Allegory or wisdom in Zion.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Softly, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. #1 Softly, Sep 8, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2015
    I know the daughter of Zion is an allegory for Israel and I'm not actually disputing it, but being new to this, need clarification coz I kinda see other possibilities in the word. Genesis says it is not good for a man to be alone so he made eve from a rib of Adam. Jesus didn't want to be alone and speaks of a wife and being the bridegroom. There is the life of two people described in detail in the bible, Jesus and the daughter of Zion, the daughter of Zion is believed to be the bride/wife of Jesus. Is it possible humanity has overlooked the possibility of God making a man and a woman, according to genesis, who will be joined in one flesh by the marriage of the lamb at the second coming, that the daughter of Zion is a real person. It fits with scripture but not the commonly held belief systems, (kinda like the earth is flat). The bible doesn't say she doesn't exist, in fact it details a flawed woman, a sinner that is punished, forgiven and marries Jesus. Maybe I'm being naive, but why would God go to such lengths to detail a woman that doesn't exist for a fictitious romantic ideal based on fantasy, God doesn't waste words on daydreams, nor does God seem to be the 'Rumi' type of imaginary lover and he says one man joined to one woman, so why are entire nations seen as one woman in gods eye, can't he count? It would make sense that if God loved her so much he would have been wise to hide her in scripture, to protect her. The bible says David took the stronghold of Zion and the kingdom comes from his line, both Jesus and the daughter of Zion, and the New Testament says behold Zion, your king is coming for you and directions are given as to where she is. It seems to be a real person and to argue it down coz of the similarities with Israel (which develop into a defined female singular personality) and the shame of disputing its imaginary status as a real woman may actually be gods plan, coz all humanity would be humbled if it were true. We are told to rightly divide the word and search scripture and that nothing is hidden for private revelation and she's out there in the open, so are we rightly diving the word if we discount the detailed personality, life, trauma and redemption of the daughter of Zion, or are we as ignorant as Catholics who assume Jesus marries his mother, (incest being an abomination to God), and by implication making themselves ignorant hypocrites coz casting Mary as the daughter of Zion is declaring Mary led a shocking life of torment by God and his jealousy and wrath. It seems we either choose to ignore or misplace this famous woman. If the daughter of Zion is a real woman, all I can say is May God help her coz the world would hate her.
  2. No.
    calvin and Major say Amen and like this.
  3. I love the simplicity of your 'no' [emoji4] and fair enough, it's well known as an analogy and I do understand that and I'm not arguing against it and can see it's an analogy, it just seems odd that God talks about her over 150 times in very specific details that's all, just got me wondering if there's more to it than we've been taught coz no where does the bible say it's not a real woman. Anyway, just throwing it out there, no harm done, I guess I'm trying to understand the word of God without prior knowledge that might prejudice my understanding coz it's written for all to be able to understand, except the overly curious, I guess [emoji15]
    Complete likes this.
  4. God speaks of her consistently because He loves the Church, the Bride of Christ. We are His Beloved!
    Major and Cturtle say Amen and like this.
  5. #5 Softly, Sep 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2015
    He gave his life for the church, that is just phenomenal and heart breaking to read about, there is no deeper love than that, ever, but Zion is a Jew and meantioned in revelation as being the new Jerusalem and bride of Christ and Zion suffers the wrath and fury of God, whereas God loves the church and it's not God that persecutes the church, it's humanity, which made me wonder if the church is the bride, and then john says he's only a friend of the groom. I'm a little confused. There are also lists of certain qualities in people that won't go to heaven, like liars for example (which means I was booted out of heaven when I snuck lollies home under my school jumper thinking mom wouldn't notice a two pound lump and would occasionally 'accidentally' forget to attend bible classes [emoji87]) and even though we are saved by grace why are these sins still meantioned as qualities that prohibit entry? Does it make sense that God doesn't care once he's forgiven us initially, if we lie, steal, murder and suffer envy and jealousy or can we say sorry/repent and do it again and repent and so on and gain entry to heaven. It makes God sound a bit naive in a way to let us get away with it.
  6. #6 Softly, Sep 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2015
    Zion isn't Israel or Jerusalem, the bible says its Bethlehem, the city of David, David taking the stronghold may just as well refer to his linage which God promised him through his faith in God by taking a city that was daunting, Zion which is to the south of Jerusalem. God names Israel/Jerusalem and the Virgin of/daughter of Zion seperately when speaking, there has to be a reason. What also has me curious is that is Israel the nation is born in a day, but Zion gives birth before labour pains, who can say in their right mind that the holocaust wasn't horrific labour pains, he says that she gives birth without labour pains. Nor is it Mary, God doesn't punish Mary. Everything does strongly lead to the church being Zion except the Lamentations of Jeremiah, who talks about the Lord pouring out his fury and devouring the foundations thereof, making her desolate, stretching out a line he has not withdrawn his hand from destroying and he has violently taken away the tabernacle as if it were of a garden (reference to Eden) and cast down from heaven unto earth (heavenly person) and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger. God doesn't hate on the church and forget about it, the rapture (to those who believe) would have to discount Zion being the church unless they go through the great tribulation with everyone else, which may very well be a possibility, making the church Zion, but... God describes her as a beautiful and delicate woman, in a similar vain that he described Jesus as nothing to look at, most importantly there is no one to comfort her, the church has Jesus, the church knows that they are forgiven and loved and Jesus died for the church but Zion thinks God has forgotten her. No where in the bible does it say that Zion isn't an individual, in fact it says that she is delicate and beautiful woman, lives in the south, does almost everything wrong by God, is severely punished so much so more worse than Soddom and Gommorah, she thinks God has forgotten her and there is no one to comfort her coz God caused Jacob (her own) to turn against her, that God has espoused her to one husband and recalls her childhood, as in genesis, it is not good for a man to be alone and he took a rib from Adam and made eve, Adam saying finally bone of my bones, maybe explaining why she is cast down from heaven to earth, and he is jealous for her, and pours out his wrath scarring her forehead and discovering her secret parts, writing his name in the hearts of people is different to scarring their heads.
    Is it possible that God also created the universe for a companion, a wife, and writes about her and somehow it became shameful to think for ourselves and wonder if she actually exists like Jesus did, coz everyone defends themselves if they mention the daughter of Zion, why? Doesn't the bible teach to rightly divide the word. If I'm wrong I don't care, I expect to be shot down, a lot, so what, I can offer my observation and curiosity without shame and have positive discussions with others and be willing to change my thoughts if I'm wrong. There is nothing of me that needs to be right but I need biblical proof she's a conglomerate of people rather than a statement of belief we have all been told to believe. We're not drones.
    If we accept the somewhat loose interpretation of a mass of people being one individual then any interpretation would have been good enough for anyone to claim to be the messiah. Jesus had to fullfill scripture as it is written, anomalies are not accepted, why then are anomalies accepted with Zion. If it doesn't fit, it's not right and from what I can see Zion doesn't fit Israel or the church, only the bride coz God outright says she is and revelation is about his marriage to Zion. Sorry if I offend anyone, I don't mean too, I just think it's right to think for ourselves and not be ashamed of it.
    Love to you all.
  7. When the scriptures mention liars and thieves and adulterers, etc, the reference is to unsaved people. Sin doesn't cause us as Christians, who are now free from the control of sin over our lives, to lose our place with God as His children, but sin does separate us from close fellowship with our Father, and there are warnings there about stepping into sin and becoming spiritually shipwrecked....but we are not judged for sin, as our sins have all been forgiven.

    As for Zion, it is simply a reference to both the geographical Jerusalem and to the spiritual Kingdom, the heavenly Jerusalem, of which we as believers are all citizens.

    Philippians 3:20
    But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior.
    Major, Softly and Cturtle says Amen and like this.
  8. A lot of what your describing is Grace. God chooses to forget our sin so that He can bless us and shower us with Love. Romans 9:23. No one goes to hell for lying, stealing or murdering someone. They go to hell for not accepting Jesus's Blood as payment for their sin.

    Picture you with your own child. Would you forgive your child every time they make a bad choice? Same with God. Its His love and grace. And you would not tell your child well you lied so i will not ever bless you with a new toy or bike or something special because you make to many bad choices, even though you are repentant. God knows we are not perfect like He has lots of grace for all of us..every race, nation, tribe, etc...

    Euphemia and Softly say Amen and like this.
  9. Thank you, beautiful explanation, I have a better understanding and true appreciation now [emoji259]
    Cturtle likes this.
  10. @Softly something in your last long post i wanted to coment on. You said that you just think its right to think for ourselves..... one thing that you are forgetting is that every person on this earth must have a spiritual overloard. We are not soverign unto ourselves. So if one is not getting their thoughts from God, then they are coming from satan.

    Something else i wanted to share was that i have been praying about your questions. And as i believe the Holy Spirit led me to look up zion in my open Bible's Biblical Cyclopedic Index i see that zion means fortress. It is used literally for a few things (Jebusite fortress captured by David (2 Sam. 5:6-9); Place from which Solomon brings the ark (2 Chronicles 5:2); and an area that is occupied by the temple (Is 8:18). The other part is lists is how it is used figuratively of: Israel as a people of God (2 King 19:21); God's spiritual Kingdom (ps 125:1); Eternal city (Hebrews 12:22,28); and Heaven (Revelation 14:1) These are the Scriptural references that they give. I am going to do some digging around and see what else i can find. Maybe these will help you to find some peace. :)

    Blessings of grace and peace be yours in abundance
    Softly and Euphemia say Amen and like this.
  11. Thanks [emoji4] I was reading last night that Zion also means "parched place", a guiding pillar, a signpost, a monument in a dry desert wilderness and the term "sides of the north" where Zion is said to be, means hidden, dark, gloomy, and unknown. It is taken from another word that means to hide by covering, and it is used figuratively to deny or to protect.
    The other thing is zion has two directions, to the south and to the north, one is a physical city and the other a spiritual one, I have to triple check on the verses and context but thought it interesting to note.
    It's interesting stuff [emoji4]
    We are told to rightly divide the word, or to think and consider, not outside or against the word of God, but within it, I agree. I'm trying to see what's there and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I don't care, it's just interesting and caught my eye.
    Love to you [emoji178]
  12. Oh i fully agree it is interesting :) i was not sure how to respond when i first read your original post. But as i thought about things and prayed...i began to ask God to help you to find the truth. Because i have known many people that don't grow or they go to another place to find answers to their questions. I didn't want for you to go without your answers, and i don't want to see you be misguided by wrong information either. You are a very important part of God's Kingdom! So i was very grateful that Euphemia started the ball rolling so to speak :)
    Love to you as well
    Softly likes this.
  13. You guys are the best [emoji307]
    It got my attention and curiosity coz God says it is a physical woman, 'I liken the daughter of Zion to a beautiful and delicate woman'. We assume it's a city but God says its a woman, not even women, woman and Jesus says 'wow to those who give suck in those days' and the bride of Christ gives birth in revelation.
    I understand the analogy with a physical city, but it is also said to be in both the north and south, it's just interesting and curious to me and I'm wondering what God meant.
    Love always [emoji173]️
  14. Id it possible for you to give references to the things that you said above? As i read the part about to those who give reminds me of the pain that nursing mothers will feel if they are not believers and God raptures the church and the baby goes also.

    Giving birth in revelation says to me....the new heaven and the new earth, which also applies to the north and south.
  15. Where does it say in Revelation that the Church gives birth?
  16. Ok I looked up the liken the daughter of zion to a woman. Its in Jeremiah 6:2

    Daughter is used as in terms of relationship and figuratively...means the apple of God's eye.
    Tsijon is a permanent capital or mountain of Jerusalem
    Comely is at home, or by implication... lovely.... a home of God or dwelling place
    Delicate is to be soft or pliable....luxurious

    In the HiSB it does not say says the comely (nâveh) and delicate ('ânag) compare (dâmâh) the daughter (bath) of zion (tsîyôn) ...and if we write it the way it is defined.....the sutible or beautiful and luxurious resembles a relationship with Jerusalem.

    The isv says "I'll destroy the lovely and delicate Daughter of Zion"

    The bbe says....the fair and delicate one, thr daughter of Zion, will be cut off by my hand.

    The easy english says....I will send enemies to destroy Jerusalem and its people. Its such a lovely city.

    The net says....I will destroy Daughter Zion, who is as delicate and defensless as a young maiden

    And all this was a prophecy that God spoke through Jeremiah because of Isreal's unfaithfulness to Him, and their wickedness
    Softly likes this.
  17. Revelation 12:2, 5

  18. Ahh...I figured that may have been the reference, but that is not a reference to the Church, but to Israel. Jesus established the Church, not the other way around. Revelation 12 describes Israel as the woman who strains to bring forth the Messiah.
    Cturtle and Softly say Amen and like this.
  19. I noticed the different interpretations, the KJV says Jeremiah 6:2
    "I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman" and doesn't mention destroying or harming her within the same sentence.
    The different interpretations make it confusing to interpret for a layman.

    I was worried that I was doing the wrong thing a few nights ago and Jesus walked up to me in a dream when I was doubting myself. I worry about doing things wrong by God.

    Thanks for listening and always being honest in your love for truth and people. [emoji178]
    Cturtle likes this.
  20. As i was defining the word liken in the kjv with the puzzled me because it means to cease and cut off the primitive root means to be dumb or silent hence to fail or perish transitively to destroy. The hebrew word is (dâmâh)...and it seemed to not fit. Until i read the verse in the other translatons

    If you have an android phone or tablet, i would suggest that you think about downloading the my sword for android. It has the strongs definitions for the kjv and lots of free modules (dictionaries, concordances, and a few books too) and is a great help to me. I had a different app and as i prayed about learning more...God led me to this app.

    I know that disappointing God is a concern, but He loves you and desires for you to have all the wisdom that He has. So as you seek Him first in everything, (relying on Him to reveal Himself, His wisdom and life)... and honor Him, and obey His commands to love and forgive (most important ones) then you can rest in the fact that you are pleasing to Him. Hebrews 11:6 says without faith (which you have) it is imposible to please God. It does not say if you are perfect and never make a mistake. He knows that we are all learning and that is why He sent Jesus to pay for our sins so that we can have His grace. Once i was able to grasp the grace has become much more freeing to walk with God.

    May Blessings of grace and peace surround you always! For you are a daughter of The Most High.
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