was to create a program where both the church and the mosque would work together to help local homeless shelters in fundraising. The imam was on board, but some of the Muslims at the mosque were not.

Likewise, many of the congregants at my family's church thought it was hobnobbing with terrorists.


Just like Christians, you will find Muslims can be extremely different. However, as much as easy as it is to love many of them, from what I've read in the Koran, there isn't a sense of peace. There is a sense of war against anyone who does not hold the Islamic faith. Where as with Christians, there is a sense of concern for those who do not hold the Christian faith.

The Muslim people I have gotten to know, I'm not sure, are obeying the faith of Islam, because of how loving and peaceful they have been to non-Muslim people like myself. However, it's no secret that many Muslims are devout and stick to the Koran passages to the letter. And these are the ones who have martyred, tortured, and treated others so inhumanely.

Are all Muslims trouble makers? No. From my experience, most of them have been absolutely wonderful. Does Islam promote trouble-making? You bet it does.

Your comment was............
"However, as much as easy as it is to love many of them, from what I've read in the Koran, there isn't a sense of peace. There is a sense of war against anyone who does not hold the Islamic faith. Where as with Christians, there is a sense of concern for those who do not hold the Christian faith."

I agree with you completely and if you look back at the very beginning of this thread you will see that I said..........
"Christianity is a religion of FAITH and Islam is one of FORCE".
 
The KKK was a political group, not a religious one.
And the Crusades was a response to religious tyranny -- not a group of Christians forcing religion.

The Inquisition was a model taken from the Church in order to seek out residing spies, except 1) the Church never used these methods to torture or kill (and in fact tried to persuade the Spanish monarchs from capital punishment), and 2) even the Spanish monarchs didn't do this torture or killing spree people like to say...the killings were capital punishment on behalf of the monarchs, not the Church. The Church still uses the traditional Inquisition method. If a bishop or priest or even religious educator begins teaching something that is questionable, they call for that person, see if there is anything that needs to be corrected, and if so, they correct it.

With all due respect, this criteria doesn't mesh.

Dadgumm........I agree with you again!
 
Okay, I did not know that. Who measured the violence? What numbers did they compare? How did they find the numbers?

Ghid~ I apologize for thinking you were trying to imply the Bible is not historically accurate when you compared it to the Iliad. PeaceLikeaRiver set me straight that you do, in fact, believe the Bible.

As for the numbers and percentages of violence done in earlier centuries compared to the twentieth century: I will be happy to red0 my research on this if you will require the same of Godspell's statement that earlier centuries were more deadly/violent percentage-wise. You are right to ask because we should not blindly accept people's statements without requiring references of where they got their information.
 
I would agree, but unfortunately I think there are Christians who put a bad face on Christianity by their actions just as there are Muslims who put a bad face on Islam by their actions. We are quite quick to point out that the KKK and the Westboro Baptists are fringe lunatics who do not represent the central message of Christianity, but should we not extend that same courtesy to Muslims?

I understand what you are saying but IMO--- NO. Westboro and KKK are not Christian organizations because not every one professing Christ is genuinely a saved believer in Christ, if any at all. Christians do not do what those organizations promote.

Adolf Hitler was said to be a Catholic believer. He was raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. Do YOU believe that He was a Christian by his actions that killed 50 million people???

The actions of these two you mentioned are not in any way Christian actions and I firmly believe that Jesus will reject them on judgment day.
 
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