Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Huntingteckel, Apr 24, 2014.

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  1. Same here. After I started reading verse at face value it seemed like it was on every page of my daily reading.
  2. It's funny how that works, isn't it?
  3. Yeah. Now it seems like you have to be blind to miss it because it seems so obvious to me. I'm not trying to insult anyone but that's how I feel about it.
  4. Yep, once you see it, it's as plain as day. You wonder how you ever missed it.
  5. How did you go about finding this belief? Was it on your own?
  6. What scripture was that where the wicked fully die in the lake of fire? Sorry, I must have missed it.

    Also note the body without the spirit dies............ Lots of scripture that talk about the death of the wicked, none denote any place but on earth.

    Zero scripture anywhere that a spirit can be killed, destroyed, or perish. The soul being something we work on here while on earth with the engrafted Word and the belief that it's possible to save our soul with the Word even after being born again does not indicate anything concerning our spirit man.

    Paul was concerned about a man's spirit who he turned over to Satan.

    It's our spirit that gets born again, not the soul, and Jesus and Stephen both commanded their spirit to God, no care about their soul.

    Jesus went to hell and preached to the "spirits" in Hell, not the souls (Not saying the soul was not there also, but not mentioned but mentioned that Jesus soul would not be left in hell)

    I think I have been more than kind to Ken and understanding, I have addressed all his scriptures and He has yet to explain his fumbling at some things in His video, and yet to mention anywhere what happens to the spirit of man.

    If your going to make a doctrine to teach others, then It needs to be 100% solid.
    That is all I am asking, for scriptures that are not there because the doctrine is not there.

    I am actually getting tired of the thread. I can't get Ken to explain what I have asked him to and most here can't go scripture to scripture with me, and some of the ones that can agree with me....... I don't really see the point in continuing.
  7. #527 Huntingteckel, Apr 30, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014
    I don't understand what Ken hasn't answered... I think he's responded to all your posts directed at him.

    What do you guys think of this passage? I don't think it's been discussed. Jesus is talking to the Sadducees about the resurrection.

    (Luk 20:34 ESV) And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,

    (Luk 20:35 ESV) but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,

    (Luk 20:36 ESV) for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

    (Luk 20:37 ESV) But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.

    (Luk 20:38 ESV) Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him."

    I'm not 100% sure about what this is saying about the final judgement. My initial impression was that the ones that are worthy are the ones that attain to that age, but where does that leave the wicked? Can somebody explain this?
  8. Well, Jesus more or less is saying we are like the angles................ spirits as God puts the spirit in man and without the spirit the body is dead.

    any talk of resurrection is our new body Paul mentioned in Cor, the earthly is changed in to the Heavenly and we get our new body like Jesus had when He came.

    Satan also is a spirit (disobedient angel) and His goose is going to be cooking for eternity.

    Any talk of dying would be our body dying, for Paul said, Death, where is your sting?

    Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    (1Co 15:46-49)

    And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    (1Co 15:37-38)

    So, this body goes to the ground, the trump sounds and we get our body back but it's a heavenly body.

    Those that are dead (Asleep) shall also wake in a body to give an account (Death and Hell gave up her dead)

    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Some get everlasting contempt, some as Jesus said life with God, or Zoe life.

    We are in a class higher than the angels though, so we are a spirit that is in the image of God, and angels are spirits but created servants. We shall judge the angles scripture say.

    Spirits cannot perish, be destroyed or killed. I can't stress that enough and have been trying to point it out.

    There is another doctrine though................that has not been mentioned by anyone here.

    This Doctrine covers the fact that spirits can not be killed, they understand that, but they say instead the spirit just goes back to God and is not eternally tormented.

    They base it off this scripture here.........

    Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Since the spirit can not be killed or destroyed it just goes back to God. I say it goes back to God to be judged and get Eternal reward or contempt and suffering........

    they say it just goes back to God, not sure what God does with them if that is the case. I know the unsaved will not be with us....... So I do the math.

    Huntingteckel likes this.
  9. No, actually a pastor that I know began to study this and turned it into a class that he taught. It was a rather extensive study covering about 28 weeks and we looked at a lot of Scripture. If you are interested I can send you a link to the study.

    One good argument I found against ECT is that Scripture says that the Father alone has immortality. The ECT doctrine relies on the immortal soul doctrine. However, the immortal soul doctrine is in tension with Paul's statement that the Father alone has immortality.
  10. I understand that Jesus is more or less just saying that the coming age will be different then this one, but still the resurrection part is strange to me.

    (AMP 20:35 )But those who are considered worthy to gain that other world and that future age and to attain to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage;

    From John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:

    Luke 20:35
    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world,.... The world to come, eternal life and happiness; not by their own works and merits, but through the blood, sacrifice, and righteousness of the Messiah;

    and the resurrection from the dead; that is, the first resurrection, the resurrection unto life, which only the dead in Christ will enjoy; otherwise all will be raised: but some to the resurrection of damnation:

    these neither marry, nor are given in marriage
    ; there will be no need of any such practice, for the reasons that follow.

    Pardon my complete ignorance, as I've said before I am not very good with Revelation or prophecy yet. Are we all not going to rise at the same time?

    (Dan 12:2 ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    (Joh 5:29 ESV) and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

    (Act 24:15 ESV) having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

    I don't understand where the first resurrection is coming from out of these verse unless maybe that's what 1 Thessalonians is talking about here:

    (1Th 4:13 ESV) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

    (1Th 4:14 ESV) For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

    (1Th 4:15 ESV) For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    (1Th 4:16 ESV) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    (1Th 4:17 ESV) Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    I was taught that this passage was about the rapture... but now that I look at it I guess it makes sense that that would mean we are just resurrected first and not raptured...I may need to start another thread...
  11. I might add the rest of the doctrine says that since the soul is our mind, will and emotions, the part we think with.... (The brain organ is not what we think with, it's a complex organ that connects our soul to the physical world. The Holy Spirit dwells in our spirit and speaks through our spirit to us. Being renewed by the Word and saving our souls with the engrafted word, or soul "Mind" gets more in line with our born again spirit)

    So, since they say our spirit belongs to God, then it's the soul that never got in line with us being spirit beings. Because of that, it's our soul that is destroyed in Hell (As they think Jesus said) but who we are, a spirit goes to God as the scripture says since it was the renewed mind (soul) that was the bad part.

    I should have added the rest of their doctrine, sorry.

    This is why Paul said we believe unto the saving of even the soul because according to their doctrine the spirit part of us goes to God anyway. Paul and James they say meant the Word can keep our personality and mind in order to be saved also.

    Those scripture were already used here so I won't repeat them, but that is their doctrine so they don't have to explain where the scripture is at about the spirit being destroyed.

    It's sort of like Kens Doctrine in a way, but more of a universal approach (Nobody burns forever, all go back to God who made the spirit). They attempt to show spirits can't be destroyed, the soul (Mind part can) and God gets back the spirit. I have not read what they think God does with all those spirits.

    That is the rest of the doctrine.
    dgsinclair likes this.
  12. Yes, please :)
  13. Ya, that would take another thread......................... Your going to run into post and pre tribbers battling there.

    It's just saying those with God, get their body first, and the rest follow. The first resurrection are all those that belong to the Lord.

    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    (Rev 14:3-4)

    What follows after is the 2nd and Jesus said blessed is He who took part in the first.
  14. I've never studied prophecy, so I'm really ignorant to all that stuff. Gotta study it soon though.
  15. Your work is cut out for you.............. I would suggest that you study both post and pre trib sides and know both arguments. Both believe the same thing until you get to when the rapture is and the timing of the resurrections.

    Just beware of pretreism.......... (The belief that Revelation has already happened) back in 70ad................

    Then there is the (NO JEWS) anymore doctrine.

    Just compare scriptures carefully whatever you start to study out. It can get pretty deep, but it don't need to be that confusing.

    Keep in Mind, John did not write revelation like a book. Some events occur at the same time, some in the past, and John just penned it as He got it.

    Blessings with that study.
    Huntingteckel likes this.
  16. I'll see if I can post a link here. The pastors name is Tim Warner. Scroll down the page about half way and on the left you find "The Destiny of the Wicked"

  17. I appreciate that. :)
  18. I've heard that some think Revelation has already happened. I haven't studied it enough to even have a hint at an opinion though.
  19. You're welcome!
  20. Hey, I'm in Ga. also
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