Annihilationism

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"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty" (Isaiah 6:5).

God kept making me think of this verse in relation to this thread. And then there was the deception God spoke to me of. At first I thought He was talking about the deception of annihilationism which I still believe to be deception, but that wasn't His point. His point was this.

"And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing" (1 Corinthians 13:2).

You have not posted anything on this forum except this subject. Your main words are destruction and perish. What is the main point of speaking what you believe to be knowledge without love and you cannot say it is love because someone in the Spirit and even often those out of the Spirit know the difference. Where are you on the other threads helping the low in heart? How is your focus on the negative bringing people to the love of God which can really transform them spiritually?

How is this subject so important, more important than the bringing of sheep into the fold. The emphasis and study on this is time that could have been spent loving others. Prove your point. You win! But with who? Yourself. Not God for God is love.

The tearing, the gripping, the agony of the spirit separated from the Spirit of God is agony that occurs even on earth for those burning inwardly in a torment as they cannot find God.

Holiness is pure love. Isaiah, as others when they really encounter God, are humbled to their depth. Where is the depth in this conversation, or is proving a point the only depth.

The Spirit of God is alive, yet I just don't see it here in this thread. Focus on destruction and perish or God's love?

I'm sorry Olivia but we don't all live our lives on this forum. I happen to find this topic interesting. Partly no doubt out of intellectual pride and a desire for knowledge. But also partly out of love for the lost, many of whom I'm convinced continue to be lost because of the doctrine of eternal torment. Having said that, outside of this forum, my life is not limited to discussing hell, and I sure hope I show love to those around me.

This thread is about final punishment. It's not a happy subject, but it is important, because God's truth is important.
 
One cannot be in intellectual pride and the love of God's Spirit at the same time.

We're all sinners. I'm just trying to be honest in admitting that my discussing this subject is not purely out of love for others (although I hope I'm right in saying that is an important element of it)- I also enjoy discussing this subject (maybe it's going a bit far to call that pride, maybe not... I'm not sure honestly).

Fortunately selfish ambition (which tarnishes just about everything we ever do) does not exclude us the love of God's Spirit, otherwise the subject of this thread would truly directly concern us all!
 
We're all sinners. I'm just trying to be honest in admitting that my discussing this subject is not purely out of love for others (although I hope I'm right in saying that is an important element of it)- I also enjoy discussing this subject (maybe it's going a bit far to call that pride, maybe not... I'm not sure honestly).

Fortunately selfish ambition (which tarnishes just about everything we ever do) does not exclude us the love of God's Spirit, otherwise the subject of this thread would truly directly concern us all!
My hope would be that everyone on this thread (as we should continually) seek God's will not just doctrinally before speaking. Let us please God instead of ourselves. Discussion from God can take believers into His many wonders. It is in him that all spiritual answers as truth come. Real knowing is, "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).

The power in the living word from the living Spirit of God is where the real spiritual understanding becomes life.

It is late so I am off, but God bless you.
 
My hope would be that everyone on this thread (as we should continually) seek God's will not just doctrinally before speaking. Let us please God instead of ourselves. Discussion from God can take believers into His many wonders. It is in him that all spiritual answers as truth come. Real knowing is, "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).

The power in the living word from the living Spirit of God is where the real spiritual understanding becomes life.

It is late so I am off, but God bless you.

We certainly should seek God's will and it's a worthy prayer for each and every one of us. "Not just doctrinally"- in a general sense you're right of course- however this particular thread is in place to discuss the doctrine of hell and final punishment (which shouldn't remain purely intellectual in our hearts, but should move us with compassion for the lost).

Sorry for the red cross ;) It really was just to say that I didn't fully agree with what you were saying, and there was no ill feeling behind it :)
 
"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty" (Isaiah 6:5).

God kept making me think of this verse in relation to this thread. And then there was the deception God spoke to me of. At first I thought He was talking about the deception of annihilationism which I still believe to be deception, but that wasn't His point. His point was this.

"And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing" (1 Corinthians 13:2).

You have not posted anything on this forum except this subject. Your main words are destruction and perish. What is the main point of speaking what you believe to be knowledge without love and you cannot say it is love because someone in the Spirit and even often those out of the Spirit know the difference. Where are you on the other threads helping the low in heart? How is your focus on the negative bringing people to the love of God which can really transform them spiritually?

How is this subject so important, more important than the bringing of sheep into the fold. The emphasis and study on this is time that could have been spent loving others. Prove your point. You win! But with who? Yourself. Not God for God is love.

The tearing, the gripping, the agony of the spirit separated from the Spirit of God is agony that occurs even on earth for those burning inwardly in a torment as they cannot find God.

Holiness is pure love. Isaiah, as others when they really encounter God, are humbled to their depth. Where is the depth in this conversation, or is proving a point the only depth.

The Spirit of God is alive, yet I just don't see it here in this thread. Focus on destruction and perish or God's love?

OK, some points in response to Olivia. The original intent of this thread was to examine the issue of Annihilationism as one examine the facts of any matter. Some people got offended almost straight away that such a topic was ever posted on the forum even though there was no intention to offend at the start. I don't believe it was a troll thread. I believe it was a legitimate question.

I don't think this thread is the most important subject but also I don't see it as "off limits". I was afraid it might be when it first started, mainly due to my lack of experience with the goals and purpose of this forum.

The lack of love in this thread was indeed regrettable and for that very reason I was on the brink of abandoning it several times. However I lived in hopes that someone would share something new and fresh on the subject and that I could learn from others.

Olivia, I do agree that it is important in bringing the unconverted into the fold. However I don't see this thread as completely irrelevant to that end. In fact I think the topic of eternal tormentalisation and its perceived role in evangelism came up at least once, possibly more, in this thread. If we can't agree on so many things on this topic we are unlikely to be able to agree on methods of evangelism.

Admittedly, when the thread turned sour at the early stages, maybe it could have been shut down, but that is a moderator call, not ours.

Also even regarding the matter of loving one another, there is not going to be a unanimous agreement on what that looks like. If you read another thread on this forum "agreeing to disagree" I pursued this very line of questioning and at least one moderator agreed with me that "agreeing to disagree" was probably impossible under the circumstances. It is an ideal but won't be achieved when radically different and irreconcilable views, on what love looks like, exist.

The other option I explored was having a private conversation on an "invite only" basis. I think some felt this was either an elitist or contrived way to have a good discussion. Also a private conversation is unlikely to net the widest selection of people any of whom may have something valuable to say on the subject.

Also, Olivia, I think you are assuming that we are not examining other threads while this one is going on. Its not like a chat room where someone monoplises the room for a particular line of conversation. There is no reason why different topics can't, and I believe do, go on in parallel.

Olivia, I'm sorry, but I don't think you can reform people on a forum in the way you seem to be hoping to do.
 
How is "accept me or be tortured for eternity" any better than death?

1. I agree that the Bible teaches there is no way to enter heaven after being sent to hell.

2. I don't understand exactly what you mean about suffering. Could you elaborate a bit more? Based on what you're saying it sounds like you would agree with Annihilationism. I'm probably just reading it wrong.

3. I have never been a fan of all the preaching on hell. We should definitely be talking about it but standing on a corner yelling at every passerby that they will rot it hell if they don't repent generally just pushes people away.

Thanks for the good post!
Lol, your thread has taken off. Not sure if your questions have been answered...but I am not reading 12 pages of this :X3:.

1. Free will 101.
2. Annihilation = cease to exist. I believe in partial suffering and eternal banishment from God's full presence. Suffering + banishment = punishment.
3. Depends. The Holy Spirit may or may not deem it fit for the audience and moment. I was lead to the Lord by Christians telling me about hell and a nun with a cane. When one is in sin they will find anything a Christian says offensive. Nobody is inherently afraid of God or hell...as nobody living has experienced His wrath.

I make an effort to make people aware of living eternally in a place where your neighbour / shop owner / president / friends are all selfish, full of pride, hate, malicious thoughts etc. God doesn't need to do anything. Living with others like ourselves is bad enough.

God will not invent fancy torture devices. Hell and suffering will be simple. I think Jesus only mentions fire and worms, because there is only simply fire and worms when people suffer.
 
Lol, your thread has taken off. Not sure if your questions have been answered...but I am not reading 12 pages of this :X3:.

1. Free will 101.
2. Annihilation = cease to exist. I believe in partial suffering and eternal banishment from God's full presence. Suffering + banishment = punishment.
3. Depends. The Holy Spirit may or may not deem it fit for the audience and moment. I was lead to the Lord by Christians telling me about hell and a nun with a cane. When one is in sin they will find anything a Christian says offensive. Nobody is inherently afraid of God or hell...as nobody living has experienced His wrath.

I make an effort to make people aware of living eternally in a place where your neighbour / shop owner / president / friends are all selfish, full of pride, hate, malicious thoughts etc. God doesn't need to do anything. Living with others like ourselves is bad enough.

God will not invent fancy torture devices. Hell and suffering will be simple. I think Jesus only mentions fire and worms, because there is only simply fire and worms when people suffer.
No, me either.
It seems every body is discussing eternal punishment (by the Lord) versus ahhh I suppose purgatory.
I'm thinking none are correct (only I have the truth):rolleyes: :D
What if eternal torment is self inflicted? The Lord has done everything,..... more that we deserve to bring us forgiveness and reconciliation. When a person rejects the grace of God, and finally sees the cost of his life choices, and knowing that finally the door is shut and bolted, that would be torment. But it is self inflicted torment and it is eternal in duration.
 
OK, some points in response to Olivia. The original intent of this thread was to examine the issue of Annihilationism as one examine the facts of any matter. Some people got offended almost straight away that such a topic was ever posted on the forum even though there was no intention to offend at the start. I don't believe it was a troll thread. I believe it was a legitimate question.

I don't think this thread is the most important subject but also I don't see it as "off limits". I was afraid it might be when it first started, mainly due to my lack of experience with the goals and purpose of this forum.

The lack of love in this thread was indeed regrettable and for that very reason I was on the brink of abandoning it several times. However I lived in hopes that someone would share something new and fresh on the subject and that I could learn from others.

Olivia, I do agree that it is important in bringing the unconverted into the fold. However I don't see this thread as completely irrelevant to that end. In fact I think the topic of eternal tormentalisation and its perceived role in evangelism came up at least once, possibly more, in this thread. If we can't agree on so many things on this topic we are unlikely to be able to agree on methods of evangelism.

Admittedly, when the thread turned sour at the early stages, maybe it could have been shut down, but that is a moderator call, not ours.

Also even regarding the matter of loving one another, there is not going to be a unanimous agreement on what that looks like. If you read another thread on this forum "agreeing to disagree" I pursued this very line of questioning and at least one moderator agreed with me that "agreeing to disagree" was probably impossible under the circumstances. It is an ideal but won't be achieved when radically different and irreconcilable views, on what love looks like, exist.

The other option I explored was having a private conversation on an "invite only" basis. I think some felt this was either an elitist or contrived way to have a good discussion. Also a private conversation is unlikely to net the widest selection of people any of whom may have something valuable to say on the subject.

Also, Olivia, I think you are assuming that we are not examining other threads while this one is going on. Its not like a chat room where someone monoplises the room for a particular line of conversation. There is no reason why different topics can't, and I believe do, go on in parallel.

Olivia, I'm sorry, but I don't think you can reform people on a forum in the way you seem to be hoping to do.

I am not talking about the subject. I am talking about the spirit rather than Spirit that the subject is being presented. Any subject can be discussed, but is it God's will for the individual to partake in the discussion and if yes what is the partaking about. Is there concern for what is my purpose in relation to those who will be reading. Is it to prove a point or to be a spiritual light.

"I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak" (Matthew 12:36).

Words are potent and words are powerful and words create manifestation energy wise and words remain which is why there is an account of them.

The love in words creates manifestation and the evil in words does as well (we were created in God's image).

I am not saying that there are not times for strong speech, open rebuke, etc. as long as it is God's will. My point is to know that it is God's will when speaking and discussing anything. Even with doctrine it should be living coming to life anew, not something one time proven that is a moment one goes back to over and over. I can have a conversation about salvation. If I approach the same way every time with the same points every time I will can miss the mark because God is concerned about what does each one spiritually need. If it is by the Spirit of God the approach and ideas will be determined moment by moment (not ever contradicting scripture) and will be fresh and new according to the spiritual needs of those that need to be helped. If someone approaches something without the Spirit of God why are they even approaching it?
http://www.christianforumsite.com/members/a263149.13440/
A263149
I know that you have been involved in other threads so that point was not directed at you.

Like Isaiah I think if all of us really were focused on how Holy God is (pure, innocent, perfection of love) although those of us who are believers are saved and experience God's love and forgiveness, we would still be awestruck continuously being humbled to willingly submit to God in all things including our words.
 
Lol, your thread has taken off. Not sure if your questions have been answered...but I am not reading 12 pages of this :X3:.

1. Free will 101.
2. Annihilation = cease to exist. I believe in partial suffering and eternal banishment from God's full presence. Suffering + banishment = punishment.
3. Depends. The Holy Spirit may or may not deem it fit for the audience and moment. I was lead to the Lord by Christians telling me about hell and a nun with a cane. When one is in sin they will find anything a Christian says offensive. Nobody is inherently afraid of God or hell...as nobody living has experienced His wrath.

I make an effort to make people aware of living eternally in a place where your neighbour / shop owner / president / friends are all selfish, full of pride, hate, malicious thoughts etc. God doesn't need to do anything. Living with others like ourselves is bad enough.

God will not invent fancy torture devices. Hell and suffering will be simple. I think Jesus only mentions fire and worms, because there is only simply fire and worms when people suffer.

I don't blame you. There isn't much of substance in any of this thread so far except for a few people who have consistently done good posts. I think most of those 12 pages are Mitspa copying and pasting the same two verses anyway.

1.-----

2. I'm not sure if I've met someone with this view before. Can you elaborate through Scripture? I agree that banishment would be punishment regardless of if there was actual torment going on. I imagine knowing that you are going to be permanently separated from God like that would be horrible.

3. It's weird how some people are led to Christ from people telling them they are going to hell. To me, that has always been the biggest turn off about pastors. Maybe it's because it's brought up so often? I feel the focus should be on God's love rather than the punishment for not believing in Him. Not that it shouldn't be mentioned, but I hate when pastors make it a main part of every sermon.

I am not talking about the subject. I am talking about the spirit rather than Spirit that the subject is being presented. Any subject can be discussed, but is it God's will for the individual to partake in the discussion and if yes what is the partaking about. Is there concern for what is my purpose in relation to those who will be reading. Is it to prove a point or to be a spiritual light.

"I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak" (Matthew 12:36).

Words are potent and words are powerful and words create manifestation energy wise and words remain which is why there is an account of them.

The love in words creates manifestation and the evil in words does as well (we were created in God's image).

I am not saying that there are not times for strong speech, open rebuke, etc. as long as it is God's will. My point is to know that it is God's will when speaking and discussing anything. Even with doctrine it should be living coming to life anew, not something one time proven that is a moment one goes back to over and over. I can have a conversation about salvation. If I approach the same way every time with the same points every time I will can miss the mark because God is concerned about what does each one spiritually need. If it is by the Spirit of God the approach and ideas will be determined moment by moment (not ever contradicting scripture) and will be fresh and new according to the spiritual needs of those that need to be helped. If someone approaches something without the Spirit of God why are they even approaching it?
A263149 I know that you have been involved in other threads so that point was not directed at you.

Like Isaiah I think if all of us really were focused on how Holy God is (pure, innocent, perfection of love) although those of us who are believers are saved and experience God's love and forgiveness, we would still be awestruck continuously being humbled to willingly submit to God in all things including our words.


Who cares if some of the people here only post on this thread? Maybe they don't care to read or participate in the others. That has nothing to do with what's being discussed here so don't pretend that it does. Watch Ken's video before assuming that he is here just to lead others astray. I think you said yourself earlier that this is the first you've heard of this belief, so look into it a little bit. If you can get rid of that filter that changes verses as they enter your head then you'll see at least some of the verses posted by the Annihilation supporters here seem to indicate that the wicked are destroyed. Also, if you believe that Annihilationism isn't true and don't want to discuss it then why are you posting here?
 
I don't blame you. There isn't much of substance in any of this thread so far except for a few people who have consistently done good posts. I think most of those 12 pages are Mitspa copying and pasting the same two verses anyway.

1.-----

2. I'm not sure if I've met someone with this view before. Can you elaborate through Scripture? I agree that banishment would be punishment regardless of if there was actual torment going on. I imagine knowing that you are going to be permanently separated from God like that would be horrible.

3. It's weird how some people are led to Christ from people telling them they are going to hell. To me, that has always been the biggest turn off about pastors. Maybe it's because it's brought up so often? I feel the focus should be on God's love rather than the punishment for not believing in Him. Not that it shouldn't be mentioned, but I hate when pastors make it a main part of every sermon.




Who cares if some of the people here only post on this thread? Maybe they don't care to read or participate in the others. That has nothing to do with what's being discussed here so don't pretend that it does. Watch Ken's video before assuming that he is here just to lead others astray. I think you said yourself earlier that this is the first you've heard of this belief, so look into it a little bit. If you can get rid of that filter that changes verses as they enter your head then you'll see at least some of the verses posted by the Annihilation supporters here seem to indicate that the wicked are destroyed. Also, if you believe that Annihilationism isn't true and don't want to discuss it then why are you posting here?
You need to reread what I said because what you are saying is in no way a response to it.
 
Now the simple........... Prove to me, (In Scripture) That Jesus was not referring to Gehenna, the Greek Word for Valley of the Sons of Hinnom. (A physical place)

Why would I need to prove something that I have NEVER stated? Yes, Jesus WAS referring to the Valley of Hinnom. If you watched my video, you would have seen an entire section where I discuss the Valley of Hinnom, starting at 27:22 and running to 35:49. There is over eight minutes of content where I quote all of the old testament and new testament passages regarding the Valley of Hinnom.

What are YOU saying? Are you saying that when Jesus refers to Gehenna that He is NOT speaking of eternal punishment in hell?? Because if so, I'd like to know what Mitspa thinks of that! :)

However, I CAN prove from Scripture that Jesus' references to Gehenna are about MORE than just the physical place. Mark 9:43 states that the fires of Gehenna are unquenchable. It is referred to as unquenchable fire, where the worm will not die (quoting Isaiah 66).


Mark 9:43, 48

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell (Gehenna), to the unquenchable fire... where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.


Jesus is referring to Gehenna as unquenchable fire. And He presents that as the alternative to entering into life. Either you can enter into life, or you can go to Gehenna. So when Jesus refers to Gehenna, He is referring to a physical place, the Valley of Hinnom, AND He is referring to final punishment. Do you disagree??
 
I was responding mainly to an earlier post but I was already typing a response to KingJ and didn't want to go back a page. I just wanted you to know I was talking to you.
I understand you were talking to me, but you missed the point I was making entirely. My point is whether one is speaking from their own spirit verses speaking from the Spirit of God. Anything subject can be spoken about, but if the life of God isn't in it, but rather just proving a point, then for a believer the issue should be irrelevant since it is appealing to one's own flesh rather than the new creation that God made them to be.

Why am I here? Because God asked me. It was not my own will since when I first saw this thread I didn't post because I am not interested in the subject.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

What is God's will in this thread is my point.
 
The point of the thread and everything for the believer is to be in God's Spirit and God's will, not self. One's own mind knowledge is not being in God's mind.

So studying the Bible on the topic of Hell is wrong? Not in God's mind? Olivia, that makes no sense to me. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying, but it seems like the whole point of you posting here is to tell us God doesn't want us discussing it.
 
An old poster downplayed my observation on similar topics like this.

Although he is no longer active in this forum: I respect his opinion but not necessarily agree : )

He coined a phrase it “not simply a vegetarian issue” I happen to like the term he used : )
But it is simply a vegetarian issue, IMO.

Paul reprimanded us: there should be no arguing, quarrel…. (in contrast to argument: argument when i use it, am more referring to critical explanation, more of exegesis….

There are Christians who eat not meat.
There are Christians who eat meat.
This 2 groups will never agree: they have to agree to disagree
….. I think it is not a new age philosophy read in one thread….

Why it is possible for there still a Unity, in one Accord, and yet the members agree to disagree?

Common ground:
Both the vegetarian and not vegetarian “does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God”


In the same manner here:
The ECT gives exegesis that gives glory to God.
The non-ECT gives exegesis that gives glory to God.
 
So studying the Bible on the topic of Hell is wrong? Not in God's mind? Olivia, that makes no sense to me. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying, but it seems like the whole point of you posting here is to tell us God doesn't want us discussing it.
I do not think that the thread should be stopped. I have said that any thing can be discussed. It is whether it is being discussed from God's Spirit. Intellectualizing is from self. When someone speaks from God's Spirit they do not even know where they will be taken but they will go because God is leading them there.

If you don't understand this. Then pray that through this thread God opens your understanding to His life and Spirit in all things and that He guides you so that you only speak from His will. I am saying put God first. Pray before hearing and speaking, seek Him before hearing and speaking, obey Him before hearing and speaking.
 
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